Catholic Bishops against Arizona legislation

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Is there anyone who really thinks that we ought to be so regulated by the federal government that they can tell a private business what languages they can and can not use in advertising? Ironic how many red-blooded Americans will abandon liberty when they can use the federal government to their benefit.

If you do not like bi-linugal signs, then use your freedom to shop elsewhere, or not.
 
The whole world cannot come to live here.
And as Christians do we have any duty to the poor?

Personally, I think that legal immigration should be 100% open to all, non-criminal, male or female, who want to come here and contribute. If we would mandate that even the poor pay some tax, the immigration is a tremendous resource that could make us a greater nation.
 
Is there anyone who really thinks that we ought to be so regulated by the federal government that they can tell a private business what languages they can and can not use in advertising? Ironic how many red-blooded Americans will abandon liberty when they can use the federal government to their benefit.

If you do not like bi-linugal signs, then use your freedom to shop elsewhere, or not.
Totally ditto. Completely agree with your post.
 
So since those against this legislation are saying that this will cause Racial profiling, why am I hearing on Fox News that racial profiling is specifically PROHIBITED in the legislation and confirmed by one of the State Senators?

What the legislation does give law officers is the ability to ask for citizenship papers if the person is already suspected (Probable Cause) of ANOTHER crime.
 
For those who are saying that the bishops, rabbis and Protestant pastors who have written have no place in this discussion, we have to stop and reconsider that position. The Church has a right to make her presence felt in all areas of society. This is within her mission to preach the Good News to all nations. When there is a moral issue that has to be addressed, the Church has every right to speak.

There are moral issues in this bill, as other posters have pointed out. The greatest moral problem with this bill is that it allows police to detain an individual who cannot provide documentation that they are here legally. This raises several serious questions. Does the individual have to carry his passport and visa with him? Will the person be detained if he does not have them? If these answers are affirmative, that’s a grave injustice, as this is not required of any other ethnic or language group. Injustice always falls under the moral authority of the Church.

In addition, there is the potential for racial profiling. There are many American Hispanics. Some are honest hard working people and others are criminals too. Just because they are Americans, does not mean that they always do the right thing. The motivation for this bill was crime and violence. To pass a bill that singularizes one group of people can give the rest of the world the impression that this group is culpable for all the crimes and violence in that state. That would be a falsehood. Falsehoods are immoral. The Church has a right to speak out on this.

If you notice, the bishops, rabbis and pastors who have reacted to this bill are not opposing fighting crime. They are opposing the fact that the bill opens the door for injustice against a sector of society. It also makes that sector very vulnerable. If an illegal immigrant is assaulted, raped, burglarized, does he have to remain quiet out of fear of being deported? Is this fair? Does this conform to the Gospel? Again the bishops have a right to speak up for the Gospel and proclaim that this is not morally acceptable.

As to the question of obedience to the bishops, when a bishop takes a position on something that is not a moral or doctrinal position, the individual is allowed to make a personal judgment. When a bishop presents a moral teaching, it is not the bishop whom we are obeying, but the moral teaching. A moral teaching remains a moral teaching, whether it is communicated by a bishop, council or a pope. Yes, we are bound to obey the moral law over the civil law. When the civil law creates situations for immoral actions, then the civil law has to be called into question and modifications have to be made to it so that it protects the innocent from the guilty and so that it does not place individuals in positions where they are afraid to call upon law enforcement when they need assistance or protection. It is contrary to the Gospel to allow for the existence of civil laws that are in conflict with moral law.

As Catholics we must remember that civil law is never to be taken as moral law. It is also to be understood that our examination of all civil laws must be against the background of the Church’s teachings. Finally, as Catholics we have a duty to take seriously what our bishops say and examine why they say what they say, before we simply dismiss them. These are not perfect men, but they remain the lawful successors of the apostles. Therefore, we cannot simply dismiss a statement by an apostle. If we’re unsure what is being said or why, we have a duty to ask and to learn, always against the backdrop of Church teaching.

I hope this helps someone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
For those who are saying that the bishops, rabbis and Protestant pastors who have written have no place in this discussion, we have to stop and reconsider that position. The Church has a right to make her presence felt in all areas of society. This is within her mission to preach the Good News to all nations. When there is a moral issue that has to be addressed, the Church has every right to speak.

There are moral issues in this bill, as other posters have pointed out. The greatest moral problem with this bill is that it allows police to detain an individual who cannot provide documentation that they are here legally. This raises several serious questions. Does the individual have to carry his passport and visa with him? Will the person be detained if he does not have them? If these answers are affirmative, that’s a grave injustice, as this is not required of any other ethnic or language group. Injustice always falls under the moral authority of the Church.

