F
- Status
W
Wolseley
Guest
This is on a par with, “We know that 13-year olds are going to engage in sex anyway, so we may as well be pragmatic and give them birth control so at least the sex they’re having will be safe.”
What’s next? “We know that arsonists are going to start fires anyway, so we may as well give them classes so they’ll know whcih accelerant is the safest to use”?
What’s next? “We know that arsonists are going to start fires anyway, so we may as well give them classes so they’ll know whcih accelerant is the safest to use”?
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francesco920
Guest
Yes, and perhaps since we know that gang members are going to get in gun fights, we should provide them with bullet-proof vests.This is on a par with, “We know that 13-year olds are going to engage in sex anyway, so we may as well be pragmatic and give them birth control so at least the sex they’re having will be safe.”
What’s next? “We know that arsonists are going to start fires anyway, so we may as well give them classes so they’ll know whcih accelerant is the safest to use”?
I agree with you completely. The total lack of common sense and logic among the “enlightened” is both amazing and sad.
I wonder what SS. Mary Magdalen and Maria Goretti must be thinking when they see a bishop saying these things…
Pray for the bishop.
G
Genesis315
Guest
St. Augustine took the same approach as the bishop above. Sometimes evils can be tolerated by the state for a greater good–the state is not required to make every sin illegal. I’d have to know more about the situation above, but I’m willing to guess that with the information and means we have at our disposal today, prostitution is probably intolerable in almost all situations.
That being said, St. Augustine’s reasoning is thus:
“If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts.”
His general argument was that worse things will happen if the brothels are shut down–which seems to be the reasoning in the OP.
Pope Pius XII summarizes this general concept here in an audience to Italian jurists:
"Hence the affirmation: religious and moral error must always be impeded, when it is possible, because toleration of them is in itself immoral, is not valid absolutely and unconditionally.
Prostitution is always a sin, but the history of Christendom shows that it was quite often a sin tolerated by the state (with approval from ecclesiastics, who always condemned it as immoral just the same). Is it tolerable given current circumstances? Probably not, but the bishop’s opinion in the OP is definitely not novel and it is also not contrary to the faith per se.
That being said, St. Augustine’s reasoning is thus:
“If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts.”
His general argument was that worse things will happen if the brothels are shut down–which seems to be the reasoning in the OP.
Pope Pius XII summarizes this general concept here in an audience to Italian jurists:
"Hence the affirmation: religious and moral error must always be impeded, when it is possible, because toleration of them is in itself immoral, is not valid absolutely and unconditionally.
Code:
"Moreover, God has not given even to human authority such an absolute and universal command in matters of faith and morality. Such a command is unknown to the common convictions of mankind, to Christian conscience, to the sources of Revelation and to the practice of the Church...The duty of repressing moral and religious error cannot therefore be an ultimate norm of action. It must be subordinate to higher and more general norms, which in some circumstances permit, and even perhaps seem to indicate as the better policy, toleration of error in order to promote a greater good."
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francesco920
Guest
I can’t say I understand. Whenever does tolerating prostitution help the common good? And what is worse than mortal sin?
Also, in this case, we are not talking about making prostitution illegal, we are talking about legalizing it. I therefore do not think that St. Augustine’s or Pope Pius XII’s reasoning can be applied here.
Perhaps bishops have opposed cracking down or using harsh measures on brothels in the past, but have they ever supported the legalization of prostitution? I think the two are very different things.
I
inthecloud
Guest
In most Catholic countries of Southern Europe and in Latin American excolonies prostitution have been semilegal since Roman times. The rational is the same that St Agustine. But pimping, traffic and relutation as a “job” no.
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Dale_M
Guest
How about… we know illegal aliens are going to drive anyways, so let’s give them drivers’ licenses.
