Catholic bishop: I changed from Democrat to Republican after ‘awful’ 2012 Democratic Convention

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My point was that Voting a party line is ludicrous. Anyone voting for any candidate as a party member without regards to individual politics is a fool…remember What Ike got when he appointed earl warren (even though not an elected office), and the rationale for the title RINO (republican in name only)?
I used to think the same thing. But in recent years, we have seen near-total unanimity among Democrats on just about everything. NARAL could only find something like 5 or 7 prolife Democrats in all of Congress. NRLC could find only about the same number of pro-abortion Repubs. Both counts were based on voting records.

There were more dissident Bolsheviks than that even after Stalin’s purges. There was even a greater percentage of betrayers among the Apostles than that.

Having said that, though I’m not a Repub and never have been, I actually do find out what the candidates stand for. As it turns out, I have voted for nothing but Repubs for years because the ones on my ballot are always prolife while the Dems are always abortion supporters.

And that’s in a very prolife part of the country. If the Dems can’t bring themselves to even lie about it in a place like this, there’s really very little hope for them.
 
The problem is the Rebuplican party has talked about jettisoning the conservative social base. I have a friend who is a war hawk Republican (strong national defense and fiscal policy). He said that moral conservatives are weighing down the party and as long as they (us) keep on banging the antiabortion and anti gay “marriage” drum that Rebuplicans would never win another major national election. As he says, if its a baby or national defense at least i can sell natiknal defense. If the Rebulican party no longer has prolife and pro traditional marriage planks in the platform then a third party might be the only option.
I don’t think the Repubs will do that. I don’t think they can afford to do it, because there would be virtually nothing left of the party if they did.

But I don’t believe your friend’s proposition either. if that were true, Christie wouldn’t be the governor of NJ.
 
It is also acceptable for Catholics to vote for third-party candidates who are actually pro-life.
Why when the Republican candidate, the one who had a chance, was acceptable? You are arguing over technicalities. As for me, I wouldn’t want to have to explain to God why I threw my vote away and allowed the ultimate hardliner Pro-Abortion candidate (who also is crusading for so-called “same-sex marriage” and for government attempts to force people to accept homosexual behavior as normal) to get elected twice. Voting for a 3rd party candidate (again, no such thing as a perfect 3rd party candidate) that had zero chance of winning was the same as doing nothing to stop the evil.
 
Is it just me, or does Bp Tobin seem just a bit late to the fair with this announcement? What does it take to convince some of these churchmen that the Party of Death really is the Party of Death?
 
But why when the candidate that had a strong chance of defe was acceptable? Voting for a 3rd party candidate that had zero chance of winning was the same as doing nothing to stop the evil.
Isn’t that practically the definition of a 3rd party candidate? Why keep bringing up the point if we all know they have less chance of winning than the 2 major parties? But his odds do improve if someone votes for him/her, no? I wouldn’t consider that doing nothing to stop the evil. As Cicero wrote Primum, minima de malis (Choose the LEAST of evils.)
 
Isn’t that practically the definition of a 3rd party candidate? Why keep bringing up the point if we all know they have less chance of winning than the 2 major parties? But his odds do improve if someone votes for him/her, no? I wouldn’t consider that doing nothing to stop the evil. As Cicero wrote Primum, minima de malis (Choose the LEAST of evils.)
This is exactly the attitude Democrats like to see conservatives take. It serves their purposes admirably. But for this, Obama probably wouldn’t be president today; homosexuality would not be promoted by the government, Planned Parenthood wouldn’t be receiving obamacare money and the HHS Mandate would be withdrawn.

In choosing the LEAST in this manner, one is actually supporting the GREATEST of evils.
 
That’s a baseless broad brush statement. You don’t even give a specific example of what you are talking about. The bottom line is there is nothing in the RNC’s platform that is incompatible with being a Catholic, and most of the Republican candidates are Pro-Life. The Republican party isn’t perfect, but they are good enough according to Catholic principles on voting which Pope John Paul II lays out in his encyclical Evangelium Vitae (which I wish all Catholics would read).
No one asked for specifics, but I’ll give some. How about the last two presidential candidates: McCain and Romney. And then there is the last Republican President. W. Bush. Then there’s Bob Dole and George Bush 41. I will admit that all of these candidates were better than the Democratic alternative.

