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John_of_Patmos
Guest
Wow.
Lets just hope we’re one happy family again by then…
I really hope YOU didn’t calculate that!
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Lets just hope we’re one happy family again by then…
I really hope YOU didn’t calculate that!
P
Paul_theApostle
Guest
I dont know much about this issue but I wanted to ask ,Has the Catholic church violated the canons of Nicaea regarding the Easter date?
If they have does that mean they are in the wrong?
thanks
If they have does that mean they are in the wrong?
thanks
V
Vico
Guest
Easter would occur on any day of the week (like Christmas) of the Gregorian calendar if the calculation was based the Julian calendar. The Jewish calendar (354 day year) has 12 months of 29 or 30 days so it is shorter, but with the extra 30 day month added when needed, it is accurate. The Julian year is 365.25 and so is the Gregorian 365.24.It’s never too late.I really do find it the most reasonable proposal.
I think the fact that the WCC 1997 proposal uses the rule of Nicaea I is its most persuasive attribute.
Wow, that does present huge problems.
How does your proposal - have the West accept Easter according to the Julian calendar - handle that issue? What if their Easter falls on a day that isn’t even a Sunday according to the calendar the rest of the world uses?
It’s on a Sunday of the Julian Calendar which is currently 13 days different than the Gregorian. The Gregorian began in 1582, but was not adopted everywhere. Britain and British Empire only adopted it in 1752. Russia adopted it in 1917, and Greece 1923.
F
Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
I could be wrong, but in general I think eastern Catholic churches - wherever they are - celebrate Easter on its eastern date rather than on its western date.
Neither the Latin Church nor the eastern churches (Catholic or Orthodox) violate the canons of Nicaea regarding the Easter date.
Nicaea I decreed that Easter should be observed on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox. Unfortunately, the ways of determining the vernal equinox and the lunar cycle have been based on calculations of ecclesiastical calendars rather than on the actual astronomical events identified.
For instance, the western way of calculating Easter starts with a fixed date for the vernal equinox: March 21. But that is an ecclesiastical convention. The actual vernal equinox can occur on that day, or a day before or a day after.
And you would be okay with that? I would find that too much of a concession, personally.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
The Ruthenian Church celebrates on the western date as far as I am aware. I also know for sure that two Melkite parishes and two UGCC parishes that celebrate the western date as well.
I think over all, here in North America we (Byzantine rite Churches) are a mixed bag.
I have also heard that Latin parishes in Egypt celebrate the eastern date.
M
malphono
Guest
The same is, I believe, true in Greece and Cyprus, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was also done in Russia.
A
A_G
Guest
I agree.
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Thanks, I thought it was more widespread but I was only sure of Egypt.
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Vico
Guest
I think the concession is what we have today. It would be difficult to be unified, yet the original idea was to be Sunday and after the Jewish Passover. But the Jewish Passover uses a year with a leap month, which is fundamentally different that the leap day approach. Perhaps the Church can agree on the concept first and then work out a solution together. I believe that the disunity introduced into Orthodoxy by adoption of the new calender in 1923 was not good. I can understand that the Catholic Church adopted the Gregorian calendar without including the Orthodox, due to the schism. If there is to be unity, then I would like to see the Catholic and Orthodox agree on a system together. As it is we have Jewish, Julian, Gregorian, and Revised Julian.
V
Vico
Guest
Fone Bone 2001,
Now that I am back from a four mile run, I am thinking clearer. I changed my mind, it is too much of a concession to not utilitze Sunday of the civil calendar.
Now that I am back from a four mile run, I am thinking clearer. I changed my mind, it is too much of a concession to not utilitze Sunday of the civil calendar.
V
Vico
Guest
I found out that both Julian and Gregorian Easter is sometimes before Jewish Passover. Also a Julian Calendar Sunday is a Gregorian Calendar Sunday.
5
5Loaves
Guest
My EC parish is on the revised Julian so we do. Of course last Pascha this this coming one fall on the same Sunday for all of us.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Ah, that makes sense. I suppose all these churches feel that it’s important for Christian churches in an area to be unified, which is quite noble of them.
I agree. I just can’t imagine not celebrating the Resurrection of the Lord on a Sunday.
Without exceptions? I’m relieved to hear that!
Well, not that my opinion matters at all as I’m not a theologian, bishop, or scientist, but in that case I definitely stand by my opinion the WCC proposal from the late twentieth century is the best idea.
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
Actually, no. The Julian calendar only applies to the calculation of feast-days. It has nothing to do with the days of the week or with the calculation of Easter.
