Catholic Bible vs King James and others

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I’m really enjoying this discussion. I hope it retains the air of repectful debate I’ve seen so far, though I know that both sides will not budge much.

Wikipedia, While maybe not the best source had this to say about Luther’s view on new testiment Books.

The reason I highlighted the last line is this.
I assume that Protestants believe that Luther was inspired by the Holy Spirit to save Christ’s Church from a the “corruptions” of the Catholics, and that his translation of the Bible, was also divinely inspired.
There is also evidence that he did want to remove some of the books (including revelation) from the NT but was prevented by others in the movement.

But - If his translation and the protestant reformation movement was inspired by the Holy Spirit, it seems highly unlikely that he would later change his views on some of the books. It throws the underpinnings of the changes out the window. (IMHO)

Just my 2c.

James
Luther’s views changed constantly on many things. He was well known for his inconstancy. Check out some of his writings and you can see for yourself that he was more spastic than dogmatic.

This is by way of contrast with Calvin, of course, who approached theology as one grinds meat—relentlessly.
 
I am wondering why The Catholic Bible has books in it that Luther decided to remove- or maybe the better question is WHY did Luther remove those books? I have heard the sarcastic remark that Luther had to remove these books to justify his own teaching, but I am sure protestants have a much more complex explanation. A woman at work keeps telling me how many bibles she owns and I want to ask her so bad why she has to have so many but I want to approach the subject in a more Christian way to get her to honestly question why her Bibles are lacking all the books.
The short answer is that he believed them to be uninspired. Past that, I am not qualified to give you a detailed analysis of exactly why Luther rejected the books Catholics refer to as the deuterocanonicals.
 
biblegateway.com has the 1547 Lutheran Bible for anyone who would like to check it out. I’m sure there are other resources regarding Luther’s “translated from Greek to German in 10 weeks” miracle Bible as well.

Luther inserted “faith ALONE” in Romans, but did not remove James altogether, although he did criticize it as a “right strawy epistle” as I recall.
I didin’t realize BibleGateway had the Lutheran Bible, thanks.

I can’t access the information I want right now but there is more to the quote than the “right strawy” portion of it. No doubt Luther did say that, but there is more to it.

I’ll try to post something on this when I get home tonight.
 
<<May I add, King James did condense the Bible - for HIS version…>>

You’re mistaken, Pier.

The King James Bible, as originally published, DID contain the Apocrypha (aka deuterocanonical books). In fact, it contained books that are NOT in the Vulgate canon, namely Prayer of Manesses and 1 & 2 Esdras.

It is still illegal to print a KJV in England WITHOUT these books. All the copies of the KJV in my house are complete; in fact, I won’t have a mutilated copy in my four walls.
 
This just doesn’t sound very appealing.
LOL—yeah, probably could have chosen a better analogy there. I was trying to make the point that internal consistency was much more important to Calvin than Luther, and thus one shouldn’t necessarily expect very definitive or lasting decisions on much from the latter, who clearly lived up to the attitude that “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds” as Churchill put it.
 
<<May I add, King James did condense the Bible - for HIS version…>>

You’re mistaken, Pier.

The King James Bible, as originally published, DID contain the Apocrypha (aka deuterocanonical books). In fact, it contained books that are NOT in the Vulgate canon, namely Prayer of Manesses and 1 & 2 Esdras.

It is still illegal to print a KJV in England WITHOUT these books. All the copies of the KJV in my house are complete; in fact, I won’t have a mutilated copy in my four walls.
Thank you for the correction…
 
a.) The apostles never quoted the books as scripture. For example, they never prefaced a quote or reference from the books in question with “It is written…” or “Thus saith the Lord”.
Neither do they do so for Ecclesiastes, but you probably have that in your Bible. If your response is “well Ecclesiastes isn’t a contested book,” remember that during the time of apostles, neither was the deuterocanon. Said books weren’t thrown out until the Council of Jamnia, which was much after the Catholic Church was established. Look at the Didache, Justin Martyr, Ignatius – all of these quote the deuterocanon. They’ve been accepted since the beginning of Christian history.

