Catholic arguments against Universal Basic Income

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Read the book. But even if you don’t, why continue programs that have failed, and at the same time are putting future generations into insurmountable debt?
I am debating with you, not with Olasky. If you have a point to make that came from Olasky, then you make it. I still want you to tell when when in history there was ever a time when charities provided as much aid as government is providing now. But then, we both know there was no such time, don’t we? That leaves only a few possibilities:
  1. Take away government aid and see if people die or are helped by charity (risky social experiement).
  2. Admit that you think way too much aid is being given to the poor, and they can do without government aid and charity.
  3. Admit that government aid is serving a good purpose.
 
It sickens me to see the people who think that the mantle of victimhood gives them moral superiority over productive people.
The rich man and Lazarus. Which one sickens you? The rich man was probably very productive. That’s how he got rich. Lazarus was a victim. He did not think himself morally superior, but God did. And the rich man saw from afar how Lazarus was resting in the bosom of Abraham, while he was condemned to hell. So are you sickened by Lazarus or the rich man?
 
The rich man and Lazarus. Which one sickens you? The rich man was probably very productive. That’s how he got rich. Lazarus was a victim. He did not think himself morally superior, but God did. And the rich man saw from afar how Lazarus was resting in the bosom of Abraham, while he was condemned to hell. So are you sickened by Lazarus or the rich man?
Take note that the rich man was not forced to be charitable. But it is the rich man that sickens me. Why? Because for decades I have watched, as a teacher, the taxes of primarily the upper middle and upper classes carelessly wasted by government. The rich man had a chance to do good without interference from government

Jon
 
I am debating with you, not with Olasky. If you have a point to make that came from Olasky, then you make it. I still want you to tell when when in history there was ever a time when charities provided as much aid as government is providing now. But then, we both know there was no such time, don’t we? That leaves only a few possibilities:
  1. Take away government aid and see if people die or are helped by charity (risky social experiement).
  2. Admit that you think way too much aid is being given to the poor, and they can do without government aid and charity.
  3. Admit that government aid is serving a good purpose.
  1. it would be ludicrous to assume that an instantaneous halt of the current system could happen. But the social experiment of federal social welfare has already failed. Something must change because to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result is insanity
  2. too much “charity” has been given to the bureaucracy and progressive politicians who maintain this dependent voting block for their political ends. In the meantime, those in need in this country have been deprived true compassion, true charity because the tax burden and growing anti-church regulations, such as the HHS Mandate
  3. oh yes, it is serving a purpose, the one I mentioned in #2.
 
  1. it would be ludicrous to assume that an instantaneous halt of the current system could happen. But the social experiment of federal social welfare has already failed.
On the contrary, poor people are receiving aid.
  1. too much “charity” has been given to the bureaucracy and progressive politicians who maintain this dependent voting block for their political ends.
An uncharitable speculation on the motives of legislators.
In the meantime, those in need in this country have been deprived true compassion, true charity because the tax burden and growing anti-church regulations, such as the HHS Mandate
Nonsense. There is more prosperity now than in any period in history. If people cannot be charitable now, they never will be, despite tax burdens, which are more than offset by the improved standard of living for everyone. You keep hinting that people will be much more charitable if their tax burden is reduced, but so far have not presented any evidence this is so.
 
On the contrary, poor people are receiving aid.

An uncharitable speculation on the motives of legislators.

Nonsense. There is more prosperity now than in any period in history. If people cannot be charitable now, they never will be, despite tax burdens, which are more than offset by the improved standard of living for everyone. You keep hinting that people will be much more charitable if their tax burden is reduced, but so far have not presented any evidence this is so.
alec.org/app/uploads/2015/09/2015-State-Factor_Charitable-Giving.pdf
These strong findings indicate that charitable giving increases when the burden of government, through taxes, is reduced. This effect is three-fold. First, taxes reduce an individual’s in- come, leaving less income to donate to charity in a given year. Second, taxes reduce potential income growth that could have resulted in subsequent charitable giving. Third, taxes pay for public services and citizens may decide that they are already paying their share of social spending through taxes and decline to contribute to charity, thus “crowding out” charitable donations. While it is clear that tax reductions do not necessarily translate into loss of government services— there are many ways that governments can spend tax reve- nues more efficiently—it is certainly relevant that when taxes are reduced, charitable organizations are likely to offset re- ductions in public benefits.
I’ll respond to you charge in the second part later
 
On the contrary, poor people are receiving aid.

