Catholic attending Coptic Orthodox Church...still Catholic?

[dochawk]

The Orthodox Church refers to their services as “masses” also. Not sure what you are driving at.

Not on this planet . . .

The Mass is a specific term for the Divine Liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church, coming from the latin word for “dismissal”.

It is not used, save for colloquially or from ignorance, for Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic, or Orthodox Divine Liturgies.

On the other hand we can’t participate in schismatic churches.

Nor can we refer to Orthodox as “schismatic” without thumbing our noses at that guy in the white beanie . . .

 

[Aulef]

Which guy?

 

[dochawk]

really ?

Is there a second guy in Rome that wears one?

emphasized text

 

[Aulef]

To be honest, I didn’t know the meaning of beanie.

Sorry, English isn’t my native language

 

[poche]

It may be that if he says something it will cause a rift in the family that may last for years. It could be that if he says something it will be useless. Sometimes the greater part of virtue is to remain silent.

 

[aroosi]

I don’t have the means to comment about the theology or the Canon Law about the situation you are discussing here but I find your intense interest in your sil (presumed) sin a bit obsessive. It looks like you are in a personal crusade to prove your point to your wife and sil. You can certainly inform them about your take on the situation but don’t forget that ultimately it is their conscience and their relationship with God. They will answer for their own choices and only God knows what is in their hearts. Once you told them what you think about it, move on, keep loving them and praying for them and worry mostly about your own sins.

 

[Traces95z]

My wife’s former Coptic church does refer to their services as Masses. Let’s not quibble about terminology. You seem to be trying to prove something by knit-picking. You believe the Eastern Rite Catholic and Orthodox Churches are interchangeable…that a Catholic in good conscience can REPLACE the Catholic mass with the Orthodox Church mass. (Not even addressing the fact the husband in the case is actually a Latin Rite Catholic). Your reasoning is that it is the same faith while admitting it is a different church. The Catholic Church disagrees with you. It appears that you have run out of constructive points to make.

 

[Traces95z]

How have I “obsessed”? I haven’t even mentioned my concern to them yet. I’m simply trying to discern whether I should inform them that they are not only violating Canon Law but from what I have researched, are objectively committing mortal sin by leaving the Catholic Church for the Coptic Orthodox Church. I have mentioned it to my wife but not to my sister/brother-in-law.
My take is that as a loving relative, Christ would want me to “admonish the sinner” and “inform the ignorant”. As a loving family member, I want my fellow Catholic family members to remain in Christ’s one true church. Instead they effectively left it by going to Orthodox masses and raising their children in this valid, though schismatic church.

Also, if we always said, “Its up to them and God”, then where do we fit evangelization?

Thanks.

 

[Traces95z]

Or…by speaking out, their souls may be saved from mortal sin.

 

[Traces95z]

My wife’s former Coptic Orthodox Church calls their services, “masses”.

Though a valid church, the Orthodox church is by definition schismatic.

 

[Aristotelian2]

Hey Trace,
That is a tricky situation. If I were in your situation, I would try to bring it up occasionally, and carry out a discussion, in Christian Charity. I would not be too concerned with the state of their souls, as it was done as an act of gratitude, with the best of intentions. As for the girls, they are still below the age of reason, and as long as they are raised with the love of God, and the desire for Truth, at least something is right! You are 100% right with your concerns however. It would of course be best to see them come into the fullness of truth asap, but until then, pray for them, and be the best influence to the girls that you can. If they have been baptized, and raised with the sacraments, they will surely be called home!

 

[ziapueblo]

Let’s not quibble about terminology.

The term “Mass” comes from the Latin, Ite, missa est (“Go, it is the sending [dismissal]”). That phrase is not found at all in the Eastern Divine Liturgy, therefore, it is not the “Mass.”

ZP

 

[Traces95z]

I said they call it the mass. Stop quibbling…terminology of the mass has absolutely zero to do with my post. Thanks.

 

[Traces95z]

Finally, a thoughtful response to my original post.

I am not concerned about the souls of the four children since they are innocent. But of course they will not possess the fullness of faith.