There are times when the apostles quote the contested books to show that Jesus fulfilled their prophecies. Why go through the trouble of proving a prophecy from a book that wasn’t inspired?
b.) Even if they are quoted, Paul quotes from pagan sources and we both agree that Paul didn’t think they were inspired.
If he quotes it in a positive context, you can treat the quote, for all intents and purposes, that it itself is inspired. If it’s true enough that an apostle wanted to share it with readers in holy scripture, then it’s true enough to be taken as religious dogma.

There’s a flaw in your argument. Almost all of the evangelists and apostles could read Hebrew. Why quote from the Septuagint, assuming it contained heretical books, if they could just as easily quote the Israelic texts themselves?
 
So Protestants accept Jewish TRADITION?

What is that… irony?
I like the way you think.

I often hear Protestants use the “traditions of men” argument when being critical of the CC.

But Jewish “traditions of men”? No problem.

👍
 
The short answer is that he believed them to be uninspired. Past that, I am not qualified to give you a detailed analysis of exactly why Luther rejected the books Catholics refer to as the deuterocanonicals.
I have a problem with this. I did not think it would be so difficult to find out why Luther removed books and changed words. If it was so clear, at least clear enough to convince people that the Catholic Bible is no good, then one would think that Luther’s intentions were strong and clear- and his motives- if honest- would be clear as well. If you are going to believe Luther was correct, then I would think, with your eternal salvation at risk, that a person could give a clear analysis to prove that Luther was correct.How can someone be so determined that a Bible should not have the deuterocanicals if they do not know the full reason Luther rejected them?
 
I have a problem with this. I did not think it would be so difficult to find out why Luther removed books and changed words. If it was so clear, at least clear enough to convince people that the Catholic Bible is no good, then one would think that Luther’s intentions were strong and clear- and his motives- if honest- would be clear as well. If you are going to believe Luther was correct, then I would think, with your eternal salvation at risk, that a person could give a clear analysis to prove that Luther was correct.How can someone be so determined that a Bible should not have the deuterocanicals if they do not know the full reason Luther rejected them?
I don’t really care if you have a problem with my response, it is my honest, non-ambiguous reply to your request. If it’s not good enough for you, well…too bad.

I said that I would not be qualified to give you an accurate analysis of what was going through Luther’s mind and I’m not.

You did not ask why I or others reject the books you call the deutero’s, you specifically asked about Luther’s reasons in your first post and then specifically asked me to answer your question, which I responded to.

In the post above you now insinuate that Luther’s motives weren’t honest. I know I won’t convince you otherwise so why should I try?

Luther may have rejected the apocrypha/deutero’s for reasons that I may or may not share. I do not believe Luther, JPII, Pope BXVI (I think he is the 16th) or anyone else is infallible so although it may be interesting to know the details of what Luther thought, I don’t find it very important. Quite a bit of ink has been spilled on the subject so being intimately familiar with Luther’s reasons isn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things.
 
Neither do they do so for Ecclesiastes, but you probably have that in your Bible. If your response is “well Ecclesiastes isn’t a contested book,” remember that during the time of apostles, neither was the deuterocanon. Said books weren’t thrown out until the Council of Jamnia, which was much after the Catholic Church was established. Look at the Didache, Justin Martyr, Ignatius – all of these quote the deuterocanon. They’ve been accepted since the beginning of Christian history.
Don’t take my post out of context.

I only presented the problems with the argument the other poster tried. I never said a book had to be quoted in order for it to be canonical.

I don’t believe that Jamnia settled the canon for the Jews. Why do you think Jamnia settled the canon for the Jews?
There are times when the apostles quote the contested books to show that Jesus fulfilled their prophecies. Why go through the trouble of proving a prophecy from a book that wasn’t inspired?
I don’t remember these quotes. Could you post them for me?
If he quotes it in a positive context, you can treat the quote, for all intents and purposes, that it itself is inspired. If it’s true enough that an apostle wanted to share it with readers in holy scripture, then it’s true enough to be taken as religious dogma.
Hmmm…okay…I think.
There’s a flaw in your argument. Almost all of the evangelists and apostles could read Hebrew. Why quote from the Septuagint, assuming it contained heretical books, if they could just as easily quote the Israelic texts themselves?
The term “septuagint” is not synonymous with “deuterocanonical”. Let’s assume that all the OT quotes and references found in the NT are from the Septuagint. I don’t think that helps your case for the deutero’s at all.