An uncharitable speculation on the motives of legislators.

Nonsense. There is more prosperity now than in any period in history. If people cannot be charitable now, they never will be, despite tax burdens, which are more than offset by the improved standard of living for everyone. You keep hinting that people will be much more charitable if their tax burden is reduced, but so far have not presented any evidence this is so.
I agree with you, a study was done that people were less charitable when their tax burden was reduced !
The government has a large impact on consumer’s willingness to donate through the tax effect. The government’s tax rate directly affects the price of donating. The price of donating is represented by the equation Price= 1-Tp where Tp is the marginal income tax rate facing the potential donor who itemizes his contribution to a tax-deductible organization. This suggests that as the government reduces the tax rate, consumers will donate less because the costs savings of tax-deductible donations is reduced. Weisbrod and Dominguez (1986) broaden the definition of price by emphasizing the price of giving a dollar’s worth of output. Price is represented by the equation, Price= (1-T)/ (1-(A+F)), where (1-(A+F)) represents the amount the donor must pay the nonprofit for the marginal dollar of output. Price can therefore adjust when the government changes the tax rate or when a nonprofit changes its efficiency by reducing its overhead costs.
The government in 1981, under the Reagan administration, made several tax reductions. The maximum tax rate was reduced from 70% to 50%, and marginal tax rates were reduced by 25%. These reductions allow us to analyze the effects of the tax cuts. Salamon and Clotfelter (1981) constructed a model using the Statistics of Income provided by the IRS to test the effects of the 1981 tax cut on charitable donations. According to their model, under constant income and price elasticities, they project that the tax act will depress individual giving, continuing the decline of charitable giving as a percentage of income that began in the 1970’s. Donations in the years to follow did increase; however, data suggests that if the 1981 tax act had not been enacted, donations would have been 14.2 billion dollars greater. This shows the astonishing effect that the government can have in the nonprofit market, and that future tax cuts could be detrimental to the nonprofit sector.
 
I agree with you, a study was done that people were less charitable when their tax burden was reduced !
The government has a large impact on consumer’s willingness to donate through the tax effect. The government’s tax rate directly affects the price of donating. The price of donating is represented by the equation Price= 1-Tp where Tp is the marginal income tax rate facing the potential donor who itemizes his contribution to a tax-deductible organization. This suggests that as the government reduces the tax rate, consumers will donate less because the costs savings of tax-deductible donations is reduced. Weisbrod and Dominguez (1986) broaden the definition of price by emphasizing the price of giving a dollar’s worth of output. Price is represented by the equation, Price= (1-T)/ (1-(A+F)), where (1-(A+F)) represents the amount the donor must pay the nonprofit for the marginal dollar of output. Price can therefore adjust when the government changes the tax rate or when a nonprofit changes its efficiency by reducing its overhead costs.
The government in 1981, under the Reagan administration, made several tax reductions. The maximum tax rate was reduced from 70% to 50%, and marginal tax rates were reduced by 25%. These reductions allow us to analyze the effects of the tax cuts. Salamon and Clotfelter (1981) constructed a model using the Statistics of Income provided by the IRS to test the effects of the 1981 tax cut on charitable donations. According to their model, under constant income and price elasticities, they project that the tax act will depress individual giving, continuing the decline of charitable giving as a percentage of income that began in the 1970’s. Donations in the years to follow did increase; however, data suggests that if the 1981 tax act had not been enacted, donations would have been 14.2 billion dollars greater. This shows the astonishing effect that the government can have in the nonprofit market, and that future tax cuts could be detrimental to the nonprofit sector.
Cite your study. Mine is cited above that shows reduced tax burden leads to greater charitable giving.
 
When looking at data like this, one can make the mistake of drawing an equivalence between charitable giving and helping those in need. For instance, when we see a statistic that says an X dollar cut in taxes results in a Y dollar increase in charitable giving, we tend to think of those Y dollars as going to help the poor. But not all of that money goes to help the poor. In fact, for religious people, probably the largest part of their charitable donation is used to support directly their own church infrastructure. That is, to pay the electric bill, the heating bill, the building maintenance, the staff salaries. This is all good and laudable, and does facilitate the spreading of the gospel. But it does not replace material assistance for those in need. Of course, the X dollars that was not collected as tax would not have all gone to help the poor either. In fact, I will even allow that a dollar spent by government to help the poor actually provides half the actual aid as if a charity has spent that dollar. But since the ultimate question we are trying to answer is will the poor get as much aid if taxes are cut along with government aid programs, such considerations cannot be ignored. And your study does ignore them. But then, that study was not intending to answer the specific question we have been discussing, so I will not blame the study.