My point is that “better” is not good enough. I can’t just say ‘I will vote for the guy that is not the Democrat because well…he’s not the Democrat.’ and somehow think my conscious will be clear because I can say ‘Well, at least I didn’t chose the guy that’s in favor of murdering unborn babies’. The problem is that if we elect a candidate that can’t actually change anything, then what’s the point.
 
Isn’t that practically the definition of a 3rd party candidate? Why keep bringing up the point if we all know they have less chance of winning than the 2 major parties? **But his odds do improve if someone votes for him/her, no? **I wouldn’t consider that doing nothing to stop the evil. As Cicero wrote Primum, minima de malis (Choose the LEAST of evils.)
Bush Sr. lost and Clinton won because of Ross Perot. Then Kerry lost and Bush won because of Ralph Nader. McCain and then Romney lost because of a random bunch of 3rd party candidates. That’s why the 3rd party candidate has come to be known as the “spoiler” candidate. And this is used by each of the two major parties as a political ploy to divide the other major party for the win. The Democrats figured this out and were smart enough to not cast their vote for 3rd party candidate Rosanne Barr. Obama won twice partly because Democrats were united while conservatives were divided. Democrats were encouraging conservatives to vote 3rd party while they were telling each other to vote for Obama. It’s the age old tactic of divide and conquer. The Democrat party ran an extremely clever and deceptive campaign.
 
No one asked for specifics, but I’ll give some. How about the last two presidential candidates: McCain and Romney. And then there is the last Republican President. W. Bush. Then there’s Bob Dole and George Bush 41. I will admit that all of these candidates were better than the Democratic alternative.

My point is that “better” is not good enough. I can’t just say ‘I will vote for the guy that is not the Democrat because well…he’s not the Democrat.’ and somehow think my conscious will be clear because I can say ‘Well, at least I didn’t chose the guy that’s in favor of murdering unborn babies’. The problem is that if we elect a candidate that can’t actually change anything, then what’s the point.
Changing something strongly embedded in the law is not easy. But there are a lot of things a president can do. Bush actually did change a lot of the Clintonian pro-abortion provisions. If Romney was president today, does anyone really doubt that the HHS Mandate, for example, would NOT be withdrawn?
 
Bush Sr. lost and Clinton won because of Ross Perot. Then Kerry lost and Bush won because of Ralph Nader. McCain and then Romney lost because of a random bunch of 3rd party candidates. The Democrats figured this out and were smart enough to not cast their vote for 3rd party candidate Rosanne Barr. Obama won twice partly because Democrats were united while conservatives were divided. Democrats were encouraging conservatives to vote 3rd party while they were telling each other to vote for Obama. It’s the age old tactic of divide and conquer.
OTOH, maybe most of those Ross Perot, etc. voters might not have voted at all. Only about half the registered voters vote, did you know that?
 
The other approach is to encourage the Democrats to change those objectionable policies and the most effective way to do that is to coalesce behind whoever happens to be their strongest opponent. These people are politicians and would change their positions in a heartbeat if they knew those positions would likely keep them from being elected.
I must disagree with you on this point; the Republicans would indeed change their positions in a heartbeat in order to get elected, or at least many of them would. However, the Democrats cling to their positions like a barnacle clings to a ship. They would merely lie, change their stories, and obfuscate in order to maintain their hold on power. Quite simply, the current leadership of the Democrat party is irrevocably opposed to Church teachings, and can never be persuaded otherwise.
 
OTOH, maybe most of those Ross Perot, etc. voters might not have voted at all. Only about half the registered voters vote, did you know that?
All I know is that the 3rd party candidate for president always has no chance of winning. History consistently shows this. That’s why they are called the “spoiler” candidate. If there wouldn’t have been so much to lose I wouldn’t have minded taking a chance on a third party candidate, but I happen to believe that we should not be forced by the government to accept and pay for the aggressive promotion of abortion and homosexual behavior. The stakes for win or lose were way too high for me to play with far-fetched “what ifs”. So I followed the principles for voting that were given by Pope John Paul II in Evangelium Vitae (which I wish Catholics would read). This encyclical gives practical and realistic instructions for voting Pro-Life so that the Pro-Life movement need not be paralyzed in pursuit of perfection. If every Catholic would have voted using the principle for voting Pro-Life given in Evangelium Vitae we would not have had to have two Fortnight for Freedom campaigns for religious liberty. It’s better to travel where you want to go slowly than to have your wheels spinning off the ground and remaining in place.
 
