Catholic Bishops against Arizona legislation

[JReducation]

You’ve brought in a number of points that are not necessarily related. But let me try to go through it as best I can. There is only one Church, not two, because there is only one apostolic traditon. Those who dissent from Church teaching are not the Church. They are individuals who are in trouble.

Second, the Catholic Church does not refer to illegal immigrants as criminals, because she does not consider illegal immirgation a crime. There are many things that governments call a crime that the Church does not and may things that governments call rights that the Church calls crimes. Catholic has a moral duty go let his conscience and language be guided by the Church, not the state.

The Church opposes all forms of crime that it defines as crimes: murder, rape, theft, violence, abortion, infanticide, euthanasia, invasion of another nation and so forth. As we know there are crimes, that are not sins.

The Church does not oppose any nation securing its borders. That’s a moral good. The Church does oppose turning a blind eye toward the poor. She does not oppose punishing those who intentionally harm others. That is justice. She does opposed doing harm to an entire group in order to get at a smaller group. That’s an injustice.

We will never get the Catholic Church to call illegal immirgration a crime for a number of reasons. First, it is biblical. From the OT to the NT we have seen illegal immigration for the sake of reaching safe haven. Mary and Joseph migrated to Egypt to protect Jesus. The early Christians and Jews mgirated to Europe for safety. Early Christianity was a crime, according to Roman law. But we know that Roman law was wrong.

Over the centuries the Church has helped millions of people get across borders, legally and illegally to protect them or to help them find a better life. We have seen this in the 20th century with the Jews in Europe. We moved thousands across borders. We forged documents, we disguised Jews as religious and clergy. We violated canon law and issued false baptism and ordination certificates. The sins are the action that people commmit, whether they are in a nation legally or illegally.

From Augustine forward, the Church has always taught that all people have rights. No nation can deny anyone human rights: health, food, housing, safety, family unity and religious freedom. Those rights are inviolable.

The USA and every nation is allowed to have immigration laws. But those laws must conform to the moral teachings of the Church. They cannot discriminate against the poor in favor of the rich. Catholics have always made preferential options for the poor.

Our system of immigration is flawed. When people go to an American Consulate to request a visa, they are asked for a bank account, proof that they have property and a job. If they fulfill those requirements, they walk out with a visa. Every terrorist that has entered our country has entered legally.

In the meantime, the poor who approach our embassies and consulates are denied visas or put on waiting lists that can take up to 20 years to get to them. The Church views this as an injustice.

The Church has also called on the USA and the other more prosperous nations of the world to invest wisely in foreign nations. We give aid to corrupt political leaders. We know that this aid is not going to reach the people who need it. Thus the situation that prompts people to leave their homeland continues to get worse, while the corrup get richer. The Church has often asked the governments of the world to give the money directly to those organizations who are in the trenches with the poor. This would relieve the situation and curb illegal emigration. Our country has failed to take sound advice.

Then there is the questionable use of funds in our country. We have invested millions of dollars in abortion in the USA and abroad, but have not done anything to improve the immigration system. That is not only an unwise use of resources, but an immoral use of resources. It is a sin against our own taxpayers and now we have a healthcare bill that charges the common citizen for abortions, money which could go to repairing a very broken immigration system.

Finally, after all the screaming and finger pointing in 2001-02 over the priests sex abuse scandal and overups that happened 20 or 30 years ago, our government just gave Planned Parenthood license to cover-up sex abuse. Planned Parenthood asked to be excused from reporting sexual abuse of minors, because many girls who go to their centers are minors who have been impregnated by legal adults. They argued that if they were obliged to ask and report the incidents the girls would not come in for healthcare (abortion). The government approved it and it flew under the radar of every pro-life lawyer in this country. Both the Federal Govt and the States have turned a blind eye to this, but they fund Planned Parenthood. However, they have no money to deal with immigration. This is immoral.

When 300,000 people show up at the March for life in Washington DC in 2010 and 25 million Catholics rise in protest to the bishop’s statement on three points in AZ’s law, the Chuch has to call into question the priorities of American Catholilcs. Where were these 25 million people when this current government was elected, in January during the pro-life marches around the country, when the Mexico City money as released for abortions, rather than help the poor abroad to reduce immmigration to the USA? Where were these 25 million Catholics when a healthcare bill containing free abortions became law?