The septuagint contained books that neither one of us accept as canonical, books such as 3 and 4 Maccabees as well as others.

Additionally, there wasn’t just one version of the septuagint. It’s not like you could run out and buy the latest NIV study Bible. From what I understand, different manuscripts contained different collections of books.
 
Meaning no manuscript (and the Reformation happened after printing), of the OT, produced by anyone who believed in Christ omitted the deuterocanonicals from the OT section of the Bible, nor from their lectionary (the majority of our MSS come from these).
Can you provide a reference for this?
If you trust the copyists enough to transmit the text, then trust them in the text they transmitted, which included the deuterocanonicals.
You do realize that the issue of the canon wasn’t fully settled for the Catholic church until Trent, right? Up until that time, the OT canon was in dispute and faithful catholics were apparently free to disagree with the two earlier councils. Carthage and Hippo was it…?

Also, just because a book such as 1 Maccabees was included in a book, that does not neceessarily mean that the book was considered canonical. For example, the early KJV apparently contained the deutero’s but I don’t recall any of the reformers being convinced that they were in fact inspired.
No, but a religious holiday needs an inspired commandment.
But the present day Jews who celebrate the feast do not find Maccabees to be inspired, do they?
 
EPISTLE OF STRAW

I don’t know where I found this but it pertains to the “Epistle of Straw” issue.

4: Martin Luther Called The Book Of James “An Epistle Of Straw”

The most frequent charge against Luther’s view on the canon is his opinion on the book of James.[39] Luther wrote this statement in his original Preface To The New Testament in 1522:

“In a word St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it. But more of this in the other prefaces.”[40]

Rarely is Luther accurately quoted on this topic. Luther says James “is really an epistle of straw” compared to “St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle.” Luther wants his readers to see a comparison.

An interesting fact about this quote (hardly ever mentioned by Luther-detractors!) is that it only appears in the original 1522 Preface To The New Testament. John Warwick Montgomery points out: “Few people realize — and liberal Luther interpreters do not particularly advertise the fact — that in all the editions of Luther’s Bible translation after 1522 the—Reformer dropped the paragraphs at the end, of his general Preface to the New Testament which made value judgments among the various biblical books and which included the famous reference to James as an “Epistle of straw.”[41] Montgomery finds that Luther showed a “considerable reduction in negative tone in the revised Prefaces to the biblical books later in the Reformer’s career.”[42] For anyone to continue to cite Luther’s “epistle of straw” comment against him is to do Luther an injustice. He saw fit to retract the comment. Subsequent citations of this quote should bear this in mind.[43]
 
For all of you who think the earlier councils established the canon once and for all, I have a question.

When the Tridentine fathers met at Trent, they voted on what to accept and what to reject from the canon.

If the issue of the canon was already settled some 1,000 years previously, why did they have a vote?

We find at the council some of the Tridentine fathers rejecting the detuero’s. What gives?
 
For all of you who think the earlier councils established the canon once and for all, I have a question.

When the Tridentine fathers met at Trent, they voted on what to accept and what to reject from the canon.

If the issue of the canon was already settled some 1,000 years previously, why did they have a vote?

We find at the council some of the Tridentine fathers rejecting the detuero’s. What gives?
No…the fact is that the Trent only affirmed what had been already accepted centuries before.

Why vote? Because that is what councils do? :rolleyes:

Can you provide any documentation that anyone at Trent rejected the 73 book canon that we have had for 2,000 years?

I see a lot of implied allegations in your post, but no substantiation.

However, this article shows that even the earliest church sources considered the DCs as Canon.

Can you do better in support of your post?
 
As for Luther…read what he said when confronted for tampering with Romans 3:28 to add the word “alone” where there is no justification for it in the Greek.

Read what he said about the book of Esther and how he wanted to remove it too.

