Catholic attending Coptic Orthodox Church...still Catholic?

[XXI_4]

I found something explicit, but it isn’t from the CCEO. It is from a Pontifical Council “Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism”, found on the Vatican website.

I still believe there is something explicit in the CCEO that I haven’t found yet, or that I am senile. Either one is possible

(Note the quotes are in the original document, and refer to various other documents. Bold text is my emphasis).

Sharing in Sacramental Life, especially the Eucharist

a) Sharing in Sacramental Life with members of the various Eastern Churches

1. Between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches not in full communion with it, there is still a very close communion in matters of faith.Moreover, “through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature” and “although separated from us, these Churches still possess true sacraments, above all—by apostolic succession—the priesthood and the Eucharist…”. This offers ecclesiological and sacramental grounds, according to the understanding of the Catholic Church, for allowing and even encouraging some sharing in liturgical worship, even of the Eucharist, with these Churches, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of church authorities”. It is recognized, however, that Eastern Churches, on the basis of their own ecclesiological understanding, may have more restrictive disciplines in this matter, which others should respect. Pastors should carefully instruct the faithful so that they will be clearly aware of the proper reasons for this kind of sharing in liturgical worship and of the variety of discipline which may exist in this connection.

There is this from the CCEO, which is interesting:

Canon 881 1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.

Now the divine praises means that we can attend Vespers or Orthos instead of liturgy and meet the obligation, if our particular church has that custom. But what’s odd here is that it doesn’t explicitly require Catholic divine liturgy. In contrast, CIC canon 1248 explicitly requires it to be a mass in a Catholic Rite:

A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

In the CCEO there is also this (read this and refer back to my first quote):

Canon 670 -§1. For a just cause Catholics can attend the liturgical worship of other Christians and take part in the same, observing those things which, by reason of the degree of communion with the Catholic Church, are established by the eparchial bishop or by a superior authority.

con’d

 

[XXI_4]

I think there is more that I am missing, but I’m getting tired. And I didn’t think I was going to end up writing a dissertation I might dig into this more tomorrow. There is also Orientale Lumen, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, the Instructions for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the CCEO, the Ecumenical Directory and other documents to go through. Bear in mind with all this that the Eastern Catholic hierarchy generally tends (I know I’m painting with a broad brush) to interpret the law more liberally and pastorally (spirit rather than letter).

At any rate, as an Eastern Catholic if I wanted to attend Orthodox Divine Liturgy, I would obviously discuss it with my pastor (which is why I stated in a previous post they should listen to their priest). If he approved it, I would discuss it with the Orthodox pastor (as the document notes, care should be taken to respect if they have more respective disciplines). So my pastor may say yes and it’s very possible that the Orthodox pastor will say not to approach for communion.

Hope this helps.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Hope this helps.

It does! Thank you very much!

 

[Traces95z]

Ok, now we are on board the same ship! My Latin Rite Catholic brother-in-law is NOT fulfilling his Sunday obligation. He effectively left the Catholic Church to attend only the Coptic Orthodox mass. That is why I am concerned.

My sister-in-law, as you have explained, is under different obligations apparently… Yet, she has not fulfilled her obligation to ascribe to the Eastern Catholic Church…She just decided to attend and raise her children in the Coptic Orthodox Church. So technically, she too is not fulfilling her Sunday obligation, not to mention she is Catholic and raising her children in a church in schism and not in full communion with the Catholic Church (be it Western rite or Eastern rite).

My wife asked me what I was doing on the computer. I tried to ignore her question but she persisted. I told her about this post and we got into another argument about it. She claims I should stop worrying about others “sins” and start worrying about my own. (Sigh!)

 

[Traces95z]

a) 122 is discussing only the validity of the Eucharist and other sacraments and the limited occasion where the Catholic may participate…which we already know and has nothing to do with the issue at hand which is in a nutshell, a Catholic REPLACING the Catholic Mass for the Orthodox Mass…or more simply, leaving the Catholic Church for the Orthodox Church.

Canon 881 1. discusses Eastern Rite Catholics not Eastern Orthodox. The divine liturgy seems to refer to the Church sui iuris, which is the Eastern Catholic Rite church a person belongs to. Does not apply to my in-laws since they are not Eastern Catholic.

Canon 670-1, explicitly states “for just cause”. Indeed if you can’t find a Catholic Church somewhere for example, and can only attend an orthodox church then it is licit to do so.

