Catholic bishops call for united Easter holiday across churches

[Vico]

If the Catholic bishops really want a united Easter holiday for all Christians, why don’t they simply accept the Orthodox method of dating Easter and all Christians could go with that?

The Orthodox are not united on how to calculate it either. "… even after the Council of Nicaea, differences in the date of Easter remained, since the Council had said nothing about the methods to be used to calculate the timing of the full moon or the vernal equinox. "

oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/wcc-commissions/faith-and-order-commission/i-unity-the-church-and-its-mission/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-date-of-easter.html

smart.net/~mmontes/ortheast.html

 

[Hokomai]

How about a fixed date?

 

[Vico]

How about a fixed date?

Since it is always a Sunday a fixed date does not work.

 

[Hokomai]

Since it is always a Sunday a fixed date does not work.

Dang

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Jharek,

Even after the incident with Pope St. Victor, when the Churches agreed that different Easter dates should not break communion, the debate between the two sides continued. A cleric from the See of Alexandria (who held to the same date as the Church of Rome) in the late 3rd century (I forget his name offhand) records that the Asians were still engaged in polemics over the issue.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[hazcompat]

Come Holy Spirit

Come Creator Spirit, visit the souls of Thy people, fill with grace from on high the hearts which Thou hast created. Thou Who art called the Comforter, gift of the most high God, living fountain, fire, love and unction of souls. Sevenfold in Thy gifts, finger of the Father’s right hand, Thou promised truly by the Father, giving speech to tongues. Inflame our senses with Thy light, pour Thy love into our hearts, strengthen our weak bodies with lasting power. . Drive far away the enemy, grant peace at all times: so under Thy guidance may we avoid all evil. Grant us by Thee to know the Father and to know the Son, and Thee, Spirit of both, may we always believe. To God the Father be glory, to the Son Who rose from the dead and to the Comforter, for all ages.

Amen.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Of course Rome wants us to give up the Patristic Calendar. Guess they don’t realize that our canons forbid it. Then again so do some orthodox. It will NEVER happen.

How exactly did a man-made calendar become so holy and inviolable?

By the way, Rome does not want you to give up your ecclesiastical calendar. But it would be nice if the math on which it’s based - which is a secular matter - were not so astronomically flawed. Or do you really think erroneous astronomical math is somehow sacred to God?

This is the reason why the Catholic bishops should simply accept the Orthodox date for Easter, and that would settle the issue of being united with one date for Easter.

That could work. I personally still don’t understand why we can’t all have Easter on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox - the real vernal equinox. Whoever has to adjust their calendars - whether east or west - to make that happen should just do so.

The Orthodox are not united on how to calculate it either. "… even after the Council of Nicaea, differences in the date of Easter remained, since the Council had said nothing about the methods to be used to calculate the timing of the full moon or the vernal equinox. "

oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/wcc-commissions/faith-and-order-commission/i-unity-the-church-and-its-mission/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-date-of-easter.html

smart.net/~mmontes/ortheast.html

Precisely. OrthodoxJosh, what do you make of that?

Frankly, I’ve never found this religious devotion to a man-made calendar to be rationally or theologically viable.

The fact is, both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are in full conformity with what Nicaea decided: that Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.

Religiously-based passion over the science of the lunar cycle is ridiculous.

 

[marlo]

very good point, something the Orthodox should think about

How exactly did a man-made calendar become so holy and inviolable?

By the way, Rome does not want you to give up your ecclesiastical calendar. But it would be nice if the math on which it’s based - which is a secular matter - were not so astronomically flawed. Or do you really think erroneous astronomical math is somehow sacred to God?

That could work. I personally still don’t understand why we can’t all have Easter on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox - the real vernal equinox. Whoever has to adjust their calendars - whether east or west - to make that happen should just do so.

Precisely. OrthodoxJosh, what do you make of that?

Frankly, I’ve never found this religious devotion to a man-made calendar to be rationally or theologically viable.

The fact is, both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are in full conformity with what Nicaea decided: that Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.

Religiously-based passion over the science of the lunar cycle is ridiculous.

 

[friendster324]

Since it is always a Sunday a fixed date does not work.

I think a fixed day (not date), like the 2nd Sunday in April, could work.

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

I think a fixed day (not date), like the 2nd Sunday in April, could work.

Not without violating the canons of Nicaea. While Roman Catholics tend to have lower view of the canons and don’t really care as much about contradicting them, the Orthodox at least superficially try to be faithful to the canons.

 

[Vico]

…
why we can’t all have Easter on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox - the real vernal equinox. …

There are three issues:
At what city is the determination of the full Moon made.
By which methods of observation (or calculation, e.g. Metonic 19 year cycle) is the determination of the full Moon made.
Which calendar will be used to determine Sunday.
The early idea was to tie Pascha to the Jewish, but to be after it, but to have one common date. Passover determination rules have changed over time.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I think a fixed day (not date), like the 2nd Sunday in April, could work.

