Catholic bishop denies Holocaust

[Layman]

Well, holocaust denial often goes hand-in-hand with antisemitism. So it would be of grave concern if a Catholic bishop were a bigot.
Secondly, the Holocaust is one of the most documented atrocities in history. To deny it’s existence would lead many to question the denier’s sanity.
Third, there’s the issue of international relations between the Vatican and Israel. The Vatican does not want to appear to give cover/support for the antisemitic bigots who hate Israel and want to destroy it.

• “Often goes hand in hand …” But perhaps, in this case, does not.
• He didn’t deny the massacre, just questioned the numbers.
• I don’t think the Bishop is an anti-semitic bigot. And I don’t think the Vatican need cater particularly to a small, unstable, middle-eastern country which is most unlikely to convert to Catholicism in the near future.

I don’t think the Vatican should have its agenda re. the regularisation of the SSPX dictated by parties external to the Church.

What also really ticks me off is that there are now Subjects You May Not Talk About for fear of upsetting the Secular Liberal Religion Of Tolerance (For People And Ideas We Like).

It’s so much easier to control people if they censor themselves, first.

 

[Jehoshua]

Just to correct the error some here have fallen into.

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This guy is not a catholic bishop. He is a bishop of the schismatic SSPX.

The excommunication the bishops of that group recieved were lifted as a good faith gesture for future reconcilliation. It does not mean he has the status of bishop in the Catholic Church. He is a normal lay person who has the status of bishop in the schismatic SSPX.

 

[Layman]

Because it was immoral of him to disrespect the 6 million Jewish victims of the holocaust like that. It was cruel and wrong of him to insult the family members of those who died.

That’s just it. Where did that figure come from? And I don’t think he insulted anyone, by name.

For me, the lesson of WWII is how a supposedly civilised, authoritarian, industrial, cultured, Western, European society can quickly descend into frightful totalitarianism in a few years and then set about executing anyone ‘other’.

Now, funnily enough, once again, we have a situation of where there are Things You May Not Say or you will be arrested. Isn’t the German government trying to extradite Bsihop Williamson, an Englishman, for things he said on Swedish TV?

The mind boggles. I’m just praying the whole leprous edifice of Political Correctness is flushed down the toilet of history soon.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

• “Often goes hand in hand …” But perhaps, in this case, does not.

That’s debatable.

He didn’t deny the massacre, just questioned the numbers.

6 million vs. 300,000 is just questioning numbers? Yeah, try telling an Irish Catholic nationallist that only a few thousand die in the potato famine but that you’re not denying the reality of the patato famine and see how far you get.
There comes a point where you have to wonder what the motivation is for someone trying to reduce the number of people killed.

And I don’t think the Vatican need cater particularly to a small, unstable, middle-eastern country which is most unlikely to convert to Catholicism in the near future.

Sorry but the Vatican disagrees with you. The Vatican has ties and dipolmatic relations to Muslim countries as well as Protestant countries. The Vatican always attempts to remain a “player” on the world stage and as such cannot ignore nonCatholic countries. And of course not giving any semblence of support to racist hatred of Jews and Israel is a good thing.

I don’t think the Vatican should have its agenda re. the regularisation of the SSPX dictated by parties external to the Church.

So now Jews not only control the media and banks, they also control the Holy Father?

 

[Layman]

So now Jews not only control the media and banks, they also control the Holy Father?

Now, did I say that? You have made pre-judgements about my beliefs, there, I think. The impression I’m getting is that if the Vatican does something Israel/Jews don’t like, they might stop ‘dialoguing’ with us. I wonder what would happen if the Pope said point-blank: “Convert, or risk damnation!”. Which would be a true assertion and in line with our faith, as I understand it.

It certainly is debatable that Bp. Will. is an anti-semite. That’s my point. But he has already been tried and found guilty by the media.

It’s been interesting seeing which persons and organisations are most agitated by the potential regularisation of the SSPX. The barque of Peter, however, sails serenely on.