I don’t see how anyone can say this.

Bush did as much as a president could to protect the unborn. Many were the things he did. Some Repubs in the various states have done likewise. Look at Texas recently, for example.
I’m not anti-Republican…don’t get me wrong. I am anti- “there’s only two choices, therefore since the Democrats are all screwed up, the Republican party is the only way to go”.
So, in 2012, lots of people who did not approve of the Dem party voted third party of didn’t vote at all because Romney was not “ideal”. And what did they cause by doing that? Well, the repeal of DADT, opposition to DOMA, governmental promotion of homosexual “marriage”, government funding of Planned Parenthood.
Romney was less than “not ideal”, he was a bad choice for candidate. Was Romney truly the best the Republicans had to offer?
And one might consider himself “above the fray”, but those who stood it out bear just as much responsibility for what this government is doing now as the Dems who voted for Obama. For some, more so, because those who sniffed and stood aside, mostly knew what evils the Dems were promoting and likely to promote, while lots of Dem voters didn’t.
I just wish I had an option. Unfortunately, Romney already had the nomination sewed up by the time the primary came to my state.
If one doesn’t oppose evil when one can, even imperfectly, one bears responsibility for evil. Those who failed to oppose it in 2012 are just as guilty as the “abortion doctor” who holds the knife.
It’s like this regarding abortion: It all boils down to the Supreme Court. We only have two known allies on the court right now; Scalia & Thomas. I could be wrong, but Alito is probably as good as the other two. I have my doubts about Roberts. We have three known enemies on the court; Ginsberg, Breyer, and Kennedy. I could be wrong, but Kagan is probably as bad as the other three. Sotomeyer is an unknown regarding abortion rights. Her only known abortion case (if I have my facts right) was a case involving the Mexico City policy came to her court (a victory for the pro-life movement…but a “non-ruling” of her thoughts on the issue nonetheless).

In theory, Roe v. Wade could be over-turned right now. Theoretically it could go this way:

(Best hopes from my estimation)

Overturn R v. W: Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Roberts, Sotomayer
Uphold R v. W: Ginsberg, Breyer, Kennedy, Kagan

Or of course it could be worse than we think:

Overturn R v. W: Scalia, Thomas, Alito
Uphold R v. W: Ginsberg, Breyer, Kennedy, Kagan, Roberts, Sotomayer

My point is that we do not know if Sotomayer (an Obama appointee) is a disaster for the pro-life movement.

ontheissues.org/Court/Sonia_Sotomayor_Abortion.htm
Sotomayor ruled against an abortion rights group in its challenge to the so-called “Mexico City Policy,” which states that nations that receive U.S. funds may neither perform nor promote abortions. The abortion rights advocates alleged that the policy violated their First Amendment, due process, and equal protection rights. Sotomayor upheld a lower court ruling dismissing the case, saying that the group’s First Amendment rights had not been violated and that it had not been denied due process. On the equal protection claim, Sotomayor wrote, “The Supreme Court has made clear that the government is free to favor the anti-abortion position over the pro-choice position, and can do so with public funds.” Sotomayor did not address the underlying abortion issue. (Center for Reproductive Law and Policy vs. Bush, 2002)
Sotomayor wrote the opinion in Center for Reproductive Law and Policy v. Bush, 2002, a challenge to the “Mexico City Policy,” which prohibited foreign organizations receiving US funds from performing or supporting abortions. An abortion rights group claimed that the policy violated its First Amendment, due process, and equal protection rights. Relying on the Second Circuit’s earlier decision in Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Inc. v. Agency for International Development, which dealt with a virtually identical claim, Sotomayor’s opinion rejected the group’s First Amendment claim on the merits. Turning to the plaintiffs’ due process claim, Sotomayor held that they lacked standing because they alleged only a harm to foreign organizations, rather than themselves. On their equal protection claim, she ultimately held that the claim failed under rational basis review because the government “is free to favor the anti-abortion position over the pro-choice position” with public funds.
With this information, I want to make it clear that we ought to oppose Obama and should have the past two election cycles. But this does not mean that voting for someone other than Romney means that voter helped assist in continued abortions. For all we know, with the election of Obama, Roe v. Wade may actually be overturned (if Sotomayer becomes the swing vote to overturn once and for all).
 
the problem with that is that there is NO perfect 3rd party and no 3rd party has a chance to win the presidency.
Sorry, if this has already been said.