It would be great to have a single calendar and the Orthodox will bend on everythng except the calculation of Easter.
Perhaps the West can bend on that one thing as an expression of good will?
Alex
D
dvdjs
Guest
What an odd remark in this context. The Western calculation of Pascha upholds the formulation of the Nicean council. The Eastern does not.
There have been several proposals from the East in the past century to adjust their calculation to achieve compliance with the Nicean formulation. If they could move forward with these proposals, the West would join them.
D
dvdjs
Guest
First. IIRC there are no “canons” on the calendar that survive from the Nicean council. But the promulgation letter from the Emperor on the subject does survive, as do a number of other sources from close to that date. The formulation is: first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox. The Emperors suggested that the astronomical observation be done in Alexandria where the best astronomers were, at that time, but that suggestion was never received universally.
So, in principle, if one were wrong in the determination of the equinox, one would be inconsistent with the canons about the date of Pashca. Likewise if the calculations involved some approximations (as they do), then there could be (and are) errors. Such deviations have occurred.
The difference between East and West hinges primarily on the question of determining the equinox. At the time of the Nicean council the equinox was Mar21 Julian. Over the centuries, owing to the inadequacies of the Julian calendar the deviation between Mar21 and the actual equinox became increasingly large and the date of Pascha celebration was out of compliance with the Nicean formulation. The West adjusted the calendar to achieve a more accurate account of the length of the year, and shifted the dates, putting the vernal equinox back at Mar 21, so that the established relationship between the movable and movable feasts would be maintained. The relationship has been skewed in the Orthodox churches who use the Gregorian calendar for immovable feats but the East calculation of Pascha.
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dvdjs
Guest
Very interesting. Alex, do you the history of this change in the use of the Julian calendar. Before the Gregorian reform, and in many places for some time afterwards, it was the calendar, specifying among other things the days of the week.
Each time the discrepancy between the two calendars incremented by a day (via their differences in counting leap years), there should have been a shift, by a day, in the days of the week of the two calendars. Presumably that had been occurring, and there was a time that different countries had their “Sundays” out of sync. How did that all change?
V
Vico
Guest
I do think that the Churches should decide together.
So then, the following is wrong?
"The Old Calendarists use the Julian Calendar to determine the date of ALL religious feasts. This means that Christmas and Epiphany (for example) are 25 Dec. and 6 Jan. JULIAN, repectively. This (currently!) translates to 7 Jan. and 19 Jan. Gregorian, respectively.
The New Calendarists use the Julian Calendar to determine the date of Easter (and celebrations related to Easter) while using the Gregorian calendar to determine the date of fixed celebrations. Thus New Calendarists celebrate Christmas and Epiphany on the same date as the Western Christians, Dec. 25 and 6 Jan. GREGORIAN (respectively). Currently, the New Calendarists are celebrating the fixed feasts 13 days prior to the celebrations of the Old Calendarists."
"2.9.6. Isn’t there a simpler way to calculate [Orthodox] Easter?
This is an attempt to boil down the information given in the previous sections (the divisions are integer divisions, in which remainders are discarded):[Note: 22%7=1 ; 22/7=3, so % returns the remainder, and / neglects the remainder.]
G = year % 19
I = (19G + 15) % 30
J = (year + year/4 + I) % 7
L = I - J
EasterMonth = 3 + (L + 40)/44
EasterDay = L + 28 - 31(EasterMonth/4)
[Note: Orthodox Easter is then EasterDay of EasterMonth in the Julian Calendar. You will need to add the correct offset to obtain the date in the Gregorian Calendar. From Julian Mar 1, 1900, to Julian Feb 29, 2100, the correction is to add 13 days to the Julian date to obtain the Gregorian date.]
This algorithm is based in part on the algorithm of Oudin (1940) and quoted in “Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac”, P. Kenneth Seidelmann, editor.
People who want to dig into the workings of this algorithm, may be interested to know that
G is the Golden Number-1
I is the number of days from 21 March to the Paschal full moon
J is the weekday for the Paschal full moon (0=Sunday, 1=Monday, etc.)
L is the number of days from 21 March to the Sunday on or before the Pascal full moon (a number between -6 and 28)"
smart.net/~mmontes/ortheast.html
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
In all fairness, neither the west nor the east uses the actual astronomical equinox in its calculation of Easter. That Gregorian March 21 happens to be the real equinox much of the time doesn’t really make the western way of calculating Easter any more “Nicean” or sensible than the eastern way. The way I see it, the convention of an ecclesiastically fixed equinox is more trouble than it’s worth.