That could work.

If everyone were willing to compromise that much, I think a better proposal - which would remain in line with what the bishops of Nicaea I decided - would be to totally scrap the canonical notion of an ecclesiastical vernal equinox: actually make Easter the first Sunday after the first full moon after the real vernal equinox, the astronomical one.

Fact is, day overtakes night only once in early spring, no matter what date our calendar systems assign to that twenty-four hour period. So take the real astronomical equinox, find the first full moon after that, and then how about everyone celebrates Easter on the Sunday after that.

Not without violating the canons of Nicaea. While Roman Catholics tend to have lower view of the canons and don’t really care as much about contradicting them, the Orthodox at least superficially try to be faithful to the canons.

Would the idea I just proposed - calculate Easter using the astronomical spring equinox rather than some particular calendar’s arbitrarily-chosen spring equinox - violate the canons of Nicaea?

There are three issues:

Okay, I did some reading. Let me know if there are still issues to work through after I give these answers:

At what city is the determination of the full Moon made.

Jerusalem, let’s say.

By which methods of observation (or calculation, e.g. Metonic 19 year cycle) is the determination of the full Moon made.

Again, use the astronomical full moon specifically. Over the meridian of Jerusalem.

Which calendar will be used to determine Sunday.

Darn! That differs between calendars, too? I guess that makes sense… unless they skipped a number of days that was a multiple of seven when they first implemented the Gregorian reform in the late sixteenth century…

Okay, this is harder than I thought. My answers from above I got from a proposal by the World Council of Churches, but I guess they left the day-of-the-week problem unresolved.

Any ideas, Vico? I really liked that World Council of Churches proposal to use astronomical calculations for the equinox and the moon, and use Jerusalem for the full moon calculation, but what about determining Sunday?

 

[louis91766]

Its time for another Ecumenical Council.

I don;t see why things have to be so complicated. Actually, it is all very easy to accomplish. Why could not the Catholic bishops simply agree to have Easter on the following dates (in the Gregorian calendar) which would then coincide with the days on which the Orthodox celebrate Easter?
2012 4/15
2013 5/5 2014 4/20 2015 4/12
2016 5/1 2017 4/16 2018 4/8
2019 4/28 2020 4/19 2021 5/2
2022 4/24 2023 4/16 2024 5/5
2025 4/20 2026 4/12 2027 5/2
2028 4/16 2029 4/8 2030 4/28
2031 4/13 2032 5/2 2033 4/24
2034 4/9 2035 4/29 2036 4/20
2037 4/5 2038 4/25 2039 4/17
2040 5/6 2041 4/21 2042 4/13
2043 5/3 2044 4/24 2045 4/9
2046 4/29 2047 4/21 2048 4/5
2049 4/25 2050 4/17 2051 5/7
2052 4/21 2053 4/13 2054 5/3
2055 4/18 2056 4/9 2057 4/29
2058 4/14 2059 5/4 2060 4/25
2061 4/10 2062 4/30 2063 4/22
2064 4/13 2065 4/26 2066 4/18
2067 4/10 2068 4/29 2069 4/14
2070 5/4 2071 4/19 2072 4/10
2073 4/30 2074 4/22 2075 4/7
2076 4/26 2077 4/18 2078 5/8
2079 4/23 2080 4/14 2081 5/4
2082 4/19 2083 4/11 2084 4/30
2085 4/15 2086 4/7 2087 4/27
2088 4/18 2089 5/1 2090 4/23
2091 4/8 2092 4/27 2093 4/19
2094 4/11 2095 4/24 2096 4/15
2097 5/5 2098 4/27 2099 4/12
2100 5/2 2101 4/24 2102 4/9
2103 4/29 2104 4/20 2105 4/5
2106 4/25 2107 4/17 2108 5/6
2109 4/21 2110 4/13 2111 5/3
2112 4/17 2113 4/9 2114 4/29
2115 4/14 2116 5/3 2117 4/25
2118 4/17 2119 4/30 2120 4/21
2121 4/13 2122 5/3 2123 4/18
2124 4/9

 

[Vico]

That could work.

If everyone were willing to compromise that much, I think a better proposal - which would remain in line with what the bishops of Nicaea I decided - would be to totally scrap the canonical notion of an ecclesiastical vernal equinox: actually make Easter the first Sunday after the first full moon after the real vernal equinox, the astronomical one.

Fact is, day overtakes night only once in early spring, no matter what date our calendar systems assign to that twenty-four hour period. So take the real astronomical equinox, find the first full moon after that, and then how about everyone celebrates Easter on the Sunday after that.

diagnosis2012.co.uk/conv.htm

gmarts.org/index.php?go=414

Would the idea I just proposed - calculate Easter using the astronomical spring equinox rather than some particular calendar’s arbitrarily-chosen spring equinox - violate the canons of Nicaea?