Sins are wrong and have consequences. Immigration is not a sin. What immigrants do or what is done to them is a sin. Let’s focus on the sin itself. Law the legalizes sin and criminalizes what is not a sin, cannot be protected by the Church’s teachings.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[pnewton]

I said ‘2 Churches’ because that is what I and millions of Catholics every day opine.

You are the first to opine this opinion that I have heard.

On the one hand we have churches/priests who preach that Holy Communion is not the real Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Savior Jesus Christ. They also preach that abortion is not intrinsically evil but a ‘private matter’ for a woman to decide. My trad Latin Rite Church teaches the Magisterium. Those churches are bursting at the seams, because the Faithful want the real Church, not a watered-down false one.

I have never, not once heard any priest preach this. I challenge you to find one parish of diocesan website (in communion with Rome), much less half, that teach this. I think you throw the word “false” around a little too much.

In closing, Brother wrongly refers to illegals as ‘immigrants’.

This is easy.
dictionary.reference.com/browse/immigrant
im·mi·grant

person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.
No that this definition does not designate a difference between legal or illegal. I think everyone (with the exception of you) recognizes that the usage was English and not a specific legal term.

 

[catharina]

I’ve no idea where kathykounselor might practice law, but if it’s in the United States,
then I’d be STUNNED to learn that the use of the word “illegals” (to decribe immigrants
who are in the USA without proper documentation) is allowed/accepted/tolerated
by any court. If that term is accepted, I’d like to know about those courts:
THE what, where, when, how, why, etc…

 

[bluelake]

Can anybody explain why the bishops are against this measure? The only point that I can think of is the tearing apart of families, but why can immigration officials not deport entire families?

Is a layperson sinning when they disagree with the bishops’ stance on illegal immigration?

Best,
fish90

catholicnewsagency.com/news/religious_leaders_urge_arizona_governor_to_veto_anti-immigrant_bill/

This problem isn’t about employment, its about voting for Obama!
he wants their vote.So He is making it easy for them.
I hope all these aliens are American citizens when they do vote.
My mother was born in Finland. She couldn’t vote because she didn’t apply for her citizenship.
She finally had to when she was a senior citizen. She wanted to receive her Social Sercurity
check… She also had to pass a citizenship test. She was two years old when her family came to America.
Have the laws changed? I know a person is asked where they were born. and also are asked for proof of who they are.

bluelake

 

[JReducation]

The questions are very simple.

1. Where were these moralists when the healthcare bill was being debated? Did speak out as forcefully in defense of life?
2. Where were the 25 million Catholics and others on January 22 when there were pro-life marches all over the country? Or is human life sacred only when it touches my property and my security? Which means that only my life is sacred.
3. Where were all these Catholic lawyers when Planned Parenthood gets a free pass not to report child sexual abuse so that pregnant minors can get an abortion?
4. Where are all of these Catholic lawyers when states like FL give judicial bypasses to minors to get abortions, even though the law says that the parent must be informed and when these minors are represented by lawyers from Planned Parenthood?
5. Where are our Catholic lawyers when Catholic pregnancy centers have to report every case of a minor impregnated by an adult, while we try to save the unborn, but an abortion clinic does not have to file the report?
6. When did the Church say that nations may not have secure borders?
7. When did the Church say that violence against people and their property is morally correct?
8. Why can’t our government fixed a broken immigration system, but has money to pay for abortions abroad and in our country and to fund embryonic sem cell research?
9. Why does out country take our tax dollars and give them to corrupt politicians in other countries as foreign aid, knowing that the money will never reach the people who need it, but denies the requests for funding from organizations such as Pax Caritas Inernational, Catholic Charities International, Habitat for Humanity and other organizations that would help the poor live more comfortably in their own countries and not seek to immigrate to the US?
10. Why do our Catholics pay closer attention to what legislators, politicians and lawyers say as if it were moral dogma? Since when did this group start to write morality? If we want to learn how to do politics morally, we should read and study men like Thomas More, a statesman and a lawyer who never uttered a single negative word against his pope or kind. In fact his last words were, “I die a faithful son of the Church and a loyal subject of my king.” Thomas could have said many negative things about both king and pope. But he opeted for the virute of discretion. We will never know what he may have said to them behind closed doors.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

This problem isn’t about employment, its about voting for Obama!
he wants their vote.So He is making it easy for them.
I hope all these aliens are American citizens when they do vote.
My mother was born in Finland. She couldn’t vote because she didn’t apply for her citizenship.
She finally had to when she was a senior citizen. She wanted to receive her Social Sercurity
check… She also had to pass a citizenship test. She was two years old when her family came to America.
Have the laws changed? I know a person is asked where they were born. and also are asked for proof of who they are.

bluelake

The timelines in the laws have changed. You still have to take a test to be a naturalized citizen. I believe that some of the rules like marriage have changed. If I’m not mistaken, once upon a time you could become a citizens immediately if you married an American citizens. That’s not the case now. Then you could become a permanent resident immdiately and I beleive that may have changed too.