So with that in mind, what does your study say about the relationship between X and Y? Perhaps you can clarify something for me. In the Executive Summary in that study you cited, it says, among other things:
By examining various tax burdens and tax rates with rigorous economic analysis, this paper’s research findings show that a 1 percent increase in the personal income tax burden is associated with 0.35 percent decrease in charitable giving per dollar of state income.
Does the 1 percent mean 1% of the income tax or 1% of the income? That is, does it represent a jump in the effective tax rate from 20% to 21% or from 20% to 20.2%? Similarly, does the 0.35% mean a 0.35% drop in the total donations? Or is it 0.35% of the donation rate? I wish they had expressed the statistic in unambiguous terms. As it is, I find it difficult to answer this question: “If 1 billion dollars more are collected in taxes, how many fewer dollars will be donated to charity?”

Another thing to consider is non-linearity. The implication of the Executive Summary is that taxes and donations are linearly correlated. That is, whatever happens due to a 1 billion dollar tax cut, the effect will be twice as much if 2 billion dollars of taxes are cut. This is important because the study talks about small changes in taxes and resulting small changes in donations. How do we know if that relationship scales up? I suspect the effect flattens out for larger tax cuts. That is, once someone has reached the point where they no longer feel smothered by taxes, additional tax cuts probably have little additional effect. The greatest correlation is probably at the beginning, as a person transitions from feeling overwhelmed to feeling not overwhelmed. And since the amount of charitable giving we would need to replace all of government aid is huge, we would need this correlation to hold well beyond small changes.

Actually, I never did doubt that there was a cause and effect connection between tax rates and charitable donations. I just questioned whether that connection was big enough to do the job you are hoping it would do. Unfortunately, the study you cited does not answer that question. But thanks for citing an actual study, rather than just guessing (as I have done:o)
 
Cite your study. Mine is cited above that shows reduced tax burden leads to greater charitable giving.
You got me interested in the subject matter, I was reading across the Internet and came across two academia papers that referenced the impact of the Reagan Tax cuts on charitable giving. One was from the University of Wisconsin. A discussion paper on a study done by Burton Weisbrod & Nestor Dominquez that referenced Clotfelter & Salamon as the source. I think if you google IRP Discussion Papers Weisbrod & Dominquez it should pop up (page 4 of 32 and page 27 of 32).
The second was from a paper from the University of Puget Sound that referenced the source coming from Susan Rose-Ackerman from her book "The Economics of Non-Profit Institutions ", New York, New York Oxford University Press,1986, page 158.

This is a very complex issue dealing with government, Individualism, and human nature on poverty issues. To change course will open up a whole new can of worms. Comples issues like people choosing to donate all their money to liberal charities like Planned Parent Hood vs Conservative charities. There will be fierce competitions among charities in solicitation of funds. There will be hidden costs not planned upon in such a change where the poor in the end will get poorer. In the current process the Misers and the Scrooges of the world have to contribute through taxes.
 
=LeafByNiggle;14173240]On the contrary, poor people are receiving aid.
People are not receiving what they need in order to not have to receive aid. They’ve been receiving aid for two and three generations, and they still need aid. What the government gives is only perpetuating their need for aid.
An uncharitable speculation on the motives of legislators.
It is interesting that, on a couple of occasions in this thread, my motives were questioned,…
** "You are entitled to your far right opinion of ‘Let them eat cake’… "**
, and you didn’t seem to be concerned about that. No matter. It takes more than that to bother me, as I’ve heard the like for decades.

That said, I think it is fair to speculate on what is seen, that being the progressive policies continue to perpetuate and not improve poverty, that progressive politicians continue, in every election cycle, to accuse those of us who actually want to bring about a new way of doing what ought to be done instead of what is now being done of “wanting to throw grandma off a cliff”, “let them eat cake”, etc., accuse us of being racist, etc., accuse us of being “deplorables”, in order to win re-election.
No, I don’t think my observation is even speculative, and I certainly don’t think it uncharitable, at least by comparison.

