Catholic Bishops against Arizona legislation

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So you accept that we have a moral obligation to support increasing the minimum wage? That is precisely what my bishop claimed … and it was simply bunk. Something doesn’t become a moral issue merely because a bishop declares it so. I agree that we may not casually dismiss what they say but if their comments are obviously flawed they carry no weight.
Even after the misbehavior of so many bishops in the sex abuse scandals you can still make a statement like this? They have their roles and we have ours and they are no more justified in encroaching on our responsibilities than we are on theirs. This issue was addressed at least as far back as the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215:

*42. ** Clerics and laity are not to usurp each others rights ***
  • Just as we desire lay people not to usurp the rights of clerics, so we ought to wish clerics not to lay claim to the rights of the laity. We therefore forbid every cleric henceforth to extend his jurisdiction, under pretext of ecclesiastical freedom, to the prejudice of secular justice. Rather, let him be satisfied with the written constitutions and customs hitherto approved, so that the things of Caesar may be rendered unto Caesar, and the things of God may be rendered unto God by a right distribution.*
You keep saying “the Church” as if “the Church” was actually involved in any of this. There is no Church statement on the Arizona law; all we have are comments from various bishops. Don’t equate the two; you surely know they are not necessarily the same.

Ender
Did you write the Sacred Congregation for the Faith or the Sacred Congregation for Bishops? If you believe that a bishop has overstepped his bounds, that’s where you go. You do not take the law into your hands and decided to disobey. We don’t have that kind of right. We can only disobey when we are asked to sin. In every other situation, we must seek the guidance of the higher ecclesial authority. That’s why it exists, so that we do not have two billion Catholics going in every direction.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I have deleted some posts and given some infractions. Remember, no one may make any uncharitable or disrespectful comments toward clergy or religious. If it happens again, the thread my have to be closed, pending moderator review.

You may share your opinions, but stick to the article in the OP and avoid uncharitable comments toward each other or the clergy and religious.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Thomas Casey
Moderator
 
I’ll let St. Francis answer this for you. “If you meet the most corrupt priest, the most shameful of men, the most sinful creature and an angel, be sure to venerate the priest first. Onlly the priest can bring you the feal presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Only the priest can forgive your sins. And only the priest is authorized to speak for Christ himself. No matter his sins, the truth that he preaches is always the truth.”
good point!

to be honest, i’m not sure what the right thing to do is. i’m just venting that for many catholics the motives of the vocal bishops is questioned, perhaps even unjustly.

i agree that we should be very very careful when judging our bishops and that i’m a big hypocrite when it comes to this.
 
No. I don;t see why anyone should raise eyebrows at that. The fact is that Canadians and British are civilised and decent people and I don;t see why they should be required to have visas to come to the USA. After all, Americans can enter Canada with just a passport can’t they. Why would anyone propose to shut down the borders between the USA and Canada. I think that idea is a very poor one indeed.
Are we talking about the same UK and Canada who have the most immoral laws in the Western Hemisphere: abortion, infanticide, euthanasia, and same-sex marriage? How civilized is it to kill innocent people?

Americans can also enter all the Latin American countries without visas. We have imposed that on them as a condition for trade. We also imposed it on Canada.

In almost every Latin American country killing the unborn is still murder. Ifanticide is murder. Euthanasia is murder and same-sex marriage is banned in everyone of those countries. In some divorce is illegal and in most contraception is very tightly controlled by the medical community.

What’s your criteria for decent? Are you saying that Hispanics are not decent people, including those that share your faith and uphold the teachings of your Church? The British and the Canadians laugh at and scorn the moral teachings of your faith, haven’t you noticed this?

They have rewritten Christian law to suit their agendas. The few faithful Christians are a handful of Catholics that make up a minority of their countries.