At any rate, licensing brothels may not help as much as the bishop would like. A responder to The Times (of London) news story mentioned that in Nevada (where she lived) prostitution was legal, but "there is still a large underground (illegal) industry because people don’t want to be permanently associated with prostitution. "
women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article2821186.ece
And this issue just looks bad for the Church. A blogger for the Huffington Post headlined her most recent article: “Catholic Bishops Say No to Women Priests, Yes to Hookers”.
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Gregory_Carlin
Guest
The NFWI campaign is linked to Amnesty International.
The project would mean condoms of course, abortion, and the policy would be detrimental to authentic marriage. If prostitution is always a sin then it is contrary to faith.
It is my policy to seek to exclude all pro-prostitution advocates from working in schools. I am not going to be making an exception in Portsmouth or Hampshire. That position is non-negotiable and an important anti-slavery objective.
I have targeted brothels operated by ‘Catholic’ teachers in the past and I see no reason to retreat from the rampart of zero-toleration because of the attributed views of a Bishop.
I have to address the issue with compassion and humility. I have made some howling mistakes of my own in the past. I am certain I will be able to resolve the problem.
Gregory Carlin
Irish Anti-Trafficking Coalition.
Source URL: lifesite.net/ldn/2007/nov/07111504.html
Thursday November 15, 2007
Catholic Anti-Trafficking Campaigner calls for Pro-Brothels Bishop to Step Down
Says “Legal brothels legitimize an industry that completely victimizes women”
By Hilary White
PORTSMOUTH, UK, November 15, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Anti-trafficking organizations have demanded the resignation of Portsmouth Catholic bishop Crispian Hollis after he told media of his support for the legalization of brothels. He made his comments in response to a resolution passed by the Hampshire branch of the Women’s Institute, the UK’s largest women’s organization, calling on the government to legalize brothels.
Hollis, whose diocese covers Hampshire, told media last weekend, “If you are going to take a pragmatic view and say prostitution happens, I think there’s a need to make sure it’s as well-regulated as possible for the health of people involved and for the safety of the ladies themselves.”
The Irish Anti-Trafficking Coalition has called for Bishop Hollis to resign citing the Vatican’s condemnation of the international movement to legalize prostitution. IATC director, Gregory Carlin told LifeSiteNews.com, “Legal brothels legitimize an industry that completely victimizes women.”
Although the argument is routinely made that legalization protects women, anti-trafficking organizations insist that it fails to protect women or slow down the growth of organized crime, trafficking or sexual abuse of children. “No jurisdiction,” Carlin said, “not Australia, New Zealand, Holland, or Germany has been able to migrate street prostitution to the brothel model.”
“If the demand is legitimized or expanded in the UK it will increase the existing problem of sex tourism” in Europe, he said. “There are men who think they have a right to do these things. Legal brothels in Britain will offer a seamless opportunity vis a vis Germany, Holland, Belgium and other European countries.”
In 2005, the Vatican released a document calling prostitution “a form of modern day slavery”. The document, developed at the First International Meeting of Pastoral Care for the Liberation of Women of the Street, added that “sexual exploitation, prostitution and trafficking of human beings are all acts of violence against women,” and “constitute an offence to the dignity of women and are a grave violation of basic human rights.”
Carlin also called on the National Federation of Women’s Institutes to disavow any support for the legalization of prostitution or brothels. Efforts by the Women’s Institutes to legalize brothels, he said, “is not going to help anybody who needs help.”
Eoin Redahan, head of Public Relations with the National Federation of Women’s Institutes (NFWI), responded, however, that the decision to support legalization of brothels by the Hampshire branch “is not an issue that the WI” as a whole “has a position on.”
(snip)
Gregory Carlin said that the British police do not close illegal brothels, and that British men who frequent them are a “major part” of the exploitation of trafficked children in brothels. He alleged that they are frequently offered immunity from criminal prosecution in exchange for information about immigrants.
