Ahhhh…but the common thread, as you have so eloquently pointed out, is that those who failed so miserably in their understanding and pronouncements in the health care debate, again offer the laser-like clarity of their wisdom concerning the proper response to illegal immigration.Did you hear of the Health care bill? The Bishops were pushing for it! They did not due their homework! Abortion funding is in the Bill! The majority of the Nation was against the Health care bill. Do the Bishops speak out against the Pro Choice Catholics who are U.S. Congresman and U.S. Senators? Do the Bishops enforce Cannon 915 against them? NO THEY DON"T!!!
A State Funeral to one of the most Pro Abortion Senators. Did the U.S. Bishops speak out against it???
Comparing Abortion to Illegal Immigration is Appels and Oranges.
Thanks, but no thanks.Maybe you should clink on this link and watch as the police are being hit by rocks and waterbottles!
humanevents.com/article.php?id=36703
TMC you took the words right out of my mouth.But the same Church that you say has the sole authority to interpret Scripture also tells us that this legislation is immoral. So which is it? Does the Church have the moral authority to speak on this issue or not?
(I will say canadianguy that you probably could’ve worded that a little better since it almost seems as if you’re outraged to be considered a follower of Christ versus being outraged at having your loyalty to Christ questioned…I certainly hope the former is not the case.)How dare you judge us to be followers of Christ.
Afraid of the truth?Thanks, but no thanks.
Maybe you should study Theology and the History of the Church.
When traveling in foreign Countries you need to have a passport. If you don’t you could be in trouble.I’m not expert in this law, I’ve only seen “sound bites” online about it… But the sound bites I’ve seen seem to lend them selves to the idea of setting up immagrant “check points”, where you have to have your US Citizen paperwork ready at hand, if not…? Then what? They lock you up until you can prove you’re not illegal?
For all the talk of socialism floating around in some circles, quite honestly this would scare me more than legislation which yeah I disagree with, but at least it doesn’t set up check points where I better have my documents ready…
SSPX is something different.Did you hear of the healthcare bill?
The Bishops CONDEMNED it.
Are you living in some bubble?
Code:As for the canon: Canon 915 of the Catholic Church's Code of Canon Law states: "Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or the declaration of a penalty as well as others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to communion." Feel free to advise the Bishops re this. The Church is slow to act with grave consequences. It's called an act of patience and mercy. Even excommunication itself exists as a call to REPENTANCE. For example, how long the leash, how long the time before Lefebvre chose his own excommunication? He was clergy, not random laity. A bishop, in fact.
You should revisit Pope Benedict’s Caritas in Veritate. You’re talking about putting Sentiment ahead of Charity. You’re given the faculty of Reason for a purpose. Knee-jerk acts of “compassion” that neglect rational concerns about things like long-term consequences and addressing the real resources of suffering don’t qualify Charity and are found lacking virtue.Ender, if I were forced to choose between hardness of heart or hardness of head, I’d always rather suffer from the latter than from the former. Seeing as God choose the foolish out of this world and not the wise in order to shame the wise. Though, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I do not feel I’m hard of either (though only God truly knows that).
Likewise I’d like to make sure that people viewing this thread don’t think that everyone who is Catholic lacks a sense of Reasoning and Responsibility and simply ascribes to a “if it fees good, do it,” model of Charity.I do not really expect to change anyone’s mind here. Some of you (this is a general “you” not aimed at anyone specifically) may go on hating and persecuting others but I and many others will go on trying in our own small ways to do the opposite. I just wanted to make sure that anyone viewing this thread didn’t think that everyone who is Catholic is so callous towards illegal immigrants.
Yet you seem to continue to be non-responsive to posts wherein you’re cornered.Afraid of the truth?
I do study on theology and History of the Church. The Crusades? Also as pointed out the Chuch does talk about migrants by having them obey the laws and uphold Civic Duties!
Does following the rules and filling out the paperwork come to mind?
The Church does not say that the Illegals should break the Laws?
Welcoming and be taken advantage of is two different things!
As for the canon:
Canon 915 of the Catholic Church's Code of Canon Law states:
"Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or the declaration of a penalty as well as others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to communion."
Feel free to advise the Bishops re this.
The Church is slow to act with grave consequences.
It's called an act of patience and mercy.
Even excommunication itself exists as a call to REPENTANCE.
For example,
how long the leash, how long the time before Lefebvre chose his own excommunication?
He was clergy, not random laity. A bishop, in fact.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by catharina; Today at 11:46 am. Reason: addition"Ah, you did respond belatedly.SSPX is something different.
Comparing SSPX and Leaders who support Abortion is Apples and Oranges!
OK, very few forgin countries (certainly that I would visit) have very many checkpoints set up. Certainly not random ones just to check your papers, this is something one would expect of communist russia, not a theoretically free nation.When traveling in foreign Countries you need to have a passport. If you don’t you could be in trouble.