No one is advocating crime. But let’s not redefine civilized and decent. I see nothing civilized or decent about two nations that tolerate murder and sexual immorality. The few Candadians and Brits who challenge that system are decent. The ones one who extol it and export it are not the people whom I want as my next-door neighbor. What’s there to gain if you have an immigrant who does not tax your economic system or commit a violent crime on the street, but subsribes to and supports violence against the unborn, innocent and vulnerable? What is there good in an immigrant who challenges and questions the sacredness of marriage and the family? Is this the person whom you want to associate with your family?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
good point!

to be honest, i’m not sure what the right thing to do is. i’m just venting that for many catholics the motives of the vocal bishops is questioned, perhaps even unjustly.

i agree that we should be very very careful when judging our bishops and that i’m a big hypocrite when it comes to this.
My friend, we’re all hypocrites in one way or another. A nun once asked St. Teresa of Avila why she prayed for the salvation of Judas’ Iscariot. St. Teresa responded, “We have all betrayed him.”

The beautiful part in what you have posted is the acknowledgement that you (and me too) have to tone it down when it comes to the manner in which we speak about our bishops. God rewards this kind of honest. Because this is true humility.

I’m not saying that the law is right or wrong. I’m neither a lawyer nor a moral theologian. In fact, my background is Mystical Theology. I deal in the spiritual life and the sanctification of the soul. Every other theology outside of that I know in broad stokes. It’s like a medical doctor. We all study every branch of theology in short courses. But each of us specializes in an area. Moral theology is not my specialty. I had two years of it in the Master’s program and that was it.

But from my studies in Mystical Theology, which were seven years, I know this: the soul cannot reach God without a priest to absolve its sin and feed it the Eucharist. I also know that the Church is the Bride of Christ and that sould is brought into union with God by the Church, whether the person is Catholic or not, only the Church can extend God’s grace to the soul.

I also know that the Church was not built upon saints, but upon sinners. The apostles all had faults. It is foolish for us to expect our modern apostles to be saints. We hope and pray that all of us will become saints together.

From what I know about he great saints and mystics, the one thing that they all had in common was an unwavering respect for the bishops and the Holy Father. They never stepped outside of the system when they confronted a problem. They worked within the system. That’s why I encourage Catholics to write their bishop and ask questions. If you don’t get an answer that makes sense, white the Roman Curia. Thats’ what they’re there for. But don’t become your bishop’s bishop.

If we want to spread our faith, we have to be the first to show respect for the Church. The Church is lead by the successor of Peter in union with the successors of the other apostles. When one apostle speaks, he must be heard and be given the benefit of the doubt until someone in higher authority says that he is wrong or his brother apostles challenge him and he recants.

But it is never the right or role of the clergy, religious or laity to ignore the voice of a bishop. Our souls depend on them for the sacraments. Our souls depend on them for communion with the pope. We are not directly connected to the Chair of Peter. Every soul in a diocese is connected to its bishop who is the head of the local Church, whether he’s a saint or a thief. He reamins the head of the local Church. Only through him are our souls connected to the unviversal Church. Our deacons and priests take their power from the local bishop. Without him, they have no power. If they have no power, we have no direct flow of grace to nurture the soul.

As you can see, their role in our lives is an essential one. Just as we would not be dismissive of the heart in favor of the lungs, we cannot be dismissive of the bishops in favor or our opinions.

Some have quoted the canons regarding the right of the laity in the political arena. No one is taking away that right. But it remains the role of the Church, through her bishops to teach morality to the political world. The bishps cannot be expelled from the world of politics. As the mystics and saints have taught us, the world of politics needs the voice of conscience. Even politicians have souls and they too need salvation. Their souls are in danger when they propose legislation that is in conflict with the social teachings of the Church.

Mystical theology tells us that the bishop has a moral duty to guide every soul to a closer union with God, by shaping that soul according to the mind of the Church. When the bishop fails to form a soul, the whole Church must do penance. This was taught to us by Catherine of Siena.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It has been claimed by several that the bishops do not represent the Magisterium. So, which bishops have come out and supported this law? I here lot of lay people back it, but where are the leaders of the Chuch that back this legislation?
 