PS: I am an Irish Catholic nationalist. We’re not still rending our garments about the Potato Famine. As I child in school, we learned that it was largely caused by small plots of land being further sub-divided amongst children and dependence on a single type of potato. Didn’t help that we were serfs, but …We’re getting on with life. As a child, I recall dislike, suspicion, pity, amusement and fascination being the chief emotions directed against our ancient enemy. They still see Ireland as part of the UK, we see the UK as a place really quite distinct from Ireland. It’s surprising how little they know about the Republic.

 

[manualman]

This guy is not a catholic bishop. He is a bishop of the schismatic SSPX.

The excommunication the bishops of that group recieved were lifted as a good faith gesture for future reconcilliation. It does not mean he has the status of bishop in the Catholic Church. He is a normal lay person who has the status of bishop in the schismatic SSPX.

No, he’s NOT a normal lay person. He was validly, but illicitly ordained to the episcopacy. He’s a genuine bishop with real apostolic sucession. He just GOT that status by disobedient means (not via papal appointment). This is VERY different than a protestant pastor who decides that his church is big and important and thus declares himself a ‘bishop.’ (We’ve got a lot of those in Chicagoland…)

 

[SamH]

Just to correct the error some here have fallen into.

---

This guy is not a catholic bishop. He is a bishop of the schismatic SSPX.

The excommunication the bishops of that group recieved were lifted as a good faith gesture for future reconcilliation. It does not mean he has the status of bishop in the Catholic Church. He is a normal lay person who has the status of bishop in the schismatic SSPX.

Agreed. The man is no more a “Catholic Bishop” than I am.

I have to laugh when I see the reports on people like Mel Gibson’s father as being a member of an “extreme Catholic” church. Does the media refer to Lutherans and Anglicans are “lax Catholics”?

 

[Sonny1954]

To deny the Holocaust (or to relegate it to a relatively minor episode of WW II) **IS **anti-Semitism. It is also to make liars and conspirators of the thousands of American, British and Soviet soldiers who liberated and witnessed those hellish sespools. If Satan has ever been allowed free reign among humanity, it was the Holocaust.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Now, did I say that? You have made pre-judgements about my beliefs, there, I think.

I wasn’t accusing you of anything. I was pointing out the absurdity that anyone could really dictate anything to the Holy Father. All others can do is voice their concern, what the Vatican does with that is entirely up to the Vatican.

The impression I’m getting is that if the Vatican does something Israel/Jews don’t like, they might stop ‘dialoguing’ with us. I wonder what would happen if the Pope said point-blank: “Convert, or risk damnation!”. Which would be a true assertion and in line with our faith, as I understand it.

Not really.

It certainly is debatable that Bp. Will. is an anti-semite. That’s my point. But he has already been tried and found guilty by the media.

Well that tends to happen to people who trivialize one of the greatest horrors of the 20th century.

 

[JaMc]

Agreed. The man is no more a “Catholic Bishop” than I am.

I have to laugh when I see the reports on people like Mel Gibson’s father as being a member of an “extreme Catholic” church. Does the media refer to Lutherans and Anglicans are “lax Catholics”?

Actually, there is no question that the SSPX Bishops are, in fact, validly ordained Bishops. However, their ordination was illicit. As such, they are suspended, i.e., they have no Sees, cannot licitly (but can validly) ordain other priests or consecrate other Bishops, will not be elevated to Cardinals, will not serve in the Holy See administration, etc.

So, they are every bit as much Bishops as the Pope himself. They are just suspended from performing their functions as such, until the whole SSPX situation gets straightened out.

 

[Abenadar]

Just to correct the error some here have fallen into.

---

This guy is not a catholic bishop. He is a bishop of the schismatic SSPX.

The excommunication the bishops of that group recieved were lifted as a good faith gesture for future reconcilliation. It does not mean he has the status of bishop in the Catholic Church. He is a normal lay person who has the status of bishop in the schismatic SSPX.

“Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”

Nice try, Jehoshua. Here are your errors:

The guy is not a Catholic bishop - False.
The SSPX is schismatic. - False
He is a normal lay person. - False

For everybody else: Just watch the youtube video. His research into the subject isn’t recent, and moreover was based on certain sources that have been discredited…However, just watch the way he speaks, listen to how he says what he says. He’s no anti-semite…He’s just wrong.

An anti-semite would say “there were only 300,000 Jews killed, but I WISH it were 6 million”, which is clearly not what he said or implied. Just watch it already!

It is not anti-semitic to hold an incorrect opinion…And to assume that his motives in this regard are sinister is to judge his inner disposition, something you are not qualified to judge. Moreover, as Catholics, we are always to assume in charity the best possible thing unless we know otherwise. I’m going to do the Catholic thing and assume that it is things he read, rather than hatred of Jews, which made him come to his conclusion…A conclusion, I might add, that he said he’d be more than willing to revise.

Who here is going to say that his motives are based on hatred? Who wants to cast the first stone?

 

[Abenadar]

That’s just it. Where did that figure come from? And I don’t think he insulted anyone, by name.

For me, the lesson of WWII is how a supposedly civilised, authoritarian, industrial, cultured, Western, European society can quickly descend into frightful totalitarianism in a few years and then set about executing anyone ‘other’.

Now, funnily enough, once again, we have a situation of where there are Things You May Not Say or you will be arrested. Isn’t the German government trying to extradite Bsihop Williamson, an Englishman, for things he said on Swedish TV?

The mind boggles. I’m just praying the whole leprous edifice of Political Correctness is flushed down the toilet of history soon.

I totally agree with your posts in this thread, Layman. One thing you may or may not know is that, while the interview was for a non-German TV station, the interview was given in Germany…That’s why the Germans want to fine him or extradite him or whatever.

I love how in Nazi Germany you couldn’t do or say or believe certain things…And as a reaction to that period of time, today you can’t do, say, or believe certain things in Germany…lol. I guess not much has changed…

 

[Abenadar]

If Satan has ever been allowed free reign among humanity, it was the Holocaust.

Yeah, because nothing in modern history says “Satan” like 12 million holocaust victims (jew and non-jew alike) over the course of 6+ years.

Let’s just not mention what atheism and communism did in the last century, and let’s certainly not mention an even worse holocaust that continues today: abortion.

BTW, I’m in no way saying that the holocaust wasn’t bad…I would, however, like to point out that the holocaust is over. Now let’s turn our attention toward situations that are continuing even today. Right now we need to get Russia consecrated so that she will stop spreading her error, as well as fight to end abortion, which is a genocide to make the holocaust look small by comparison.

 

[Sonny1954]

Yeah, because nothing in modern history says “Satan” like 12 million holocaust victims (jew and non-jew alike) over the course of 6+ years.

Let’s just not mention what atheism and communism did in the last century, and let’s certainly not mention an even worse holocaust that continues today: abortion.

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I have not spoken to a member of the Jewish faith or culture did not take insult at the comparision of the Holocaust to a woman’s terminating her pregnancy. It’s not an apt comparison. Now, if there were a law which said every Jewish woman or Black woman or Catholic woman MUST terminate her pregnancy, then there would be some parallel to the Holocaust.

 

[Joe_5859]

Abenadar;5846067:

Yeah, because nothing in modern history says “Satan” like 12 million holocaust victims (jew and non-jew alike) over the course of 6+ years.

Let’s just not mention what atheism and communism did in the last century, and let’s certainly not mention an even worse holocaust that continues today: abortion.

---

I have not spoken to a member of the Jewish faith or culture did not take insult at the comparision of the Holocaust to a woman’s terminating her pregnancy. It’s not an apt comparison. Now, if there were a law which said every Jewish woman or Black woman or Catholic woman MUST terminate her pregnancy, then there would be some parallel to the Holocaust.