 

[ziapueblo]

There are a good number of Byzantine Catholics that commune in Orthodox Churches. Some of my Byzantine Catholic friends do this regularly. Of course, it depends on the sui juris Church and particular Orthodox Church. For example, in the Middle East (as I have heard from others), there is often intercommunion between Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox, as well as some places here in the US between these two Churches. I’m not saying it happens all the time, but more often than we might think.

I told her about this post and we got into another argument about it.

I think keeping a sound marriage is more important than being concerned about your in-laws. (My two cents) Many Eastern Catholics seem to have a different mindset than Latin Catholics. They see, for example, the Coptic Catholic Church and Coptic Orthodox Church as the same Church, only there is an issue with “upper management.”

ZP

 

[XXI_4]

Yet, she has not fulfilled her obligation to ascribe to the Eastern Catholic Church

Ascription is a term in canon law that refers to which church a person canonically belongs, i.e. their membership. It is automatic. She didn’t need to do anything.

Does not apply to my in-laws since they are not Eastern Catholic.

I still think your Sister-in-law, if she did not request a change of ascription, is Eastern Catholic.

There are a good number of Byzantine Catholics that commune in Orthodox Churches. Some of my Byzantine Catholic friends do this regularly. Of course, it depends on the sui juris Church and particular Orthodox Church. For example, in the Middle East (as I have heard from others), there is often intercommunion between Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox,

I agree with this. @Traces95z, you are trying to interpret Eastern Canon law with a Western mindset. It’s like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. I reiterate what I said above, generally speaking, the Eastern churches and hierarchy tends to interpret the law to the spirit rather than the letter, and rather liberally.

I tried to ignore her question but she persisted. I told her about this post and we got into another argument about it

I’m honestly concerned about this. You’re not going to get matter-of-fact reliable answers here from me or anyone else. I’m not a pastor or a canon lawyer. And even if I was a priest and a canon lawyer, I wouldn’t be able to give you a 100% answer without being familiar with the people and all the particulars. And maybe not even then. Pastoral discretion is a thing.

This situation, if you really feel the need to pursue it despite the implications in your marriage, needs to be handled by your in-laws’ pastor. My last-resort suggestion is to contact the chancery and see if you can get someone there to help you sort it out.

They have spoken to two priest friends who said it was okay to go to the Coptic Mass instead of the Catholic Mass; I know this is wrong advice. I have spoken to two priests who said they were wrong with one saying to just be patient and bring it up one day when you gain their trust and get the opportunity and that having a riff with my wife is not in my best interests.

Even the priests can’t agree. You’re not going to resolve this here. And I agree with the last line. I think you should drop this and pray for your in-laws every day. Invite them to mass, gently.

I’m going to drop out of this discussion, I really don’t see it being spiritually edifying for anyone at this point. I will remember you and your family in my prayers today, and I hope you all find a peaceful resolution to this.

Gob bless.

 

[Traces95z]

The problem with my sibling in-laws is that one is of Latin rite and the other is a converted Catholic from Coptic Orthodoxy who apparently is by default now a Coptic Catholic but who attends Coptic Orthodox masses. They still consider themselves Catholic but you can’t be a member of two different faiths simultaneously. Either you believe the Pope is the Vicar of Christ and head of the visible Church, and you believe Mary was immaculately conceived, and you believe and emphasize the theology of mortal sin, and abide by Catholic canon law or you don’t. On top of all this, they are supposed Catholics who now are raising their four children in the Orthodox church.

What it means is that to keep my wife happy, I should let my sibling in-laws leave the Catholic Church, violate the holy day of obligation, and thus unworthily receive holy communion when they attend Catholic mass on holidays. I don’t know, this issue feels so much more important to their souls than me keeping my wife from getting upset with me. I mean, if my wife gets so upset at me for wanting to show love and concern for the souls of her relatives, then it is really her obligation to acquiesce to my good intentions. But she would not so it would be a risk or sacrifice for a good cause if I intend to follow through.

 

[Elf01]

What it means is that to keep my wife happy, I should let my sibling in-laws leave the Catholic Church, violate the holy day of obligation, and thus unworthily receive holy communion when they attend Catholic mass on holidays. I don’t know, this issue feels so much more important to their souls than me keeping my wife from getting upset with me. I mean, if my wife gets so upset at me for wanting to show love and concern for the souls of her relatives, then it is really her obligation to acquiesce to my good intentions. But she would not so it would be a risk or sacrifice for a good cause if I intend to follow through.