I don’t deal in that area so I don’t keep track. I deal with religious and the immigration laws that apply to religious are very different. We can transfer our religious from any country in the world to the USA without delay. The major superior sends a letter of assignment, which is presented to the US consulate and he visa is granted. We usually encourage our religious to become citizens of Vatican City. It’s much easier to move around.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Darryl1958]

My position is the other way around. Catholics have allowed this country to fail. If we are truly interested in abolishing evil, let’s do it right. Forget what the law says is legal or not legal, because the law can be very immoral, as you have correclty pointed out. We led the world into legalized abortion and now we’re following the UK, Canada and other nations toward same-sex marriage.

As Catholics we have to be grounded in moral law, before we can be grounded in civil law. Civil law is telling us that illegal immirgration is a crime and legislators are using the crimes of the few to push their argument. The moral Catholic position is to look at all evil, denounce all evil, including those evils that come into our country through the southern border.

We Catholics have to take a tougher position with legilators and demand that they secure the borders at both end and filter who arrives by boat, plane or any other means. Because if we exclude the Mexicans, poor and criminal alike, but welcome the abortionist and the gay agenda with open arms, then we’re being inconsistent in our application of moral law.

The Church is not opposed to tough immigration laws. The Church is for tough laws against all kinds of evil. This is the role of all Catholics who vote in any country, to inform and demand from their government that evil be condemned and that it not be allowed into the country, be it the USA or any other.

…

What some people in our government want to do is to close off the Mexican border, because of the economic and criminal problems that our horrible immigration policies pose. But the same people who are sounding off on the economic and criminal problems causes by illegal immigration are the ones who allowed terrorists to enter the USA legally, because they had money in the bank. If you approach any American embassy in the world and you prove that you have money to spend, you can get a visa to enter the USA. I know this for a fact, because I grew up the son of a diplomat who als served as an ambassador. I saw how the embassies work.

Here is what is happening now. They want to close off the Mexican door, because of crime and economic problems. This is not a bad idea, if it done properly. But they are saying nothing about continuing the open door policy to Canadians and Brits without visas. When the Church looks at this, she has to denounce the injustice, because a nation that kills its unborn is guilty of far greater crimes against humanity than one that sells drugs. Since we should always strive for the greater good, we must challenge the government to filter out as much evil as possible, from every port, not just the south.

The concern is not about allowing in drug dealings from the south. It’s about allowing in every kind of criminal, from north and south. This is what Catholics need to say to government. These things are all crimes and we don’t want them in our country. How are we going to clean up the moral mess in our country, if we continue to welcome immorality?
…

Let’s not just fight against drugs and street gangsters, while we forget the most serious and dangerous criminal of all, the abortionist. Catholics have a moral duty to demand that the government address all of the evil that it allows to enter our country. The argument that abortion and homosexuality are legal in the USA is not morally justifiable. Because the law that makes them legal is an immoral law. Therefore, it is not binding on Catholics. We do not have to view these things as having a right to exist in our country, just because someone says that it is legal. We have an obligation to demand that our government clean up the country from border to border.

I hope this clarifies what I’m trying to say here. This is a matter of implementing the Gospel of Life. All life is sacred from conception to natural death. It’s not just the life that is lost in a street shoot-out that is sacred.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

In terms of the Arizona law, I think it would be unfair to say that what people want to do is close off the border. what the majority of Arizonians want, and most likely what the majority of americans of all kinds want, is a secure border.

True enough about rich terrorists being allowed in. The small attempts to fix that after 9/11 were all but drowned out by screams against profiling.

Certainly many of us at CA are fighting to make people see that abortion is a crime. The protests against Notre Dame opening its doors to honoring abortion support Obama is ample proof that even Catholics are not going to be given any wiggle room on the topic. Many would have been happy to string Jenkins up by his toes over the matter, no disrepsect ot the office of preist of course.