Be careful here. You’re treading on dangerous ground. The rule of thumb is to err on the side of caution. When the pope or the bishops say that something is a moral issue, we must take it as such until proven otherwise. The reason for this is that we do not have the ecclesial authority that they have, nor the right of apostolic succession that they have. Therefore, they have a right to teach that we do not have. It always requies a higher ranking authority to say that a bishop is wrong, not a lower member of the Church. The Church is setup in a hierarchical system.

When in doubt the laity has three options.
  1. Follow the bishop’s lead and see how it plays out.
  2. Ask the bishop for futher understanding.
  3. Confer with the Sacred Congregation of the Faith or the Sacred Congregation for the Bishops.
But laity, clergy and religious can are not morally allowed to circumvent a bishop, based on their own judgment. Our judgment must always be in communion with the Church… We know that the Church has social teachings regarding the issue of immigration. Those teachings are binding on us, because the popes intended them to be moral teachings. Once the Church calls something faith or morals, we have to pay attention. We can’t dismiss it on our own authority.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
The bishops rightly may raise moral objections since law ought to be founded on morality.
But the basic question here is beyond their competence, which is the division of power between the state and central government, and the state has taken great care to copy the federal statute. And one thing to remember: under our system, a a person is first of all
a citizen of Arizona and then a citizen of the United States. The record of his birth is a state document. His usual form of identification is a state driver’s license. His car is registered by the state. His place of residence is in the state. The school he attends is a state school. Most of the government officials he deals with are state and local officials. An illegal alien is literally an intruder into the state. The Federal government is obligated by the Constitution to prevent such intrusions. The state cannot be indifferent to such intrusions, especially when they reach such levels that they , like the migrations of the ancient Germans across the frontiers of the Roman Empire, become disruptive of ordinary life. Given that the bishops have a responsibility for their flocks, which include these aliens, they are right to worry that they may not be treated fairly. They themselves cannot discriminate because the Church literally knows no political boundaries. But in truth I would ask them to be more even handed in their concern and raise objections with the Mexican consulate that they ALSO be responsible and NOT encourage these people to think they have a right to be in this country. I have yet to hear that any bishop has done this.
 
The bishops rightly may raise moral objections since law ought to be founded on morality.
But the basic question here is beyond their competence, which is the division of power between the state and central government, and the state has taken great care to copy the federal statute. And one thing to remember: under our system, a a person is first of all
a citizen of Arizona and then a citizen of the United States. The record of his birth is a state document. His usual form of identification is a state driver’s license. His car is registered by the state. His place of residence is in the state. The school he attends is a state school. Most of the government officials he deals with are state and local officials. An illegal alien is literally an intruder into the state. The Federal government is obligated by the Constitution to prevent such intrusions. The state cannot be indifferent to such intrusions, especially when they reach such levels that they , like the migrations of the ancient Germans across the frontiers of the Roman Empire, become disruptive of ordinary life. Given that the bishops have a responsibility for their flocks, which include these aliens, they are right to worry that they may not be treated fairly. They themselves cannot discriminate because the Church literally knows no political boundaries. But in truth I would ask them to be more even handed in their concern and raise objections with the Mexican consulate that they ALSO be responsible and NOT encourage these people to think they have a right to be in this country. I have yet to hear that any bishop has done this.
This was all well-developed, but I’d like to particularly agree with the accuracy of this portion as central to the entire issue:
The bishops rightly may raise moral objections since law ought to be founded on morality.
But the basic question here is beyond their competence,
There’s no question that plenty of people, including religious functionaries, can become competent through thorough research, but it is extremely clear that to date that the bishops as a body have failed to join that group of experts. I know I am way more well-read on this topic, as are several CAF posters.

I also agree with the final points that Robby makes above in that there is most obviously no balance that is being communicated publicly by bishops, by which the term “social justice” is not just an excuse for the abandonment of justice.

Thank you, Robby. Good job.
 
This was all well-developed, but I’d like to particularly agree with the accuracy of this portion as central to the entire issue:

There’s no question that plenty of people, including religious functionaries, can become competent through thorough research, but it is extremely clear that to date that the bishops as a body have failed to join that group of experts. I know I am way more well-read on this topic, as are several CAF posters.