Before entering any foreign country, do your homework, get the basics of the laws. Make sure you have proper ID.
Can you drive without a License or Car insurence?
When comming her make sure you have a pasport or ID card.
What is wrong with that?
Yep. You got it.OK, very few forgin countries (certainly that I would visit) have very many checkpoints set up. Certainly not random ones just to check your papers, this is something one would expect of communist russia, not a theoretically free nation.
That doesn’t just affect illegals, particularly in this economy so I can see the Church disagreeing on this point as well… As for the rest of it, you’re right I’m not an expert on the law I said as much in my first post. My point is, the verbage of the law seems to lend it’s self exactly to this. Why not just remove whatever leaniancy that might have existed in existing laws? States certainly already had the right to deport people illegally in nation, why create verbage that allows for random checkpoints to be set up?Yup, which is why nobody can produce any evidence of new “papers checkpoints” being developed at this time. It is all speculation by people who are largely ignorant of the law to incite hatred while accusing the “other side” of being “haters.” In that respect it reminds me of the Prop 8 protest fiasco in California not too long ago.
There are certainly already Federal checkpoints at ports of entry and the Hoover Dam. We also have state DPS smuggling check-points and drunk-driving check-points to enforce existing laws.
Nice feature of this law as well: making soliciting work on sidewalks and roads illegal. I suppose you could try to spin that as “checkpoints” for day-laborers. We do, however, already have legitimate day labor centers in Arizona that do not block traffic.
- Marty Lund
Not everything that is a crime in the federal law is immoral.I am stunned that you do not know that Illegal Immigration is “FEDERAL CRIME” in the U.S. and is punshable.
…
Also did you answer my question about “Sould Illegals go throughthe process and fill out the paperwork, Learn English and Assimulate?”
Actually, all the 911 hijackers were in the US legally.You probaly forgot to mention that people who are anti Illegal Immigration are xenophobic!
What is wrong with obeying the law?
America has a faberic that comes unwound when Illegal Immigration gets ignored**. Open borders cause 9-11.** Soverignty is at stake. It is unfair that Illegals get Student loans, Health Care, Jobs, and Housing. While Hard working Americans who followed the Law, went to school, had jobs and then the jobs went over the border and overseas. How do think they feel when they have to support their family while the Illegals are taking the jobs, Housekeeping, Construction or food service and they are on the unemployment line? How do you think they feel when the Bishops say to give to support the poor migrant workers while there own family is starving?
Yes, it doesn’t just affect illegals. It is a good law all around. Our parkways and thoroughfares are not for haggling with, loading, and unloading of workers.That doesn’t just affect illegals, particularly in this economy so I can see the Church disagreeing on this point as well…
Please, cite some verbiage that provides for setting up check-points that weren’t already permitted under Arizona state law?As for the rest of it, you’re right I’m not an expert on the law I said as much in my first post. My point is, the verbage of the law seems to lend it’s self exactly to this. Why not just remove whatever leaniancy that might have existed in existing laws? States certainly already had the right to deport people illegally in nation, why create verbage that allows for random checkpoints to be set up?
Beyond “draconian” being a subjective term, all the “draconian” tactics I’ve seen suggested so far have been the fevered dreams of partisans rather than anything substantiated with evidence.I can understand a desire to be tough on immagration (personally I would love to see it easier for people to come legally, but that’s an aside). But we should do so with out taking extreme draconian steps.
Wrong.Actually, all the 911 hijackers were in the US legally.
It saddens me that you feel this way, the people in this position are in their greatest moments of needing Charity. Sure you have people who we might classify as “bumbs”, but you know what? It’s not our job to evaluate the condition and status of someone’s heart. I would suggest mediating on (perhaps alectio divina) on Matthew 31 on through the end of the chapter. It’s quite applicable here.Yes, it doesn’t just affect illegals. It is a good law all around. Our parkways and thoroughfares are not for haggling with, loading, and unloading of workers.
Like I said, I haven’t read the laws but there are all sorts of allutions in reports I’ve read such asPlease, cite some verbiage that provides for setting up check-points that weren’t already permitted under Arizona state law?
The new law makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally. Immigrants unable to produce documents showing they are allowed to be in the U.S. could be arrested, jailed for up to six months and fined $2,500.
There have been more than just this, but I really can’t do an exhastive search right now.Arizona officers would arrest people found to be undocumented and turn them over to federal immigration officers. Opponents said the federal government can block the law by refusing to accept them.
If we start demanding peoples paper work on the streets, then yes that is quite draconian… And it’s not unreasoble to see this as the logical ends, as otherwise this law makes no changes to existing statutes in this regard and there for would be wasted ink in the law.Beyond “draconian” being a subjective term, all the “draconian” tactics I’ve seen suggested so far have been the fevered dreams of partisans rather than anything substantiated with evidence.
- Marty Lund