In addition, there is the potential for racial profiling. There are many American Hispanics. Some are honest hard working people and others are criminals too. Just because they are Americans, does not mean that they always do the right thing. The motivation for this bill was crime and violence. To pass a bill that singularizes one group of people can give the rest of the world the impression that this group is culpable for all the crimes and violence in that state. That would be a falsehood. Falsehoods are immoral. The Church has a right to speak out on this.

If you notice, the bishops, rabbis and pastors who have reacted to this bill are not opposing fighting crime. They are opposing the fact that the bill opens the door for injustice against a sector of society. It also makes that sector very vulnerable. If an illegal immigrant is assaulted, raped, burglarized, does he have to remain quiet out of fear of being deported? Is this fair? Does this conform to the Gospel? Again the bishops have a right to speak up for the Gospel and proclaim that this is not morally acceptable.

As to the question of obedience to the bishops, when a bishop takes a position on something that is not a moral or doctrinal position, the individual is allowed to make a personal judgment. When a bishop presents a moral teaching, it is not the bishop whom we are obeying, but the moral teaching. A moral teaching remains a moral teaching, whether it is communicated by a bishop, council or a pope. Yes, we are bound to obey the moral law over the civil law. When the civil law creates situations for immoral actions, then the civil law has to be called into question and modifications have to be made to it so that it protects the innocent from the guilty and so that it does not place individuals in positions where they are afraid to call upon law enforcement when they need assistance or protection. It is contrary to the Gospel to allow for the existence of civil laws that are in conflict with moral law.

As Catholics we must remember that civil law is never to be taken as moral law. It is also to be understood that our examination of all civil laws must be against the background of the Church’s teachings. Finally, as Catholics we have a duty to take seriously what our bishops say and examine why they say what they say, before we simply dismiss them. These are not perfect men, but they remain the lawful successors of the apostles. Therefore, we cannot simply dismiss a statement by an apostle. If we’re unsure what is being said or why, we have a duty to ask and to learn, always against the backdrop of Church teaching.

I hope this helps someone.

Brother, I hope it helps many people.
It’s shocking to hear many say the Bishops, rabbis, ministers should keep silent.
If such are moral leaders (and they are), why would they keep quiet on morality of laws?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Any religious leader, regardless of his faith tradition, who keeps quiet when there is the possibility for a breach of moral law, is doing a disservice to his people. If you truly believe that X is what God wants, then you have a moral duty to proclaim that. This is not just for Catholics.

I have much more respect for a Muslim who stands up for what he believes is God’s law than for a Catholic who is indifferent to the law of God, even though I may disagree with the Muslim’s interpretation of God’s law. But at least he is trying to fulfill God’s will as he understands it.

In this regrad, Catholics have become very complacent. We fail to even try to understand God’s laws and God’s expectations of us. We have to recover our spiritual curiosity. When something like this happens, we must always ask, why is the Church saying this? Never assume that because something does not make sense to us it makes it nonsensical.

I have found that the two most difficult areas in the Catholic faith for most people to understand is moral theology and sacramental theology. That’s why I always encourage people not to be too ready to dismiss. If you’re not well versed in either, look it up or ask someone who may know. Never ask, are the bishops right or wrong on this? If you ask that question, you’re going to get someone’s opinion. The question should always be, what is the theological or pastoral reason behind this? You’ll find that most people don’t know the answer and that’s why they just spout off their opinion.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
There are, or at least used to be (have the Bishops repealed them?) two of the ten commandments that were relevant to this issue. One said “thou shalt not steal”. The other said “thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods”. Both affirm a God-given right to private property. A person cannot simply come onto my property and seize it for his own benefit - God forbids that.
And that is precisely what illegal immigration is all about. Trespassers covet and steal our private property for their own benefit. And God specifically forbids that.
The defenders of illegal immigration take a different moral tack. These people are, they maintain, poor, and in need of our assistance. It’a true that some of them are. Many are not. Many are robbers and thieves and smugglers and drug dealers. But others are, in fact, poor.
God commands us to help the poor. And we should do that, and I try to. But I cannot find a single sentence in the teachings of Christ that says that my obligation to help the poor requires that I stand by while they steal my property for their own use.
We do need to help these poor people. It is good to allow some to immigrate, to allow others to enter on temporary work permits and make some money before returning home, and help and support others through Catholic missions and CRS.
On the other hand, it is immoral and counterproductive for any misguided person to suggest they have the right to steal from us, even if that morally misguided person is a consecrated Bishop.
 