I also agree with the final points that Robby makes above in that there is most obviously no balance that is being communicated publicly by bishops, by which the term “social justice” is not just an excuse for the abandonment of justice.

Thank you, Robby. Good job.
Social Justice, the virtue, as practiced by the Bishops
is the same virtue of Social Justice that all Catholics MUST practice.
 
Yeah, well Catharina, when I hear the bishops speak and act with social justice, I’ll follow them. On this issue, the train has left the station without them long ago. There is very little credibility to most of their arguments, other than the excellent way Robby framed their basic role, a role I do agree with. They need to be a voice as a general principle, but in this case their voices as to the particular issues are under-informed and thus not with credible authority.
 
The bishops rightly may raise moral objections since law ought to be founded on morality.

But the basic question here is beyond their competence, which is the division of power between the state and central government,

The state cannot be indifferent to such intrusions, especially when they reach such levels that they , like the migrations of the ancient Germans across the frontiers of the Roman Empire, become disruptive of ordinary life. Given that the bishops have a responsibility for their flocks, which include these aliens, they are right to worry that they may not be treated fairly.

They themselves cannot discriminate because the Church literally knows no political boundaries. But in truth I would ask them to be more even handed in their concern and raise objections with the Mexican consulate that they ALSO be responsible and NOT encourage these people to think they have a right to be in this country. I have yet to hear that any bishop has done this.
We have to look at two points here. First, we must look at the bishop’s letter. They are not objecting to the entire package. They raise questions about two specific points, which are morally questionable. If the law were to correc those two points, the legislators would not hear from the bishops again. They’re not asking the legislators to allow crime to run rampant. They are not asking legislators to allow illegal immigration. They are asking for two very specific points.

The second point is that the bishops are not alone in this request. They were joined by several Jewish and Protestant leaders. This whole thread has been bashing the bishops But no one has mentioned or even provided copies of the other letters written by Jewish and Protestan leaders.

As I have said, we must always remember that when a bishop speaks on a moral point, he need not be an expert in political science. He is an expert in theology. That’s what he’s doing. He’s doing theology. If we, as Catholics, do not understand the theological point, we can ask before we attack or cirticize. The same statements that we make about the bishops not knowing anyting about politics or economics, they can make about us not knowing anything about theology. But what good does all this finger-pointing do for the soul?

We have to remember that the most important thing in our lives is our soul. The State cannot save our soul, a bishop can. We save our souls through our communion with the Church. We cannot achieve communion with the Church unless we’re in communion with the local bishops. If we cannot be in communion with the local bishops, we may as well leave the Catholic Church. Because there is no such thing as membership in the Catholic Church while bypassing the local bishop. Where there’s the bishop, there’s the Church. No bishop, no Church. They are more essential to the union between our soul and God, than is civil law. They certainly know more theology than a politician. Just because we don’t understand the theological principle, does not mean that there is not one present.

The only time that we can ignore that principle is if it’s in conflict with the Magisterium. No one here has proven that the bishop’s theological principle is in conflict with the Magisterium. In fact, on poster admitted that these statements reflect those of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, bu then the poster went on to say how wrong John Paul and Benedict are on these points. Well that’s what Catherine of Siena would call spiritual audacity.

While she was the first to call bishops and popes to task, she was also the great defender of the dignity of the bishops and popes. She dearly loved the Church and showed her love for the Church in her manner of speaking to the bishops and popes about their failings. She communicated to them her love for them and her subservience to them. Her articulation was very balanced.

Most of us would consider ourselves much more sophisticated than Catherine. She was illiterate, never learned to read and write. She didn’t even speak Italian propertly. But look at her wisdom and her common sense. She called them to task on their faults, but always made sure that she mentioned her love for them and her great reverence for their position in the Church. She made it a point to tell anyone who complained about the bishops and popes about their importance in their salvation.