Read related LifeSiteNews.com coverage:
Portsmouth Catholic Bishop Supports Legalization of Sex-Trafficking Bordellos
lifesite.net/ldn/2007/nov/07111203.html ;
To contact the Vatican
CONGREGATION FOR THE CLERGY
Piazza Pio XII 3
00193
Rome, Italy
Phone: 011.39.6.69.88.41.51
Fax: 011.39.6.69.88.48.45
To Contact the National Federation of Women’s Institutes,
104 New Kings Road,
London
SW6 4LY
Phone: 020 7371 9300
Fax: 020 7736 3652
Email: hq@nfwi.org.uk
(c) Copyright: LifeSiteNews.com. Permission to republish is granted (with limitation*) but acknowledgement of source is REQUIRED (use LifeSiteNews.com).
The project would mean condoms of course, abortion, and the policy would be detrimental to authentic marriage. If prostitution is always a sin then it is contrary to faith.
It is my policy to seek to exclude all pro-prostitution advocates from working in schools. I am not going to be making an exception in Portsmouth or Hampshire. That position is non-negotiable and an important anti-slavery objective.
I have targeted brothels operated by ‘Catholic’ teachers in the past and I see no reason to retreat from the rampart of zero-toleration because of the attributed views of a Bishop.
I have to address the issue with compassion and humility. I have made some howling mistakes of my own in the past. I am certain I will be able to resolve the problem.
Gregory Carlin
Irish Anti-Trafficking Coalition.
Source URL: lifesite.net/ldn/2007/nov/07111504.html
Thursday November 15, 2007
Catholic Anti-Trafficking Campaigner calls for Pro-Brothels Bishop to Step Down
Says “Legal brothels legitimize an industry that completely victimizes women”
By Hilary White
PORTSMOUTH, UK, November 15, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Anti-trafficking organizations have demanded the resignation of Portsmouth Catholic bishop Crispian Hollis after he told media of his support for the legalization of brothels. He made his comments in response to a resolution passed by the Hampshire branch of the Women’s Institute, the UK’s largest women’s organization, calling on the government to legalize brothels.
Hollis, whose diocese covers Hampshire, told media last weekend, “If you are going to take a pragmatic view and say prostitution happens, I think there’s a need to make sure it’s as well-regulated as possible for the health of people involved and for the safety of the ladies themselves.”
The Irish Anti-Trafficking Coalition has called for Bishop Hollis to resign citing the Vatican’s condemnation of the international movement to legalize prostitution. IATC director, Gregory Carlin told LifeSiteNews.com, “Legal brothels legitimize an industry that completely victimizes women.”
Although the argument is routinely made that legalization protects women, anti-trafficking organizations insist that it fails to protect women or slow down the growth of organized crime, trafficking or sexual abuse of children. “No jurisdiction,” Carlin said, “not Australia, New Zealand, Holland, or Germany has been able to migrate street prostitution to the brothel model.”
“If the demand is legitimized or expanded in the UK it will increase the existing problem of sex tourism” in Europe, he said. “There are men who think they have a right to do these things. Legal brothels in Britain will offer a seamless opportunity vis a vis Germany, Holland, Belgium and other European countries.”
In 2005, the Vatican released a document calling prostitution “a form of modern day slavery”. The document, developed at the First International Meeting of Pastoral Care for the Liberation of Women of the Street, added that “sexual exploitation, prostitution and trafficking of human beings are all acts of violence against women,” and “constitute an offence to the dignity of women and are a grave violation of basic human rights.”
Carlin also called on the National Federation of Women’s Institutes to disavow any support for the legalization of prostitution or brothels. Efforts by the Women’s Institutes to legalize brothels, he said, “is not going to help anybody who needs help.”
Eoin Redahan, head of Public Relations with the National Federation of Women’s Institutes (NFWI), responded, however, that the decision to support legalization of brothels by the Hampshire branch “is not an issue that the WI” as a whole “has a position on.”
(snip)
Gregory Carlin said that the British police do not close illegal brothels, and that British men who frequent them are a “major part” of the exploitation of trafficked children in brothels. He alleged that they are frequently offered immunity from criminal prosecution in exchange for information about immigrants.