Yes, but there is no choice for the people being killed in both situations. The babies are not choosing to be killed. Others are making that choice for them. That’s the same thing that happened to the Jewish people, right? Or am I missing something?

 

[Joe_5859]

For everybody else: Just watch the youtube video. His research into the subject isn’t recent, and moreover was based on certain sources that have been discredited…However, just watch the way he speaks, listen to how he says what he says. He’s no anti-semite…He’s just wrong.

An anti-semite would say “there were only 300,000 Jews killed, but I WISH it were 6 million”, which is clearly not what he said or implied. Just watch it already!

It is not anti-semitic to hold an incorrect opinion…And to assume that his motives in this regard are sinister is to judge his inner disposition, something you are not qualified to judge. Moreover, as Catholics, we are always to assume in charity the best possible thing unless we know otherwise. I’m going to do the Catholic thing and assume that it is things he read, rather than hatred of Jews, which made him come to his conclusion…A conclusion, I might add, that he said he’d be more than willing to revise.

Who here is going to say that his motives are based on hatred? Who wants to cast the first stone?

I had heard these things, too, back when the excommunications were lifted. Do you know if Williamson has had the opportunity for further research on the matter in the past 9 months?

 

[Layman]

I saw another of his videos on YouTube. I think the problem for him and many other people today is that there is a mountain of books published on ‘conspiracy theory’ themes which seem authoritiative but which are, in truth, potboilers written by non-academics which pick and choose whatever supports their case.

A famous example would be ‘The Holy Blood And The Holy Grail’, which was eventually revealed to be based on a fraud. They key thing is that the writers found what turned out to be fake documents which supported their case and built a wobbly scaffold of pseudo-history on top of it. They believed what they were writing and in turn duped their readership. They were not historians and so could not sift truth from lie.

Ancient Egypt, Freemasonry, The Templars and anything to do with the Nazis is literary gold. It doesn’t even have to be true!

People who have no background in a subject are easy to fool. We are conditioned to believe that whoever is addressing us is sincere. And the more fantastic the lie the more likely it will spread, like fire in a tinder-dry forest.

 

[Abenadar]

Abenadar;5846067:

Yeah, because nothing in modern history says “Satan” like 12 million holocaust victims (jew and non-jew alike) over the course of 6+ years.

Let’s just not mention what atheism and communism did in the last century, and let’s certainly not mention an even worse holocaust that continues today: abortion.

---

I have not spoken to a member of the Jewish faith or culture did not take insult at the comparision of the Holocaust to a woman’s terminating her pregnancy. It’s not an apt comparison. Now, if there were a law which said every Jewish woman or Black woman or Catholic woman MUST terminate her pregnancy, then there would be some parallel to the Holocaust.

What I see is selfish, proud, and evil people willfully choosing to murder others. Nazis murdering people in camps, mothers murdering babies in utero. Also, as a Catholic, I can’t understand the white-washing of abortion by using mild euphemisms such as “terminate her pregnancy”. Maybe if we all started referring to it as what it is, which is murder, perhaps we’d help instruct the ignorant (a work of mercy) by not using their terms to describe a horrendous crime.

Last I checked, murder was still murder, whether it’s legal or not.

And as a side note…you won’t be able to find a Jew who doesn’t take offense at having other things termed “holocaust” (such as abortion, or any number of other genocides etc) because that would take away their distinction as having a corner on the market of suffering. That’s why, to this day, we are still constantly bombarded from all sides (particularly the MSM) with guilt trips and reminders of the holocaust…When’s the last time you read about genocides that are currently (as in, TODAY) going on in the world? Newsflash, the Jews aren’t the only people who have suffered…Moreover, it wasn’t just Jews who died the THE holocaust…As I remember, there were 6 million non-Jews who also perished, 3 million of whom were Catholics.

And speaking of “apt comparisons”…Holocaust means “burnt offering to God”…Perhaps it’d be a little more apt to describe Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden as holocausts, even than THE holocaust.