Okay, I did some reading. Let me know if there are still issues to work through after I give these answers:

Jerusalem, let’s say.

Again, use the astronomical full moon specifically. Over the meridian of Jerusalem.

Darn! That differs between calendars, too? I guess that makes sense… unless they skipped a number of days that was a multiple of seven when they first implemented the Gregorian reform in the late sixteenth century…

Okay, this is harder than I thought. My answers from above I got from a proposal by the World Council of Churches, but I guess they left the day-of-the-week problem unresolved.

Any ideas, Vico? I really liked that World Council of Churches proposal to use astronomical calculations for the equinox and the moon, and use Jerusalem for the full moon calculation, but what about determining Sunday?

The Gregorian Calendar Pascha does not always meet the criteria of being after Jewish Passover. The Jews use a lunar cycle calendar and it has periodic corrections of a intercalary month. My vote is for the Old Calendar (Julian) Pascha. Note that the simplified first Sunday in April would not work due to the Jewish intercalary month.

2008:
March 23rd = Gregorian Calendar Pascha
April 20th = Jewish Passover
April 27th = Julian Calendar Pascha

2012:
April 7th = Jewish Passover
April 8th = Gregorian Calendar Pascha
April 15th = Julian Calendar Pascha

 

[friendster324]

Not without violating the canons of Nicaea. While Roman Catholics tend to have lower view of the canons and don’t really care as much about contradicting them, the Orthodox at least superficially try to be faithful to the canons.

I was unaware of the canons of the council in which this issue was discussed. After some research, I found that this actually wasn’t a canon of the council, rather a closing comment by the Emperor seeking to find a unified date. It is viewed as binding but to call it a canon wouldn’t be exactly right.

I concur. This was a great opportunity for catechesis on your part and could have been pointed out much more charitably.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

The Gregorian Calendar Pascha does not always meet the criteria of being after Jewish Passover.

I’m confused. Does that matter? I thought the date of Passover hasn’t factored in to calculating Easter since Nicaea I.

I still say the World Council of Churches’ proposal is the best: take the real astronomical vernal equinox. Find the actual first full moon over Jerusalem after that. Then Easter is the Sunday after that.

 

[Vico]

I’m confused. Does that matter? I thought the date of Passover hasn’t factored in to calculating Easter since Nicaea I.

I still say the World Council of Churches’ proposal is the best: take the real astronomical vernal equinox. Find the actual first full moon over Jerusalem after that. Then Easter is the Sunday after that.

WCC proposed this in 1997 to be adopted in 2001, and adopted by none!

A fixed date was acceptable according to the Vatican II, the second Gregorian Sunday in April (April 8th-14). Also not adopted.

Using the rule of Nicaea I is important to those that still use the Julian. Eastern Orthodoxy has been split over the issue since 1923. Now there are three calendar systems in use.

“In 1923 a Conference of Orthodox Churches in Constantinople refined the erroneous “Original” Julian Calendar. The technical correction was not much different than the 1582 version. As did Pope Gregory, so did the Orthodox Church refine the calendar by reducing the number of leap years, so that the average length of the civil calendar year would be nearer to the natural length of the solar year. By reducing the number of leap years in a 900-year cycle, the margin of difference was trimmed to 2.2 seconds a year which is virtually perfect. In this version, the Spring Equinox will arrive on March 21st for over 40,000 years.”

holy-trinity.org/modern/calen3.html

A Sunday in Gregorian may not fall on a Sunday in Julian.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

WCC proposed this in 1997 to be adopted in 2001, and adopted by none!

It’s never too late. I really do find it the most reasonable proposal.

Using the rule of Nicaea I is important to those that still use the Julian.

I think the fact that the WCC 1997 proposal uses the rule of Nicaea I is its most persuasive attribute.

A Sunday in Gregorian may not fall on a Sunday in Julian.

Wow, that does present huge problems.

How does your proposal - have the West accept Easter according to the Julian calendar - handle that issue? What if their Easter falls on a day that isn’t even a Sunday according to the calendar the rest of the world uses?

 

[Madaglan]

Many Orthodox Churches now use the “Revised Julian Calendar”

Many Orthodox Churches use the Revised Julian Calendar. The Orthodox Church of Finland in fact even uses the Gregorian Calendar, last I checked. Some Orthodox Churches use a combination of Julian and Revised Julian, depending on the parish.

Now, it should be noted that all Orthodox Churches have the same Paschal cycle; they celebrate Pascha on the same date regardless of what calendar they use.

I am told that, in Europe, many Eastern Catholics celebrate Pascha on the Orthodox rather than the Latin Catholic date.

 

[Hesychios]

I am told that, in Europe, many Eastern Catholics celebrate Pascha on the Orthodox rather than the Latin Catholic date.

I know a UGCC parish in Chicago that does, and according to 5loaves [above, post 21] her parish/mission of the Russian Catholic church in San Francisco does as well.