Read related LifeSiteNews.com coverage:
Portsmouth Catholic Bishop Supports Legalization of Sex-Trafficking Bordellos
lifesite.net/ldn/2007/nov/07111203.html ;
To contact the Vatican
CONGREGATION FOR THE CLERGY
Piazza Pio XII 3
00193
Rome, Italy
Phone: 011.39.6.69.88.41.51
Fax: 011.39.6.69.88.48.45
To Contact the National Federation of Women’s Institutes,
104 New Kings Road,
London
SW6 4LY
Phone: 020 7371 9300
Fax: 020 7736 3652
Email: hq@nfwi.org.uk
(c) Copyright: LifeSiteNews.com. Permission to republish is granted (with limitation*) but acknowledgement of source is REQUIRED (use LifeSiteNews.com).
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Gregory_Carlin
Guest
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NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
By legalizing the brothels, that leads to regulation, which means things are brought out of the dark alleys into the daytime and then some measures to counteract and minimize can be tried. It is far from any type of endorsement.
Prostitution is not going away, it has always been with us and will always be with us.
Prostitution is not going away, it has always been with us and will always be with us.
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francesco920
Guest
And we should just accept that? Liberals certainly don’t say that regarding poverty, that it “is not going away, it has always been with us and will always be with us.” Just as we should be fighting poverty, we should be fighting prostitution.
We ought to be helping women, not legitimizing/legalizing their exploitation.
And, as far as I know, the legalization of prostitution in European countries hasn’t improved the situation of the women there.
J
Joe_Stong
Guest
There is a certain logic involved when previously illegal activites become legal and regulated: first they open shop on Main street. Then they advertise. Then they gain access to schools - after all, can’t keep the poor dears in the dark about “viable lifestyle options”. Naturally since teachers are unprepared to discuss the nuances, college level courses need to be prepared (as they’re already given for credit to learn about pornography and various other forms of hedonism - credit being given for actual participation of course).
Once the universities buy into it, naturally it’ll be OK for the students to experience the joy of doing something they love and getting paid for it. Since it’s legal and OK, what’s to stop people from bartering tuition for sex? That’s one way to pay for the rising costs of education…
And so and and so forth until it’s in our faces and unavoidable - this is how both evil and good operate: each side seeks totality. This is how Sodom eventually got to the point where the townsfolk were demanding Lot to give them the ‘visitors’ to abuse - they demanded it.
Augustine’s era saw legalized prostitution as an already ancient custom. He wasn’t living in an era where it was illegal, but in a place where it was a basic part of the economy. Whole nuther ball game here. We either resist it or we capitulate to an entirely anti-Christian concept of law and life.
Once the universities buy into it, naturally it’ll be OK for the students to experience the joy of doing something they love and getting paid for it. Since it’s legal and OK, what’s to stop people from bartering tuition for sex? That’s one way to pay for the rising costs of education…
And so and and so forth until it’s in our faces and unavoidable - this is how both evil and good operate: each side seeks totality. This is how Sodom eventually got to the point where the townsfolk were demanding Lot to give them the ‘visitors’ to abuse - they demanded it.
Augustine’s era saw legalized prostitution as an already ancient custom. He wasn’t living in an era where it was illegal, but in a place where it was a basic part of the economy. Whole nuther ball game here. We either resist it or we capitulate to an entirely anti-Christian concept of law and life.
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francesco920
Guest
Very well said.
Your comments reminded me of this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/i/t.gifBelgian disabled get access to prostitutes
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Gregory_Carlin
Guest
With all due respect that does not mean anything. Prostitution is a culpable harm-causing offense. No model of street prostitution has ever been successfully migrated to an off-street environment.
There are your answers, the proposition for case (a) & for case (b) is in each case risible.
(a) does not become less harmful and (b) it will not as practical experience tells us, make any, let alone substantial progress towards the out of sight and out of mind objectives the bishop’s campaigning colleagues were referring to.