Jon
 
You got me interested in the subject matter, I was reading across the Internet and came across two academia papers that referenced the impact of the Reagan Tax cuts on charitable giving. One was from the University of Wisconsin. A discussion paper on a study done by Burton Weisbrod & Nestor Dominquez that referenced Clotfelter & Salamon as the source. I think if you google IRP Discussion Papers Weisbrod & Dominquez it should pop up (page 4 of 32 and page 27 of 32).
The second was from a paper from the University of Puget Sound that referenced the source coming from Susan Rose-Ackerman from her book "The Economics of Non-Profit Institutions ", New York, New York Oxford University Press,1986, page 158.

This is a very complex issue dealing with government, Individualism, and human nature on poverty issues. To change course will open up a whole new can of worms. Comples issues like people choosing to donate all their money to liberal charities like Planned Parent Hood vs Conservative charities. There will be fierce competitions among charities in solicitation of funds. There will be hidden costs not planned upon in such a change where the poor in the end will get poorer. In the current process the Misers and the Scrooges of the world have to contribute through taxes.
I agree that it is a complex issue, and it doesn’t simply have to do with tax rates. It also has to do with the perception that someone else is doing it (the government), therefore I don’t have to. This perception is so strong that even church communions buy into it. The ELCA allows one to claim income tax paid as part of their tithe.
And it is here that I concede that I could be wrong: if the Christian communions in the United States are willing to cede to government our response to Christ’s call that we care for the least of His children, then we are indeed in trouble. As Alexis de Tocqueville said, **“America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.” ** If we fail to heed his warning, our constitutional representative republic is doomed to become an authoritarian state.

Jefferson is alleged to have said,** “A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have.”**
Whether or not he did, the sentence is true.

Jon
 
People are not receiving what they need in order to not have to receive aid. They’ve been receiving aid for two and three generations, and they still need aid. What the government gives is only perpetuating their need for aid.
OK, then it is as I suspected. You believe too much aid is given for too long.
It is interesting that, on a couple of occasions in this thread, my motives were questioned,…
** "You are entitled to your far right opinion of ‘Let them eat cake’… "**
, and you didn’t seem to be concerned about that.
Classic example of “argument from silence”.
That said, I think it is fair to speculate on what is seen, that being the progressive policies continue to perpetuate and not improve poverty…
Jesus did say “the poor you will always have”. But there is no evidence that conservative policies improve poverty, so I would not be too quick to blame progressive policies for not improving poverty. But are you sure things have gotten worse with progressive policies? Take a look at the lower graph in this article and see if you can spot the progressive policy years in the last half century. The only significant change in the poverty rate is the marked decline throughout the 1960’s, which if I remember correctly was the height of progressive policies. Then in the Regan years and the Gingrich years I see essentially no change. Then in the Bill Clinton years I see a slight decline in the poverty rate. In the Obama years there was an increase, but it was nothing like the decrease in the 1960’s, and one could argue that the collapse of the housing market was the cause of that increase - which is a process that began in the Bush years, and which still leaves the poverty rate at only 14.9% in 2014 and 14.8% in 2015. With figures like these it is hard to make a case one way or the other than progressive policies cause poverty.
 
If the Christian communions in the United States are willing to cede to government our response to Christ’s call that we care for the least of His children, then we are indeed in trouble.
👍 I agree.
Jefferson is alleged to have said,** “A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have.”**
Whether or not he did, the sentence is true.
Well, the sentence is true, but what conclusion can we draw from it? It seems the conclusion you would like to draw is the advice not to allow government to get that big, and so avoid the possibility of having everything taken away from you.

But think about it a minute. How big a government does it take to be able to take everything away from you? Actually, this can happen with small to medium sized governments too. Even a government as small as a small town could, in theory, pass oppressive laws and confiscate your home, your property, and put you in jail and take away your freedom. So if the purpose of keeping the Federal Government small is to avoid the possibility of having everything taken away from you by government, that purpose is not served by limiting the size of government. Now there may be other good reasons for limiting the size of government, but this is not one of them.
 