So since those against this legislation are saying that this will cause Racial profiling, why am I hearing on Fox News that racial profiling is specifically PROHIBITED in the legislation and confirmed by one of the State Senators?

What the legislation does give law officers is the ability to ask for citizenship papers if the person is already suspected (Probable Cause) of ANOTHER crime.
Just backing up you statement with sources from Fox News…

Arizona Lawmaker Defends Immigration Law

youtube.com/watch?v=lLGtShVY0dg

Sarah Palin Joins Immigration Debate

youtube.com/watch?v=0E-uR8GqynY

‘Lawbreakers’ Supported Over Law Keepers?

youtube.com/watch?v=pqojyR-BidA
 
. Many are not. Many are robbers and thieves and smugglers and drug dealers. But others are, in fact, poor.
God commands us to help the poor. And we should do that, and I try to. But I cannot find a single sentence in the teachings of Christ that says that my obligation to help the poor requires that I stand by while they steal my property for their own use.
We do need to help these poor people. It is good to allow some to immigrate, to allow others to enter on temporary work permits and make some money before returning home, and help and support others through Catholic missions and CRS.
On the other hand, it is immoral and counterproductive for any misguided person to suggest they have the right to steal from us, even if that morally misguided person is a consecrated Bishop.
Exactly! There is a difference between someone coming to your door, hungry and without a coat who asks for help and someone who breaks into your house when you’re at work, steals food from your cupboards and clothes from your closet.

Do you think the law was enacted to send poor people back to their homeland? Let’s live in the real world. It has truly become the wild west in some of those border states and it’s the violent criminals who are the reason Arizona’s lawmakers felt they had to take a stand. The federal government whose duty it IS to protect the borders has been focused on everything but what they are supposed to be doing. Health care anyone?

I think it was misguided of the Bishops to make a broad brush statement against the law. Were they to thoughtfully analyze its provisions and state where they believe human rights would be violated, their outcry would be more credible.

Lisa A
 
There are, or at least used to be (have the Bishops repealed them?) two of the ten commandments that were relevant to this issue. One said “thou shalt not steal”. The other said “thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods”. Both affirm a God-given right to private property. A person cannot simply come onto my property and seize it for his own benefit - God forbids that.
And that is precisely what illegal immigration is all about. Trespassers covet and steal our private property for their own benefit. And God specifically forbids that.
The defenders of illegal immigration take a different moral tack. These people are, they maintain, poor, and in need of our assistance. It’a true that some of them are. Many are not. Many are robbers and thieves and smugglers and drug dealers. But others are, in fact, poor.
God commands us to help the poor. And we should do that, and I try to. But I cannot find a single sentence in the teachings of Christ that says that my obligation to help the poor requires that I stand by while they steal my property for their own use.
We do need to help these poor people. It is good to allow some to immigrate, to allow others to enter on temporary work permits and make some money before returning home, and help and support others through Catholic missions and CRS.
On the other hand, it is immoral and counterproductive for any misguided person to suggest they have the right to steal from us, even if that morally misguided person is a consecrated Bishop.
The bishops are not saying that illegal immigration is a good thing. They are saying that this particular legislation lends itself to immoral actions on the part of law enforcement. You cannot correct one injustice with another injustice. That’s a vioaltion of moral law. For years the bishops and the pope have been calling for immigration reform that is just for everyone involved, not just band-aids.

What I find most disconcerting is when Catholics are quick to dismiss an opinion that comes from the bishops, just because it’s the bishops. To dismiss the opinion of an apostle is no small thing. As I said before, you must always ask yourself what is the theological or pastoral concept behind the statement.

You comment above about the two commandments that may have been deleted by the bishops shows an unwillingness on your part to recall that you’re talking about the apostles. They are not perfect human beings, but it does not change who they are. They are the apostles and they deserve to be spoken about with respect. Whatever they say on a moral issue must be considered, because it’s not the bishop to whom we have to answer, but to God. Moral law comes from God. The bishops only teach it. That’s their job and that’s what they’re doing in this case and they are being joined by other religious leaders who also have a duty to teach morality.

If one does not feel that one needs the apostles, then it raises the question, why remain Catholic? There are many non-apostolic ecclesial communities. But if one remains Catholic, one must give serious attention to what the apostles teach and when one is unsure, one has a moral duty to ask for a clarification, not just take the oposing point of view. That has never been acceptable in any of the 22 apostolic Churches. Why should we start that practice now?