Then again, abortion is not a crime in America, so it is hard to rail against letting abortion supporters into a country when the practice is already fully accepted in America.

As for visas from Canada and Britian, that seems to be a little bit of a red herring. Canadians by and large come to US to buy eggs and shop. There is not so much the chance that they will be staying illegally. Closing the borders to Canadians abortionists just to appear impartial is really pulling at straws.
It is not a question of impeding the free flow of goods and people, but is to deal with the pressing problems at hand. The problems of the state of Washington along the northern border are just not the same as what is happening in Arizona.

 

[livnlern]

How about making sure that my poor American neighbor down the street, also trying to feed a hungry family, could find work? Or don’t Americans count?

Americans will do a lot of the so-called “immigrant” jobs to take care of their families. I know…I work with a lot of other Americans doing exactly that. So please, let’s not make the assumption that only illegal immigrants, many of whom leave jobs in their own country, are the only ones who deserve consideration and compassion. Or that Americans do not have the right to protect their own society, culture, and nation.

Melvin

Americans, like the Catholic church, and white men, are all examples of acceptable prejudices if you follow the mass media.

 

[sidbrown]

As for visas from Canada and Britian, that seems to be a little bit of a red herring. Canadians by and large come to US to buy eggs and shop. There is not so much the chance that they will be staying illegally. Closing the borders to Canadians abortionists just to appear impartial is really pulling at straws.
It is not a question of impeding the free flow of goods and people, but is to deal with the pressing problems at hand. The problems of the state of Washington along the northern border are just not the same as what is happening in Arizona.

Of course it is a red herring.
Firsst of all, there are almost one million abortions per year being performed in Mexico.
Secondly, Canada says it will refuse to fund abortions according to the G8 plan. Do we hear of any Catholic leader calling for restrictive visas for people from France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia and the United Kingdom to enter the USA, since they are in G8 countries which favor of funding abortions according to the G8 plan?
theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-refuses-to-fund-abortion-in-g8-plan/article1547671/

 

[tpw]

You know there are enough Catholics in the U.S. for ALL of us to commit to working with the bishops on a whole array of issues. Those who want to commit to working on the abortion issue should do so with the prayerful support and encouragement of those who are working on other issues.

Those who are working with the bishop’s on other issues besides abortion should not be subjected to the scorn, allegations, suspicions, etc. that come from those committed to working on abortion.

And I’ll be honest - I get really tired of accusations from Catholic conservatives that the only issue is abortion. I recognize the seriousness of the issue. I’ve also been very supportive of abortion-related education in schools and parishes. The great tragedy is - when I’ve bought in consevative pro-lifers, they’ve disgraced themselves in the classroom and by extension the entire abortion issue with outlandish claims and statements. One even claimed “Satan was in the classroom” - Good Lord, it’s hard enough to get kids to think clearly about these issues without having someone throwing out craziness like this.

The problem on both the parts of Catholic conservatives and liberals is that very few really reads or studies closely what the bishops/popes teach. Furthermore, conservatives tend to spin episcopal statements to their perspective while liberals do the same.

Conservatives eat up FOX News and some of the craziness from EWTN and scream vitriol when they hear Catholic social teaching and begin screaming “communism, socialism or other outlandish things” simply because they focus all their energy on abortion and feel (I suspect) that the Church is betraying them by taking positions that they read as “liberal”.

We don’t fit comfortably in either camp…

 

[gakroeger]

You know there are enough Catholics in the U.S. for ALL of us to commit to working with the bishops on a whole array of issues. Those who want to commit to working on the abortion issue should do so with the prayerful support and encouragement of those who are working on other issues.

Those who are working with the bishop’s on other issues besides abortion should not be subjected to the scorn, allegations, suspicions, etc. that come from those committed to working on abortion.

And I’ll be honest - I get really tired of accusations from Catholic conservatives that the only issue is abortion. I recognize the seriousness of the issue. I’ve also been very supportive of abortion-related education in schools and parishes. The great tragedy is - when I’ve bought in consevative pro-lifers, they’ve disgraced themselves in the classroom and by extension the entire abortion issue with outlandish claims and statements. One even claimed “Satan was in the classroom” - Good Lord, it’s hard enough to get kids to think clearly about these issues without having someone throwing out craziness like this.