 

[Abenadar]

I saw another of his videos on YouTube. I think the problem for him and many other people today is that there is a mountain of books published on ‘conspiracy theory’ themes which seem authoritiative but which are, in truth, potboilers written by non-academics which pick and choose whatever supports their case.

Very true! The sad thing, though, is that even real bonafide academics these days can’t help but slant their views and find evidence for conclusions that they’ve already drawn etc. One can’t tell who’s speaking authoritatively anymore, on any subject, including the holocaust. For instance, Auschwitz used to have a plaque out front on its gates saying “where 4 million people perished”, but was later changed to “1.5 million people, mostly Jews”…Ok, so where did the 4 million figure come from??? There’s kind of a big difference between 1.5 and 4 million, wouldn’t you say?

Ancient Egypt, Freemasonry, The Templars and anything to do with the Nazis is literary gold. It doesn’t even have to be true!

Which is why these subjects, especially the Nazis and the holocaust, need to continue to be studied so that information is neither lost nor exaggerated to kingdom come. 4 million…Say what???

 

[Abenadar]

Ok, I read it…

Are you still going to assume, without proof, that he’s an anti-semite? Lots of folks hold lots of views (including many of the ones listed) and aren’t bigots in any way. Bishop Williamson, while intrigued with these types of theories, isn’t a hater of Jews or anybody else, although he may pity them and pray for their conversion from their false religion to the true faith.

Politically, behind the Arab terrorists are most likely the would-be architects of the New World Order, who have long been using the United States as an instrument to achieve their control of the world. Long ago they planned three World Wars to achieve their aim. It is they who provoked the sinking of the “Lusitania” and the attack on Pearl Harbor to bring the USA into the first two. Now they seem to be using the Arabs also. Humanly, they are clever. They are even diabolically clever. But little do they realize that they are in turn mere instruments of God who uses them for the salvation of souls.

Can we prove this is false? Can we prove it’s true? Not yet.

Is there evidence for this? Is there evidence against?
Yes.

For the last fourteen hundred years Mohammedans, whether Saracens or Arabs or Moors or Turks, have served God as a scourge to punish faithless Christians, or slack Christendom. When Catholics are fervent, God can grant them miraculous victories over the Mohammedans, as at the sea-battle of Lepanto in 1571. When Catholics are slack, God can allow the very survival of their nations to be threatened, as now, by birth-rates in Europe, by terrorism in the USA. When Spanish Catholics were slack in the 700’s, God allowed the Jews to betray Spain to the Arabs. When Spanish Catholics were truly Catholic, God granted them by 1492 to reconquer Spain from the Arabs, and then granted them to create a Catholic empire in the Americas. Either way, God writes straight with crooked lines for the salvation of souls.

Ok…great, there’s a lot of truth there.

The Jews are a similar case. As early as 200 the Church author Tertullian remarked that as Catholic faith goes up, so Jewish power goes down, while as Catholic faith goes down, so Jewish power goes up. In the Catholic Middle Ages the Jews we’re relatively impotent to harm Christendom, but as Catholics have grown over the centuries since then weaker and weaker in the faith, especially since Vatican II, so the Jews have come closer and closer to fulfilling their substitute-Messianic drive towards world dominion.

Ok, he quotes Tertullian, and then provides anecdotal evidence and his OPINION.

I have a problem agreeing with everything I read, but I also have a problem dismissing everything I see because it may happen to portray Jews in a bad light. Guess what? No (living) Jew is perfect and a Jew can scheme and cause as much trouble as the next guy. Get over it. Just because it portrays somebody in a bad light doesn’t mean it’s false, or the person saying it is an anti-semite.

Was St. Stephen, in the Acts of the Apostles an “anti-semite” for all his words? Today he’d be (figuratively) stoned to death (again) as a mad, ranting and raving, anti-semitic lunatic by the MSM and every other person who is afraid of being labeled “anti-semite”. Big deal…what’s changed?