=LeafByNiggle;14175189]OK, then it is as I suspected. You believe too much aid is given for too long.
An uncharitable speculation on the motives of-] legislators/-] this poster.
Actually, what I said is the aid they really truly need is different than what they’ve been given over the last 50 years. I made no comment about too much or not enough. What I am saying is it isn’t the right kind to be effective to give them a chance to escape poverty.
Jesus did say “the poor you will always have”. But there is no evidence that conservative policies improve poverty, so I would not be too quick to blame progressive policies for not improving poverty. But are you sure things have gotten worse with progressive policies?
that Jesus said it doesn’t mean we should settle for it. We should do all we can as individuals and churches to ease suffering and help them rise up out of poverty.
Take a look at the lower graph in this article and see if you can spot the progressive policy years in the last half century. The only significant change in the poverty rate is the marked decline throughout the 1960’s, which if I remember correctly was the height of progressive policies. Then in the Regan years and the Gingrich years I see essentially no change. Then in the Bill Clinton years I see a slight decline in the poverty rate. In the Obama years there was an increase, but it was nothing like the decrease in the 1960’s, and one could argue that the collapse of the housing market was the cause of that increase - which is a process that began in the Bush years, and which still leaves the poverty rate at only 14.9% in 2014 and 14.8% in 2015. With figures like these it is hard to make a case one way or the other than progressive policies cause poverty.
There have been no attempts, with any success at least, of moving away from federal social spending since the New Deal programs, expanding then with the Great Society. One could argue that the sixties were also at the height of the Viet Nam war, and I don’t think either of us is particularly fond of prosperity through war.

But let’s look at the Obama “recovery”:
  1. Labor force participation at it’s lowest in 40 years - over 94 million out of work
  2. Real household income at a 40 year low.
  3. 44 million left to depend on food stamps because of the Obama economy.
  4. Nearly $11,000,000,000,000 added to the debt of our children and grandchildren. With this much deficit spending, the economy should be sizzling, overheating.
Please, compare this record to the only economy that even approaches conservative in my lifetime - Reagan.
 
An uncharitable speculation on the motives of-] legislators/-] this poster.
Actually, what I said is the aid they really truly need is different than what they’ve been given over the last 50 years. I made no comment about too much or not enough. What I am saying is it isn’t the right kind to be effective to give them a chance to escape poverty.
Then would it be correct to say that you believe that too much money is being spent on aid - irrespective of the kind of the aid given? Regardless of the form you think that aid should take, one can still ask that question without making any assumptions about how that money is or should be spent.
that Jesus said it doesn’t mean we should settle for it. We should do all we can as individuals and churches to ease suffering and help them rise up out of poverty.
I agree. But the mere existence of poverty itself need not constitute a failure on the part of progressive policies, as I think you were implying. How else can you support the idea that progressive policies have failed in the area of poverty. All indications are that in that area, at least, those policies have not failed any worse than anyone else’s policies.
There have been no attempts, with any success at least, of moving away from federal social spending since the New Deal programs, expanding then with the Great Society. One could argue that the sixties were also at the height of the Viet Nam war, and I don’t think either of us is particularly fond of prosperity through war.
So if all of US history since 1933 has been dominated by progressive policies, where can we look for examples of successful poverty policy in history?
But let’s look at the Obama “recovery”:
  1. Labor force participation at it’s lowest in 40 years - over 94 million out of work
Labor force participation could be improved by rolling back progressive policies like child labor laws that prevent children from working. Yeah, let’s do that!
  1. Real household income at a 40 year low.
This article does not seem to support that trend. But if you are using as your baseline, the time immediately after WWII, household income would be unnaturally high then because the rest of the industrialized world was devastated by the war, leaving the US as the only one relatively untouched, and in a great position to benefit from that unique position.
  1. Nearly $11,000,000,000,000 added to the debt of our children and grandchildren. With this much deficit spending, the economy should be sizzling, overheating.
This says nothing about current poverty levels, although it might say something about future poverty levels.
 
The rich man and Lazarus. Which one sickens you? The rich man was probably very productive. That’s how he got rich. Lazarus was a victim. He did not think himself morally superior, but God did. And the rich man saw from afar how Lazarus was resting in the bosom of Abraham, while he was condemned to hell. So are you sickened by Lazarus or the rich man?
It is a fictional story. You can ascribe whatever traits you want to the characters and write your own fanfiction. For all we know he might have been a crony capitalist who got his money working for the common good as determined by the omniscient state.

A major takeaway is that Lazarus did not get the Romans to forcibly redistribute his neighbor’s wealth You know, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods,” is part of being a good person.
 
Do you really think that was the reason Jesus told the story of the rich man and Lazarus? Most people get an entirely different takeaway than the one you got.
You sad he was a good person. I just pointed out what being a good person entails. I did not say it was the only lesson to be drawn from that story

I do not expect others to interpret the Bible similarly. Most people erroneously believe that concern with rational self-interest is inherently evil. They forget that Jesus told them to love their neighbor as they love themselves, which necessitates a healthy regard for the self.
 
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