The problem on both the parts of Catholic conservatives and liberals is that very few really reads or studies closely what the bishops/popes teach. Furthermore, conservatives tend to spin episcopal statements to their perspective while liberals do the same.

Conservatives eat up FOX News and some of the craziness from EWTN and scream vitriol when they hear Catholic social teaching and begin screaming “communism, socialism or other outlandish things” simply because they focus all their energy on abortion and feel (I suspect) that the Church is betraying them by taking positions that they read as “liberal”.

We don’t fit comfortably in either camp…

It must be nice living in La La Land…

 

[sidbrown]

You know there are enough Catholics in the U.S. for ALL of us to commit to working with the bishops on a whole array of issues. Those who want to commit to working on the abortion issue should do so with the prayerful support and encouragement of those who are working on other issues.

Those who are working with the bishop’s on other issues besides abortion should not be subjected to the scorn, allegations, suspicions, etc. that come from those committed to working on abortion.

And I’ll be honest - I get really tired of accusations from Catholic conservatives that the only issue is abortion. I recognize the seriousness of the issue. I’ve also been very supportive of abortion-related education in schools and parishes. The great tragedy is - when I’ve bought in consevative pro-lifers, they’ve disgraced themselves in the classroom and by extension the entire abortion issue with outlandish claims and statements. One even claimed “Satan was in the classroom” - Good Lord, it’s hard enough to get kids to think clearly about these issues without having someone throwing out craziness like this.

The problem on both the parts of Catholic conservatives and liberals is that very few really reads or studies closely what the bishops/popes teach. Furthermore, conservatives tend to spin episcopal statements to their perspective while liberals do the same.

Conservatives eat up FOX News and some of the craziness from EWTN and scream vitriol when they hear Catholic social teaching and begin screaming “communism, socialism or other outlandish things” simply because they focus all their energy on abortion and feel (I suspect) that the Church is betraying them by taking positions that they read as “liberal”.

We don’t fit comfortably in either camp…

I agree with most of what you say here.
I don;t see the point of bringing up Canada’s laws on abortion when the thread is supposed to be discussing Arizona’s immigration laws.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Church does not oppose any nation securing its borders. That’s a moral good. The Church does oppose turning a blind eye toward the poor.

Our system of immigration is flawed.

The Church has also called on the USA and the other more prosperous nations of the world to invest wisely in foreign nations. We give aid to corrupt political leaders.

Then there is the questionable use of funds in our country. We have invested millions of dollars in abortion in the USA and abroad, but have not done anything to improve the immigration system. That is not only an unwise use of resources, but an immoral use of resources. It is a sin against our own taxpayers and now we have a healthcare bill that charges the common citizen for abortions, money which could go to repairing a very broken immigration system.

Lots of points in your posts, and I only have time to speak to a few.

#1. “The poor” is a relative concept, and the consequences of wanting to aid “the poor” have to be weighed in that scale. A person who is able to support himself decently by Mexican standards is not “poor” in Mexico, though his condition there might be considered “poor” in the U.S. In advocating for illegals, we are not always advocating for “the poor”. Often, we are advocating for the “young and assertive who want to get ahead of their neighbors” where they came from. We should not romanticize them the way some of us do.

#2. Agreed. It is presently skewed economically, but also politically and ethnically. Presently, it massively, massively favors Hispanics from south of our border over all others, tacitly. The next most favored are the highly skilled. If you want a better chance in life and you’re Russian, it’s terribly difficult to get here and get a work permit. If you’re from south of the border, it’s a lot easier to work here if you walk across and ignore the laws. If you’re Haitian, you have to sail here in a leaky boat and hope you don’t sink or land in Cuba by mistake. I’m not saying I oppose the de facto “Hispanic preference” this country has had for years, but when we talk about aiding the world’s poor by immigration policies, the Hispanic preference ain’t it. Many, many, many are the peoples in the world who are worse off than Mexicans, Salvadorans or Guatemalans. Actually, if we wanted to aid the poor among them, we would have a preference for the Guatemalans over Mexicans, because Guatemala is a lot poorer. But that’s not the reality of the situation.