A Catholic who deliberately misses one mass is in the state of mortal sin and is required to seek repentance. Do we then say to another Catholic that it is okay to no longer attend Catholic mass because an Orthodox priest did a favor for them? Are their souls not also in jeopardy? Should they continue in ignorance or should they be informed that, though their intentions may have been “good”, their actions were ill-advised and a violation of Canon Law…and they should return to Christ’s one church?

And does my advisement overrule my wife’s objections that I do so, as there is indeed a risk of alienating her sister and brother-in-law husband to some degree?

 

[TheTomist]

A Catholic who deliberately misses one mass is in the state of mortal sin and is required to seek repentance. Do we then say to another Catholic that it is okay to no longer attend Catholic mass because an Orthodox priest did a favor for them? Are their souls not also in jeopardy? Should they continue in ignorance or should they be informed that, though their intentions may have been “good”, their actions were ill-advised and a violation of Canon Law…and they should return to Christ’s one church?

So, you know the three things necessary to make a sin mortal? 1) The act must be seriously wrong, or considered seriously wrong 2) the sinner must intend to do wrong 3)it must be with their full consent.
Now, it sounds to me like your in-laws were not intending to do wrong. So I do not think you need to worry about the state of their souls. Of course we want to see them in the fullness of Truth, and I think it is important to still strive to bring them back to the Church. As for your wife’s objections, I believe that you need to make that decision yourself, between yourselves, and God. If your in-laws are strong in Faith, and are seeking the Truth, they will find it eventually. “Knock, and the door shall be opened; seek, and ye shall find.”

 

[poche]

A lot would depend on what making a major issue of this would do. If saying something would do any good then by all means say something. However if making a huge issue out of this has the potential of causing a rift between your family and your sister in law. It could cause problems with your wife and could cause problems for your marriage. I can’t see into the souls of your sister in law but I could see that possibly she is not in sin if she is acting according to her conscience and you have the likelihood of loosing more by bad feelings and arguments than you would gain by your witness to the truth in this case. True wisdom is to speak when it will do the most good, to remain silent when speaking would be a waste of time and knowing when is when.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Should I discuss this issue with my them despite my wife’s admonition in doing so?

I think that it would be fine to discuss this with them once. Gently and politely raise the issue, but if they don’t want to get into it with you, drop it. If they hear you out but keep going to the Coptic Church, let it go.

It’s fine to bring it up, but at a certain point you have to accept that they are adults and you’re not their spiritual director. The fact that your wife is already suspicious about what you’re doing on the computer and is annoyed about this topic suggests to me that this has become a bit of an obsession for you and you won’t stop going on about it. If you do talk to them, be prepared to let it go after that.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

My wife’s former Coptic Orthodox Church calls their services, “masses”.

Interesting. I never heard of any Eastern Christians do it. It is true that here they do not get offended if someone calls it the Mass, but thry wouldn’t do it themselves. They also use more Slavonic word for Church and not common Slovak word, but using common one would turn no heads.

Anyway I recommend calling it Liturgy on this forum. Some people can get quite offended by it.

Nor can we refer to Orthodox as “schismatic” without thumbing our noses at that guy in the white beanie . . .

What do you mean exactly? They are by all means in Schism and Popes never contradicted that. Even fact there is dialogue about unity between us and them shows they are indeed in Schism. They are separated brethren indeed.

Is there a second guy in Rome that wears one?

Pope Emeritus might qualify. You didn’t mention Rome originally either so youtube “Pope” Michael might qualify too

Sometimes the greater part of virtue is to remain silent.

It isn’t very good to tolerate it if he thinks they are doing wrong out of ignorance. I think best advice is:

You can certainly inform them about your take on the situation but don’t forget that ultimately it is their conscience and their relationship with God. They will answer for their own choices and only God knows what is in their hearts. Once you told them what you think about it, move on, keep loving them and praying for them and worry mostly about your own sins.

This is key. If they refuse your advice do not stop loving them, OP. Keep family peace and don’t mention it or be bitter about it.

So she’s supposed to be part of the Eastern Catholic church right? Through marriage?

Only if she converted to Catholicism.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

It could be both. If she converted she would be part of corresponding Oriental Catholic Church, but during Marriage one can change into Sui Iuris Church of the Spouse freely (also, if marriage ends [by death] then she could just freely return). It is unclear if she did or did not do this.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Then it is very likely she is part of his Church. That would make most sense in this situation.