Regulation did not keep sex offenders out of British schools, and I greatly doubt the capacity or willingness of the authorities to take greater care over prostituted women involved in this than it does the nation’s schoolchildren.
Gregory Carlin
Irish Anti-Trafficking Coalition
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NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
That is what this legalization does, regulations for heath checks, which brings outreach to help them out of their situation. All I have heard about are a few isolated cases. It is not widespread enough to have a significant effect. Even so it will still be done as it has been done since the start of humankind. To where this is focused at, there will be an improvement for some.
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Gregory_Carlin
Guest
In Belgium the police have the usual concessions & favors. It is one of the ‘advantages’ of being a police officer in Belgium.Very well said.
Your comments reminded me of this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/i/t.gifBelgian disabled get access to prostitutes
The Belgian police authorities were also opposed to the FBI & other agencies in relation to pedophiles. That damages FBI morale. For example during Operation Hamlet the justice dept.
in the United States were in the position of misleading the American people to the extent, they were unable to reveal that a NATO ally was protecting a major pedophile network.
Gregory Carlin
Director
Irish Anti-Trafficking Coalition
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Gregory_Carlin
Guest
Prostituted women’s groups unanimously oppose the prospect of any health checks. They are entitled to do that under the ECHR & CEDAW. There are plenty of free condoms available to all prostitution sectors in the United Kingdom.
Medical intervention has the assumption, while men (or the demand side) will be offended by the intrusion, the women or (the supply side) are already so degraded that further humiliations are of no consequence. It usually comes down to free condoms.
The NFWI campaign is in practical terms for the benefit of their husbands & of course other men, to have the legal entitlement to have sex with eastern bloc teenagers in more comfortable surroundings without fear or hindrance.
The Women’s Institute seek anonymous credit card transaction processing, and to eliminate the adverse consequences connected to public or journalistic discovery.
Legalized prostitution & brothel keeping in Portsmouth were outlawed in the 19th century by William Gladstone because feminists (or ladies as they were then) and Christians, were implacably opposed to the Contagious Diseases Act.
Gregory Carlin
Director
Irish Anti-Trafficking Coalition
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Harmony1988
Guest
As funny as the examples sound, in reference to the situation at hand, it’s evident of the nonsensical reasoning that has gone into the bishop’s statements.This is on a par with, “We know that 13-year olds are going to engage in sex anyway, so we may as well be pragmatic and give them birth control so at least the sex they’re having will be safe.”
What’s next? “We know that arsonists are going to start fires anyway, so we may as well give them classes so they’ll know whcih accelerant is the safest to use”?
He should be reviewed by the Vatican.
S
Steeltemplar
Guest
Yet by strict law enforcement and harsh punishments for pimps and customers there will be improvement for many, many more. The way to prevent grave evils in society is not by facilitating them.
Legalizing prostitution legitimizes it in the eyes of the public. It leads to more prostitution, not less of it. The ideal should be that there should be as little as possible. That ideal cannot be reached if the primary means of combating this evil has been removed.
Women who work in the sex industry are being gravely harmed and are very much the victims of abuse. Prostitution itself is an abuse of every woman involved and it is further an abuse of the families of customers. And in the cases where a prostitute has children, it is an abuse of those children. To legalize these abuses is unacceptable.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
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Gregory_Carlin
Guest
Much of the damage is already done. I will possibly have to live with the statements being thrown in my face for years.
I talked to Eoin Redahan, Head of Public Relations of NFWI and that went badly as might be expected. The Women’s Institute are headline hunting. If it were not this it would be another soft-pornography calender.
I spoke to Mary Griffin, at the newspaper at length, I impressed upon her the issue as it existed would not be allowed to stand.
The Amsterdam model which the NFWI are being asked to endorse and lobby for has been discredited. The NFWI are disinterested in the work of bona fide anti-slavery organizations.
Bishop Crispian Hollis does not appear to have any background research to explain the extraordinary endorsement.
Gregory Carlin
Director
Irish Anti-Trafficking Coalition
- Status