#3. It’s hard to invest in many countries “wisely”. It’s hard to invest in Mexico, as a practical matter, because Mexico won’t allow foreigners to own the majority interest in anything. Even if you put up 100% of the money, you have to take on (usually politically favored) Mexican “partners” who own more of your investment than you do. It’s too bad for places like Mexico, too, because foreign money is often the cornerstone of economic development. All it does is benefit people like Carlos Slim, now the indisputably richest man in the world. The Brits still own more American assets than all other nationalities put together. But for British investment, the U.S. would never have boomed as it did in the 19th and early 20th centuries. And as to giving money to corrupt political leaders, it’s almost impossible not to do that when dictators control those countries. Most poor countries are ruled by dictators.

#4. I agree, but I will also add that the Social Encyclicals enjoin nations to first ensure decent support for the needy who can’t help themselves. Nobody fits that description in the U.S. more than people who subsist on SSI. That’s about $600/month; very much a “poverty wage”. On the other hand, the healthcare bill will subsidize people making up to $88,000/year. So, while we could certainly be more generous to the poor of other nations, the direction we are going is 180 degrees wrong; that of middle class people voting benefits for themselves.

 

[Elizabeth502]

All great points, Ridgerunner. All accurate. I was referring to these tangentially and generally in some of my other posts, but you have concretized them all. Theology-in-the-world must always proceed from two directions – downward, from the absolutes in moral theology, and upward, from the real world situations which modify the application of that theology relative to just and unjust, truth and untruth, need and greater need, true poverty and relative poverty.

It is useless to base contemporary practical theology on situations which no longer exist, or which do not yet exist, or which are in conflict with overriding situations and priority mandates in the moral sphere. Theologians who want to be taken seriously and widely need to situate themselves in the 21st century, with changed global economic and social realities in mind. At the moment, most of them who have made public statements are clearly not in touch with these realities. There may be plenty more of them with more updated views, but unfortunately few of them have spoken out. Here’s their chance to exercise real vision and leadership.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

This problem isn’t about employment, its about voting for Obama!
he wants their vote.So He is making it easy for them.
I hope all these aliens are American citizens when they do vote.
My mother was born in Finland. She couldn’t vote because she didn’t apply for her citizenship.
She finally had to when she was a senior citizen. She wanted to receive her Social Sercurity
check… She also had to pass a citizenship test. She was two years old when her family came to America.
Have the laws changed? I know a person is asked where they were born. and also are asked for proof of who they are.

bluelake

My Mom has lived in the US legally for more than 45 years, yet she is not a citizen…but a legal resident. She worked and is able to receive Social Security, with no problems.

As a legal resident, she can do most of the same things a citizen can, except vote. She can become a citizen by passing the test. She hasn’t done that.

 

[fish90]

And I’ll be honest - I get really tired of accusations from Catholic conservatives that the only issue is abortion. I recognize the seriousness of the issue. I’ve also been very supportive of abortion-related education in schools and parishes. The great tragedy is - when I’ve bought in consevative pro-lifers, they’ve disgraced themselves in the classroom and by extension the entire abortion issue with outlandish claims and statements. One even claimed “Satan was in the classroom” - Good Lord, it’s hard enough to get kids to think clearly about these issues without having someone throwing out craziness like this.

The problem on both the parts of Catholic conservatives and liberals is that very few really reads or studies closely what the bishops/popes teach. Furthermore, conservatives tend to spin episcopal statements to their perspective while liberals do the same.

Conservatives eat up FOX News and some of the craziness from EWTN and scream vitriol when they hear Catholic social teaching and begin screaming “communism, socialism or other outlandish things” simply because they focus all their energy on abortion and feel (I suspect) that the Church is betraying them by taking positions that they read as “liberal”.

We don’t fit comfortably in either camp…

What’s all this for?

 

[Ridgerunner]

All great points, Ridgerunner. All accurate. I was referring to these tangentially and generally in some of my other posts, but you have concretized them all. Theology-in-the-world must always proceed from two directions – downward, from the absolutes in moral theology, and upward, from the real world situations which modify the application of that theology relative to just and unjust, truth and untruth, need and greater need, true poverty and relative poverty.

It is useless to base contemporary practical theology on situations which no longer exist, or which do not yet exist, or which are in conflict with overriding situations and priority mandates in the moral sphere. Theologians who want to be taken seriously and widely need to situate themselves in the 21st century, with changed global economic and social realities in mind. At the moment, most of them who have made public statements are clearly not in touch with these realities. There may be plenty more of them with more updated views, but unfortunately few of them have spoken out. Here’s their chance to exercise real vision and leadership.