3rd parties usually take over one of the major two parties in the US.

When the parties aren’t responsive to the needs of the people, then the third party will come into popularity because they are addressing the issues that the people are interested in.

For instance, the Whigs became the Republican Party because of the issue of slavery.

The Whigs didn’t address the issue. The Republicans pushed their issues and got their candidates elected and the Whigs ceased to exist.

Unless you are living in a state with a small population or have unusual political circumstances, 3rd parties don’t win. Both parties have to screw up royally to have an outcome like that. That’s how you get a Jesse Ventura as Governor of MN, for example.

In the States, we have a “winner-take-all” system. Not a parliamentary system. There are advantages/disadvantages to both. This is one of the disadvantages to the “winner-take-all” system. Outside parties and candidates have a hard time breaking through w/o the support of one of the two major parties.
 
If he’s not a solid candidate, why even bother. We’re already over the cliff. We need a strong leader at this point in our nation’s history. One may not exist unfortunately.

Time to hold the Republicans accountable…at least for this lifetime Republican voter.
This is how I feel as well. I’ve stopped donating money to the party (state/national) and only donate to individual candidates represent my views. A lot of times, candidates have a “R” by their name and I have to wonder who they are really serving because I know it’s not me or our best interests.
 
Sorry, if this has already been said.

3rd parties usually take over one of the major two parties in the US.

When the parties aren’t responsive to the needs of the people, then the third party will come into popularity because they are addressing the issues that the people are interested in.

For instance, the Whigs became the Republican Party because of the issue of slavery.

The Whigs didn’t address the issue. The Republicans pushed their issues and got their candidates elected and the Whigs ceased to exist.

Unless you are living in a state with a small population or have unusual political circumstances, 3rd parties don’t win. Both parties have to screw up royally to have an outcome like that. That’s how you get a Jesse Ventura as Governor of MN, for example.

In the States, we have a “winner-take-all” system. Not a parliamentary system. There are advantages/disadvantages to both. This is one of the disadvantages to the “winner-take-all” system. Outside parties and candidates have a hard time breaking through w/o the support of one of the two major parties.
As I said, the stakes were way too high to play with far-fetched “what ifs”. We simply did not have that luxury these past two elections. The Republican candidate matched Pope John Paul II’s description of what a Catholic could and should vote for considering the current circumstances and how the one who basically declared war on the Church had such a strong advantage as the incumbent candidate.
 
Changing something strongly embedded in the law is not easy. But there are a lot of things a president can do. Bush actually did change a lot of the Clintonian pro-abortion provisions. If Romney was president today, does anyone really doubt that the HHS Mandate, for example, would NOT be withdrawn?
I feel it’s a winless battle. It’s so easy to screw things up and extremely difficult to clean up a mess. It’s like making that impulse purchase on your credit card which you regret later and then need to pay the piper later.

Just look how easy it was to undo what Bush had accomplished. Just look how difficult it will be to undo what Obama is doing.

I wish it wasn’t so difficult to the point of asking oneself: What’s the point of trying when we aren’t going to win this one?
 
You can’t vote in the primary if you’re not registered.

Also…in response to another post: NOT to vote against a pro-abortion etc. candidate, is sheer moral cowardice.
It depends on your state.

In my state, you register to vote, but they don’t ask party affiliation.

Yes, you have to be registered to vote by the date of the election (usually 30 days before).

Sadly, a lot of states have “open” primaries. Mine is one of them. We’ve been trying to change this for years, but since we don’t register Party when we register to vote, they fear ticking off “independent” voters more than upsetting regular party activists. :mad:

They = party leadership.
 
This is how I feel as well. I’ve stopped donating money to the party (state/national) and only donate to individual candidates represent my views. A lot of times, candidates have a “R” by their name and I have to wonder who they are really serving because I know it’s not me or our best interests.
We can know by their voting record and by who is against them. If Planned Parenthood hates them then there’s a strong chance that they are Pro-Life. And as I have been posting the link to Evangelium Vitae (which I wish Catholics would read), in today’s situation we live where abortion without limits is the norm we can vote for a candidate who is Pro-Life even if they aren’t 100% so.
 
…the one who basically declared war on the Church…
Basically, I agree with you. I understood how far we have fallen as a nation when so few seemed to care at all about the assault on religion in this country. We are not a majority Christian nation.
 
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