He may a “pillar of the reformation” to n-Cs, but to me, he was just another agenda driven rebel with an attitude who led a lot of people astray.🤷
 
No…the fact is that the Trent only affirmed what had been already accepted centuries before.

Why vote? Because that is what councils do? :rolleyes:

Can you provide any documentation that anyone at Trent rejected the 73 book canon that we have had for 2,000 years?

I see a lot of implied allegations in your post, but no substantiation.

However, this article shows that even the earliest church sources considered the DCs as Canon.

Can you do better in support of your post?
Maybe you are aware, or maybe you are not, but quite a few Catholics on this board seem to think the earlier councils were binding for the whole church and that the issue was settled at that time, which it wasn’t.

From the earliest days in the church to Pope Gregory the Great to Cardinal Bellarmine at the reformation we find Catholics who reject the deutero’s either in part or in whole. Certainly “some” did in fact accept the the deutero’s that later became part of the canon of Trent but certainly not all.

Trent had a vote to establish the canon. If Trent only wished to re-affirm or re-establish what was already universally accepted, it would make no sense to have a vote and certainly it would make no sense for some of the Tridentine fathers to reject the books that were already universally accepted.

From Gary Michuta’s website (Catholic apologist for those who don’t know him)
*From these we see that the bishops at Trent were not silent about their silence on this question. They had a discussion about it. At the end of that discussion, they took a vote. This is a matter of record, not of interpretation. On March 29, 1546 the Council Fathers took up the fourth of fourteen questions (Capita Dubitationum) on Scripture and Tradition. At issue was whether those books that were not included in the official list, but were included in the Latin Vulgate (e.g. The Book of Esdras, Fourth Ezra, and Third Maccabees), should be rejected by a Conciliar decree, or be passed over in silence. Only three Fathers voted for an explicit rejection. Forty-two voted that the status of these books should be passed over in silence. *

The context of the above quote is the discussion Gary and James White had on Trent passing over in silence one of the books that was included in the two earlier councils canons. Now, it’s a fact that three fathers rejected these books explicitly and 42 voted to pass over the book in question in silence.

I only bring up the fact that Trent voted on the books to accept or reject them in order to demonstrate that:

The issue of the deutero’s wasn’t closed for the RCC until Trent. The earlier councils were apparently not binding upon the whole church.

If someone wants to argue that the earlier councils settled the matter they need to explain:
a.) Why did Trent need to vote at all on the books to accept or reject if the matter was already settled?

b.) Even if you explain away the vote, how do you explain the rejection of the books by some of the fathers at Trent?

Now, I have no doubt that someone will take what I have said out of context so let me say again, I have only mentioned this to show that the issue of canonocity for the deutero’s wasn’t settled until Trent.

BTW, I quoted the above section from Gary’s website so that no one would worry about me bringing in a biased text.
 
As for Luther…read what he said when confronted for tampering with Romans 3:28 to add the word “alone” where there is no justification for it in the Greek.

Read what he said about the book of Esther and how he wanted to remove it too.

He may a “pillar of the reformation” to n-Cs, but to me, he was just another agenda driven rebel with an attitude who led a lot of people astray.🤷
You know, I have no idea why you brought Luther up.

Luther wasn’t the first to use “alone” when discussing Romans 3:28, in fact I believe Cardinal Bellarmine listed 8 fathers that do so as well and yes I’ll try to provide that reference later.

Secondly, if I typed anything at all similar to ***“He may a “pillar of the reformation” to n-Cs, but to me, he was just another agenda driven rebel with an attitude who led a lot of people astray.🤷” * ** but changed enough of the words so that the above was about a pope, what would you think, or maybe more importantly, how would you react?

It seems you and I had a similar issue before and resolved it, so why post something inflamatory like the above?

Your posts are more than good enough so you definitely don’t have to resort to this.
 
The other poster said something that wasn’t true. I corrected the mistake. Luther didn’t remove James.
You are correct, Luther was ‘prevented’ from following his desire toremove the books…

Luther had wanted to remove the letters to James, Timothy and the book of Revelation… other reformers [Calvin, Zwingli etc] convinced him not to, like the deuterocanonicals, Luther wanted them removed from the Canon and placed in an appendix …
 
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