I wish we could just scrap it and go with the real astronomical equinox. Irregardless of who has to adjust their Easter date more, objectively speaking both parties would be making the exact same concession: get rid of your ecclesiastical equinox and use the real one.
S
Serry
Guest
Since Christians love Christ, who prayed at the Last Supper for us all to be one, as the Father and He are one, a united date for the solemn celebration of our Lord’s Resurrection would be good.
If I understand rightly (and perhaps I don’t), the calendar date for Easter is - traditionally, and by the early Ecumenical Councils - set always on the first Sunday following the calendar Full Moon (there is indeed an ecclesial Church lunar calendar, by the way - the Old Catholic Encyclopedia goes into wonderful detail about it all), that falls on or after the calendar Spring Equinox (the latter being March 21).
And as far as I know (do please correct me, if you can cite a source to the contrary), the original Council Canon didn’t specify if it had to be forever the Julian Calendar.that would have to be the basis.
If one sticks too literally to using the Julian calendar (itself a correction of the previous, whimsically adjusted Roman calendar), the “spring equinox” drifts, as do the dates of the calendar Full Moons. Carried on long enough, we might be celebrating Easter in mid-winter or mid-summer, which would be rather odd. That’s the main reason corrections were made, instituting the Gregorian calendar.
(Quick anecdote, a little-known historical fact: It wasn’t long after Julius Caesar instituted the Julian calendar, that he was assassinated. Caesars are also in charge of the pagan priestly functions, including calendar adjustments for the feasts. His correction was that leap years fall without fail every fourth year. Unfortunately, his successors were counting “inclusively” - you count the four years, and recount the last one as the first in the next group of four, to count inclusively. It amounted to having them every three years. Augustus Caesar noticed that they had done too many leap years, and so mandated a moratorium on leap years, till things got caught up - just about in time for B.C. to become A.D., as we reckon it in hindsight. I’d give the reference but have lost it, it was a scholarly book on Historical Chronology of the ancient era, from an interlibrary loan, came from the midwest to the west coast!)
So - yes, the Catholics could just go along with the Orthodox, for the Easter date, but then that date would keep slowly drifting. Better if both got together, and made peace over the issue, and came up with something that would preserve the season.
(Actually, I don’t know why we should keep having that rule about “Sunday after”; it was just to avoid coincidence with the Passover, which is odd.)
“Let charity and love prevail.” “As for contention, we have no such custom.”
If I understand rightly (and perhaps I don’t), the calendar date for Easter is - traditionally, and by the early Ecumenical Councils - set always on the first Sunday following the calendar Full Moon (there is indeed an ecclesial Church lunar calendar, by the way - the Old Catholic Encyclopedia goes into wonderful detail about it all), that falls on or after the calendar Spring Equinox (the latter being March 21).
And as far as I know (do please correct me, if you can cite a source to the contrary), the original Council Canon didn’t specify if it had to be forever the Julian Calendar.that would have to be the basis.
If one sticks too literally to using the Julian calendar (itself a correction of the previous, whimsically adjusted Roman calendar), the “spring equinox” drifts, as do the dates of the calendar Full Moons. Carried on long enough, we might be celebrating Easter in mid-winter or mid-summer, which would be rather odd. That’s the main reason corrections were made, instituting the Gregorian calendar.
(Quick anecdote, a little-known historical fact: It wasn’t long after Julius Caesar instituted the Julian calendar, that he was assassinated. Caesars are also in charge of the pagan priestly functions, including calendar adjustments for the feasts. His correction was that leap years fall without fail every fourth year. Unfortunately, his successors were counting “inclusively” - you count the four years, and recount the last one as the first in the next group of four, to count inclusively. It amounted to having them every three years. Augustus Caesar noticed that they had done too many leap years, and so mandated a moratorium on leap years, till things got caught up - just about in time for B.C. to become A.D., as we reckon it in hindsight. I’d give the reference but have lost it, it was a scholarly book on Historical Chronology of the ancient era, from an interlibrary loan, came from the midwest to the west coast!)
So - yes, the Catholics could just go along with the Orthodox, for the Easter date, but then that date would keep slowly drifting. Better if both got together, and made peace over the issue, and came up with something that would preserve the season.
(Actually, I don’t know why we should keep having that rule about “Sunday after”; it was just to avoid coincidence with the Passover, which is odd.)
“Let charity and love prevail.” “As for contention, we have no such custom.”
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