Catherine should be a great example for laity in a time of crisis. She was a lay woman and lived in a time of crisis, worse than our own today. She and Franics of Assis were both lay people, both lived in crisis. Both had to deal with difficult bishops and popes. Both were very clear on one thing. If you’re Catholic, you need the bishops. A non-Catholic is in a different position, because he or she is saved through the mercy of God that reaches out from the Church beyond her physical boundaries. But if you’re Catholic, you’re dependent on the bishop for your salvation. Only a bishop can teach faith and morals, absolve from sin, consecrate the Eucharist and keep the priesthood going. If you’re a Catholic, you have no way of saving your sould without this.

For this reason, we cannot take on an antagonistic attitude toward our bishops. It only poisons our souls. We must make use of the systems that the Church has put in place for these questions. Finally, I know for a fact that the Mexican bishops are deal with the migration problem from the other side, trying to get Latin American governments to hep their people survive in their homeland so they do not have to leave. Everyone has a right to live in his homeland.

As a Franciscan, I’m more concerned about the salvation of our souls, than about being right. As St. Clare told our order, “You can be right and be condemned to hell by your hatred and anger.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Yeah, well Catharina, when I hear the bishops speak and act with social justice, I’ll follow them. On this issue, the train has left the station without them long ago. There is very little credibility to most of their arguments, other than the excellent way Robby framed their basic role, a role I do agree with. They need to be a voice as a general principle, but in this case their voices as to the particular issues are under-informed and thus not with credible authority.
Have you ever consdiered leaving the Catholic Church?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Yeah, well Catharina, when I hear the bishops speak and act with social justice, I’ll follow them. On this issue, the train has left the station without them long ago. There is very little credibility to most of their arguments, other than the excellent way Robby framed their basic role, a role I do agree with. They need to be a voice as a general principle, but in this case their voices as to the particular issues are under-informed and thus not with credible authority.
Yeah? Well, the last (most recent) time they spoke as one with force
was to reject the obamacare bill that will almost certainly be funding abortions
in the future - one way or another.

Did you approve of their spoken view at that time?

Do you reject all of the bishops’ teachings
or do you pick and choose as you like?
 
Because it is a hypocritical double-standard. .
No it is not. It is a realistic assessment of the costs involved to the poor working class American who must foot the bills caused by illegal aliens from the south. Are you going to pay for the hospitalisation and schooling of illegals or are you going to let others work their bottoms off to pay for it?
 
This statement alone screams racial profileling. I’m sorry.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
The obvious fact is that the drug related murders and killings of innocent people are not related to people coming from Canada. So I’m sorry too, when someone does not care one iota about the innocent people being killed by these drug cartels.
 
Our bishops need to admit the objective facts that half a million illegal immigrants are creating an AZ crime wave and destroying social services (read stealing from AZ’s taxpayers)…
What are the bishops doing about the crime wave? Do we not have a moral obligation to protect innocent women and children from criminal activites?
 
I appreciate your very thoughtful and well informed responses. OTOH I don’t think that nationality is the same as race. To say you do not want people from a particular country to come freely to the USA because of past experiences is not “racial” profiling but frankly makes a lot of sense given the lawlessness of some countries.

Let’s look at reality here. While the Canadian border may not require a fence or the kind of border guards needed on the Mexican border, it’s not because of skin color. It’s because the illegals crossing from Mexico (in the large sense not every individual) have created havoc with drugs, litter, social services and law enforcement. I don’t see the same results from Canadian or British citizens who come to America, legally or not.

Living in the NW quite honestly I have encountered numerous Canadians who have come to the US for work. Some legal, some not. OTOH they are not accompanied by drug cartels, guns, and pot.

I think it’s too easy to pull the race card out of the deck and not look at the hand we’ve been dealt 🙂

Lisa A
Right.
 
Let us always assume that there is something that we’re missing, until it is proven otherwise.
There is something seriously missing here and that is a recognition of the problems caused by the drug cartels and the costs to the hard working taxpayer of the criminal activity which has been increasing in AZ.
 
The Pope has never said, “lets load up all the worlds poor and take them to the USA.” He has clearly called on immigrants to adhere to other countries laws, including immigration laws…
Why should anyone disregard what the Pope has said on this?
 
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