What I might think is not the topic here. But this is a situation that really does (I think) call on us to make moral decisions. I’m not a theologian by any stretch. But I’ll say this. Again, I think the bishops, in their letter, are really only expressing “concern”. They’re not telling us what particular political stand we ought to take. So I feel free to speak.

But while I can only speak about my own experiences, I am absolutely persuaded that what’s going on right now in the immigration debate is not really quite right. As an economic matter, I believe we need immigrants; lots of them. This country is, in my opinion, underpopulated and will become more so, given that the native-born birth rate is below replacement rate. People, not empty space or unused resources, create wealth and well-being.

But it’s not an even-handed thing. By way of example of something that gets to me, my wife, an RN, teaches med techs on behalf of an agency that supports retarded people. Lots of them are foreigners; particularly Africans and Caribbean Islanders. The latter, she reports to me, are the absolutely kindest, most decent of all her students. She asks them to stay in this country, but almost none do. Most of them are students at a local university and a local tech school to become LPNs or med techs. That’s all they can afford.They take care of retarded people for my wife’s agency employer to pay their own way. They will, upon their return to their own countries, become the de facto “doctors” there, because a lot of those countries have almost no medical care of any kind. They don’t make much even so, over there, but they have towns and villages and rural areas to which they want to return, to serve their own people. Wonderful folks. I can’t help thinking some who are not medically inclined from those countries ought to have a good claim on being invited here. But there is zero chance of it being successful.

For a time in my life I worked with Filipinos, mostly medical people, getting them visas and certifications and all. I had considerable occasion to talk to them about life there and about why they wanted to be here. I might be gullible, but I guess if I had my way, Filipinos and Filipinas of almost any skill or none, would have a strong claim to invitation. If nothing else, they were once our colony and fought with us in WWII,and their official language, interestingly enough, is English because of us. They love America, and just want to be here if they can. They’ll tell you Chinese and Japanese organizations own everything in their country, and they love America because they “get a chance” here; a chance they don’t get in their own country.

I have known a few Russian immigrants, and know about the struggles they have in getting here and the greater struggle they have getting work permits. Every last one of them wants to stay here. Their children become instant Americans, and they all want that. Most of them are unskilled laborers. Ukrainians too. I met two who got irradiated at Chernobyl and who just pray to get their children raised before some deadly illness shows up, and one who I know in my heart got poisoned somehow (lead pipes maybe?) working in a power plant in Kiev. But he keeps chugging along. I had occasion to talk to some of the “underground” importers of illegal Poles in Chicago, because back in my “visa days”, I had some hope of getting some of their medically trained people certified. Couldn’t be done, though, because their medical education then was so substandard. I talked to one of their English teachers; a Pole who had been here a couple of years. I commented on her excellent English, and she informed me that it takes her “students” only 18 months to learn the language well enough to function in English here. I don’t know why that is, but I’m sure caring to do it is a big factor. They never go back if they get the chance to stay here, but it’s hard to get work permits for Poles.

(continued)

 

[Ridgerunner]

(continued)

And I have to ask myself, again, about the “Hispanic preference”. Don’t misunderstand. I think we need people where we can get them as long as they’re not criminals or terrorists or something. But one would have to be blind not to see that all this opposition to the Az law (not including the bishops, I’m sure) is really a Hispanic thing, encouraged by politicos who think they have something to gain by affiliation with a particular group. The political people in this country don’t give a hoot about Nigerians or Haitians or Filipinos or Russians or Ukrainians, and these protests are not about them. I’m not sure it’s even quite a Hispanic thing. It’s largely a Mexican thing; a “La Raza” thing. You don’t even have to ask a Guatemalan (the lowest people in the Hispanic pecking order other than Black Hispanics, being “Indio” and often not even speaking Spanish). Ask a Mayan from Yucatan how he rates in his own country and among people of “The Race” here. It will open your eyes. It’s not all sweetness and light in the “pro-immigration” movement.

I hate to see what’s going on with “immigration reform”, because I know it won’t be even-handed, and I know it won’t be aimed at “the world’s poor”.

My parents sponsored a family of Polish people they didn’t know, after WWII. My wife and I feel we did our part more recently, but then, the right hand isn’t supposed to know what the left is doing, right? So let that be explanation enough.

Sorry this was so long.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Filipinos and Filipinas of almost any skill or none, would have a strong claim to invitation.

You are so correct. Talk about a country of grinding poverty!