Again, the question is, what is the pastoral or theological concept behind this statement that the bishops are making? Is it consistent with the teachings of the Church? It does not have to be consistent with public opinion or with the State. In the end, the Church does not care what any state thinks. She cares about morality, dogma and sacraments. She will challenge any state when they cross those lines. That’s her job.

I would also suggest that you find out under what circumstances does the Church teach that stealing is morally culpable and what circumstance it is not morally culpable. It is always stealing, but it is not alwasy morally culpable if you follow the rules of the Church. There are circumstances under which the Church mitigates culpability. She has the authority to do that. That’s her authority to bind and unbind. The bishops do not abuse their authority when they bind and unbind, as long as they do so in communion with Peter.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I think it was misguided of the Bishops to make a broad brush statement against the law. Were they to thoughtfully analyze its provisions and state where they believe human rights would be violated, their outcry would be more credible.

Lisa A
I don’t think it’s misguided. I think that we’re reacting prematurely. All we have to go on right now is the news. We need to wait for their written statement to see how much they have said and what the theology behind it is. That will surely come in the next few days. Never trust the news when reporting what the bishops say. They always give you bullets.

I don’t mean to say that they are out to make the bishops look badly. It’s just a fact that no one reads a news article that runs for pages with all kinds of points and sub-points. News writers bullet a few statements, because that’s the most that people want to read. They’re going to bullet what will get the reader’s attention.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
More sources if they haven’t been posted yet…

Arizona Catholic Conference Bishops Statement on Legislation Impacting Vulnerable Populations

diocesephoenix.org/acc/documents/BishopsStmtonLegisREvulnerablepopulationsMarch2010.pdf

A Copy of the House of Representatives SB 1070 immigration; law enforcement; safe neighborhoods (NOW: safe neighborhoods; immigration; law enforcement)

azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/h.sb1070_04-19-10_astransmittedtogovernor.doc.htm
So the bishops’ letter does give specific moral concerns. Then there should be no argument on the part of Catholics. The challenge is to write the law in such a way so that those moral concerns are no longer present. The bishops are not asking for a pass for criminals. They are being very specific about what they see as the weakness in the law.

The things that they point to are things that any Catholic should be concerned about.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This comes from the Archdiocese of Phoenix website.
In addition to the concerns expressed by local police agencies throughout Arizona, we are concerned that the present language of these bills does not clearly state that undocumented persons who become victims of crime can come forward without fear of deportation.
After all, it is in all of our best interests that all people in our state – regardless of their citizenship status – should not be afraid to report crimes. Anything that may deter crimes from being reported or prosecuted will only keep dangerous criminals on the streets, making our communities less safe.
Another aspect of these bills that concerns us is that Arizona would become the first state in the nation to codify its own “illegal immigration” law by requiring persons who are here unlawfully in terms of federal law to be charged with trespassing under Arizona law. The charge for the first offense would be a high misdemeanor; for the second offense a felony.
We understand that supporters of these bills claim that the intent of this “trespassing” law is to allow local police to hold undocumented immigrants who are suspects in crimes However, the bill itself does not limit enforcement to persons suspected of criminal activity, thus leaving the possibility of criminalizing the presence of even children and young persons brought into our country by their parents. If enacted, these bills could lead to separation of family members that would not take place under current federal law.
We believe it would be far better to withdraw these bills than to risk costly and unfairly punitive enforcement.
As far as I can see, the Bishop in Arizona has two concerns over the bill. I’ve highlighted those concerns in the quotation above in bold.

Curiously enough, the Bishop’s concerns seem to have been drowned out by the media blitz over this law. I’m seeing other issues in the news discussions, but I’m not seeing the Bishop’s particular concerns being emphasized. For example, this blog makes an attempt to debunk information about the bill that has been misreported by a news source:

espressopundit.com/2010/04/the-broad-anti-immigrant-bill-passed-by-the-legislature-this-week-makes-it-a-crime-to-be-in-the-country-illegally–wrong.html

As for the Bishop’s second concern, legislators are reporting that the bill only goes after criminals. I say we wait and get more information concerning the what is in the law. I have posted the bill above. I hope people will read it.
 
The law you need is one that requires employers to require some proof of U.S. citizenship of the people they hire,and to fine them substantially if they do not comply.
I believe that Sections 6, 7 & 8 of the Arizona law (SB1070) address this fairly well. Please read these sections yourself to see if you agree.
 
This comes from the Archdiocese of Phoenix website.

As far as I can see, the Bishop in Arizona has two concerns over the bill. I’ve highlighted those concerns in the quotation above in bold.