How effective do you expect to actually be in getting them to return to Mass?

 

[Jbrady]

I mean, if my wife gets so upset at me for wanting to show love and concern for the souls of her relatives, then it is really her obligation to acquiesce to my good intentions.

Your wife is upset because you are intruding where you have absolutely no legitimate business, and where you have been specifically and unambiguously told not to venture, for good reason.

This isn’t your problem in any sense of the word. You are not responsible for your in-laws. Leave it in God’s hands. And stop messing with your wife’s intimate and private family matters, or you may destroy your own marriage.

Again, this isn’t your problem, and you have no right to interfere. Just drop the matter, and never mention it again to your wife or in-laws, or anyone else.

Oh, and apologize profusely to your wife.

 

[Traces95z]

Okay, thanks for the advice and the time. I learned something.

 

[Traces95z]

Probably not effective but should they continue in ignorance?

 

[Traces95z]

That is a simplistic view of the matter. I am a member of this family and we are a close family. I see them weekly and have helped babysit their children since they were babies. I have every right to be concerned about their welfare, especially as it relates to the state of their souls. If we go by your thinking, then let us stop all evangelization and view everyone’s spirituality as “none of our business”.

Thanks for your comment.

 

[Elf01]

Probably not effective but should they continue in ignorance?

I assume you’ve told them and they haven’t listened.

Pray for them. If yoy think there is a good chance of them listening take it. In the meantime you’ve done what you can.

 

[Traces95z]

I have not. I only asked my brother-in-law once why he is going to Orthodox masses instead of Catholic masses. He said it was because the Orthodox priest gave communion to his twin girls while they where incubated, and I left it at that. I’m presuming that he and his wife feel a sense of gratitude to the orthodox priest…and to God…for the healing of the twins. Certainly only God knows their heart, but again, you don’t leave the Catholic Church because a Coptic Orthodox priest gave communion to your sick babies.

 

[Jbrady]

I am a member of this family and we are a close family. I see them weekly and have helped babysit their children since they were babies. I have every right to be concerned about their welfare, especially as it relates to the state of their souls.

That gives you precisely zero authority over them. They are not under your rule, nor does your relation make you in any way responsible or accountable for the state of their souls. Your wife isn’t even responsible for them. They are grown adults, and are free to make their own choices. Whether you agree with them or not is immaterial.

If we go by your thinking, then let us stop all evangelization and view everyone’s spirituality as “none of our business”.

Jesus VERY SPECIFICALLY and IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS said, “Don’t bug people who tell you to bug off”. Shake the dust from your sandals and leave them in God’s hands.

Evangelization does not mean going where you are very clearly not wanted. you are not evangelizing". You are intruding on other people’s private matters, without being invited to do so, and in spite of being clearly told not to do so.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I would follow the pastoral advice of the priest, not to nag, but to work on your family relationships (for their own sakes because you love them for themselves, not that you’re hoping to convert them).

There is NOTHING stopping you from praying for them and learning everything you can about Catholicism in the meantime

 

[Elf01]

I have not. I only asked my brother-in-law once why he is going to Orthodox masses instead of Catholic masses. He said it was because the Orthodox priest gave communion to his twin girls while they where incubated. I’m presuming that he and his wife feel a sense of gratitude to the orthodox priest…and to God…for the healing of the twins. Certainly only God knows their heart, but again, you don’t leave the Catholic Church because a Coptic priest gave communion to your sick babies.

In that case letting them know that their obligation is to attend a Catholic rite would be appropriate if you are prepared to have your wife mad at you for it.

 

[whatistrue]

I have every right to be concerned about their welfare, especially as it relates to the state of their souls.

To be concerned about, absolutely. To interfere and nag and insert yourself into their business, absolutely not. You mentioned it (which is fine depending on how) and were basically told to leave it be, so just leave it be and pray in private.

 

[Traces95z]

“Under my rule”, “authority”, “responsiblity”, “intruding”?? What are you talking about? Those are some loaded words that do not apply here.

Though no one has authority over them, you seem to imply that my wife does have authority…over them listening to me or me telling them.

Also, I haven’t even confronted them with my objections so there is no nagging being done nor “bugging off” being requested.

Please reread early posts…perhaps you don’t quite understand what I am asking.