Curiously enough, the Bishop’s concerns seem to have been drowned out by the media blitz over this law. I’m seeing other issues in the news discussions, but I’m not seeing the Bishop’s particular concerns being emphasized. For example, this blog makes an attempt to debunk information about the bill that has been misreported by a news source:

espressopundit.com/2010/04/the-broad-anti-immigrant-bill-passed-by-the-legislature-this-week-makes-it-a-crime-to-be-in-the-country-illegally–wrong.html

As for the Bishop’s second concern, legislators are reporting that the bill only goes after criminals. I say we wait and get more information concerning the what is in the law. I have posted the bill above. I hope people will read it.
I agree with you Sonic. Let’s wait for the wording to be complete. I read the legislation that you posted and the bishops’ point is well made. The two moral concerns that they have are not addressed in that particular copy of the law. If those moral concerns are not addressed in a more detailed version of the law, then there is a problem with the way that the law is written.

I also agree that the media blitz was bulleted, as I said in another post. What we read in my home town was that the bishops opposed legislation to control illegal immigration. It made no mention of the bishops’ letter and the points that they raise in their letter. I would like to hope that the writer of the article was trying to be concise rather than dishonest. Sometimes, concise is not always clear.

It does continue to concern me to hear Catholic quickly dimiss the statements of bishops without asking for a theological or pastoral explanation, forgetting that these are the apostles. The apostles are not to be dismissed, regardless of our opinions. If we are Catholics, we must be apostolic. That means that we must be respectful toward and in communion with the apsotles. Otherwise, why be Catholic? If they’re talking about something that has nothing to do with faith, morals or sacraments, but is simply an opinion, everyone is entitled to have one. The bishops are US citizens. But when they bring up morality, then it’s not just an opinion and it goes further than the bishops. It involves our fidelity to revelation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The law you need is one that requires employers to require some proof of U.S. citizenship of the people they hire,and to fine them substantially if they do not comply.
You do not need to be a US citizen to work in the USA. You need a work permit. Even foreign students can work while they are here, as long as they have a permit. Right now about 20% of our clergy are not American citizens. They are here on a missionary visa and they are alllowed to be paid a salary, like any other independent contractor from a foreign country. If they pay into SS, they are allowed to collect it too. They pay taxes like everyone else, unless they are consecrated religious. Consecrated religious do not pay taxes, but secular priests do. Both can be in the USA without being citizens or permanent residents. This also applies to military personell from other countries, employees of the UN and its agencies, diplomats and their family members. For example, the son of an ambassador can hold a job in the USA without being a resident. He has diplomatic immunity; therefore, he can hold a job and does not pay taxes. The same happens when our diplomats take their families abroad. There are many circumstances under which a person can work in the USA without citizenship. People who live within a certain distance of the Mexican-American border can live in Mexico and work within the USA with a work permit. What is interesting is that this is not the case for Canadians. They do not need a visa to enter the USA, just a valid passport. Neither do the British. They can enter with a valid passport. Once they are hear they can establish domicile and get a work permit and apply for permanent residence. There is a time limit, I believe it may be six months. That may have changed. The reason I mention this is because my family is Brit. In the past it was very easy for Brits and Canadians to enter and leave the USA without visas or permits. Anyone who had a British or Canadian passport could enter, regardless of where they were born. This raised eyebrows among many people. You can probably see why.

That’s why I don’t know if they have changed this. Because it did make the USA look very racist toward Latin Americans. In the meantime, terrorists were entering via another legal means.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
In the past it was very easy for Brits and Canadians to enter and leave the USA without visas or permits. Anyone who had a British or Canadian passport could enter, regardless of where they were born. This raised eyebrows among many people. You can probably see why.
No. I don;t see why anyone should raise eyebrows at that. The fact is that Canadians and British are civilised and decent people and I don;t see why they should be required to have visas to come to the USA. After all, Americans can enter Canada with just a passport can’t they. Why would anyone propose to shut down the borders between the USA and Canada. I think that idea is a very poor one indeed.
 
The bishops are not saying that illegal immigration is a good thing.
Of course they do not come out and say so directly, but they are effectively advocating lawlessness and disobedience to Caesar in the matter of immigration, contrary to what Our Lord commanded with reference to rendering to Caesar. We are obligated to be good citizens and it is wrong to go around and flagrantly violate these immigration laws. And anyone who objects is compared to the Nazis in Gernamy according to Cardinal Mahony. Well, I wonder where everyone was when the Jews were being rounded up in Germany? And now they give us this rhetoric about how we are like Nazis if we believe that the laws of our beloved country should be obeyed by all.
 
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