Catholic bishops call for united Easter holiday across churches

[louis91766]

Can you provide some support for you statements here? I assume you are not referring to the Council of Catholic Patriarchs of the Orient in the original article provided in the OP here, since they are almost certainly asking for the use of the Julian Calendar for the date for Pascha.

I gave the Eastern Orthodox dates for Easter above. If the Catholic authorities only wanted a unified date for Easter, and nothing more, why would they not simply accept those dates and move on from there?

 

[5Loaves]

I gave the Eastern Orthodox dates for Easter above. If the Catholic authorities only wanted a unified date for Easter, and nothing more, why would they not simply accept those dates and move on from there?

I’m entirely familiar with the the Eastern Orthodox dates for Pascha, which are the dates used in my Catholic parish.

My question to you is please provide some references to sources where these “Catholics” with “hidden agendas” are asking for the unified date. It isn’t in the article provided, nor in any other place I’ve seen. I’m asking you to give some references we can see that supports what you’ve said here:

Catholics are the ones who are calling for a unified date for Easter. But t**hey are attaching conditions **to their request which might be offensive to Eastern Orthodox Christians. Catholics then **have a hidden agenda **when they call for a unified date for Easter. They are not calling for a unified date, but are asking Eastern Orthodox to give up on their method of calculating the date and to submit to the Roman method of doing so.
If the only thing that the Catholics wanted was to have a unified date for Easter, they could easily have it by agreeing to the Eastern Orthodox date for Easter.

 

[louis91766]

I’m entirely familiar with the the Eastern Orthodox dates for Pascha, which are the dates used in my Catholic parish.

My question to you is please provide some references to sources where these “Catholics” with “hidden agendas” are asking for the unified date. It isn’t in the article provided, nor in any other place I’ve seen. I’m asking you to give some references we can see that supports what you’ve said here:

I have done the best i could to support my reasoning. The reasoning again is as follows:

1. The R. Catholic bishops are calling for a united date for Easter.
2. The R. Catholic authorities could bring about a unified date for Easter if they simply accepted the Orthodox dates for Easter.
3. The Roman Catholic bishops do not appear to be willing to accept the Orthodox dates for Easter for the Roman Church. They have not accepted the Orthodox dates for Easter (at least up to now).
4. Why would that be, except that they are asking for something more in addition to merely a simple request for a unified date for Easter.

That is the gist of my reasoning and the only support for what I hypothesized above.
BTW, I see a possible problem in that I was referring to Roman Catholic bishops in the USA who have in the past said that they were in favor of a united date for Easter. I was not referring to any of the Eastern Catholic bishops who might favor the use of the Orthodox date for Easter.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Catholics are the ones who are calling for a unified date for Easter.

Okay, that is a fair point. I understand now.

Still, the amount of trouble the early Church went through to ensure a unified date for Easter means that, patristically speaking, it ought to be pretty high on the agenda, right? I know the Orthodox profess to care about continuity with what the early Church believed, taught, and practiced. I wish all Christians cared more about a unified Easter, as our forebears unquestionably did.

But they are attaching conditions to their request which might be offensive to Eastern Orthodox Christians. Catholics then have a hidden agenda when they call for a unified date for Easter. They are not calling for a unified date, but are asking Eastern Orthodox to give up on their method of calculating the date and to submit to the Roman method of doing so.

Not if the Latin Church would have to change its method of calculating the date of Easter, too.

That is precisely what I think is most fair about the proposal which asks both east and west to scrap their ecclesiastically and arbitrarily fixed dates for the vernal equinox.

Neither west nor east consistently celebrates Easter on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox. Because of ecclesiastical calendar conventions, both sometimes get it wrong. But it remains ironic that the east - which cares far more about fidelity to what Nicaea I decided than the west seems to - actually fails more often than the west to follow the Nicaean standard.

I was not referring to any of the Eastern Catholic bishops who might favor the use of the Orthodox date for Easter.

They’re the ones mentioned in the article, and they do want to use the Orthodox date for Easter. They agree with you.

 

[dvdjs]

1. The R. Catholic bishops are calling for a united date for Easter.
2. The R. Catholic authorities could bring about a unified date for Easter if they simply accepted the Orthodox dates for Easter.
3. The Roman Catholic bishops do not appear to be willing to accept the Orthodox dates for Easter for the Roman Church. They have not accepted the Orthodox dates for Easter (at least up to now).
4. Why would that be, except that they are asking for something more in addition to merely a simple request for a unified date for Easter.
   …I was referring to Roman Catholic bishops in the USA who have in the past said that they were in favor of a united date for Easter. I was not referring to any of the Eastern Catholic bishops who might favor the use of the Orthodox date for Easter.

If you were referring to Roman Catholic bishops in the USA, then your argument is even weaker.

First, there are many who have called or respoded favorably to the call for a common date of Pascha. For example, those involved in the drafting of the Aleppo statement, and those who have supported it include more than RC bishops, and more than Western Christians. Indeed there are many in Orthodoxy who have publically supported the idea.

Secondly, the idea that “R. Catholic authorities could bring about a unified date for Easter if they simply accepted the Orthodox dates for Easter” is almost certainly wrong. There is more to Christianity than Catholics and Orthodox - even in Lebanon. Your suspicions fall apart in the face of this fact.

Finally, in discussions such as Aleppo, the aim has been to consider, without, preconditions, how to best adhere to the Nicean formulation. I don’t think that that idea has been hidden at all.

 

[louis91766]

They’re the ones mentioned in the article, and they do want to use the Orthodox date for Easter. They agree with you.

thanks Fone bone. I was trying to say that I didn’t see why the Roman bishops in the USA who have said that they favor a common date for Easter did not simply go along with that idea.

 

[louis91766]

Secondly, the idea that “R. Catholic authorities could bring about a unified date for Easter if they simply accepted the Orthodox dates for Easter” is almost certainly wrong. There is more to Christianity than Catholics and Orthodox - even in Lebanon. Your suspicions fall apart in the face of this fact.

I don;t see that. If the Orthodox and the Catholics agreed to a common date for Easter, why would it not be only be a short time until all other Christians agreed to that date.

 

[dvdjs]

I don’t see that. If the Orthodox and the Catholics agreed to a common date for Easter, why would it not be only be a short time until all other Christians agreed to that date.

Huh?
Please notice that there are many denominations that have a difficult time accepting what Catholics do, and as many or more that don’t really care a bit about what the Orthodox do. Coming together, without a prioris, to make a common witness is a stretch. The idea that other Western denominations should simply follow along in whatever Catholics do - that idea is a non starter. Consider how many things there are that Catholics and Orthodox agree about that Protestants don’t, and show no indication of just following along.

And btw, what is a “short time”? The many centuries it took for common use of the Gregorian calendar?

 

[dvdjs]

thanks Fone bone. I was trying to say that I didn’t see why the Roman bishops in the USA who have said that they favor a common date for Easter did not simply go along with that idea.

Well you might consider what the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation has to say, as posted at the SCOBA website.
scoba.us/articles/celebrating-easter-pascha.html

 

[louis91766]

Huh?
Please notice that there are many denominations that have a difficult time accepting what Catholics do, and as many or more that don’t really care a bit about what the Orthodox do. Coming together, without a prioris, to make a common witness is a stretch. The idea that other Western denominations should simply follow along in whatever Catholics do - that idea is a non starter. Consider how many things there are that Catholics and Orthodox agree about that Protestants don’t, and show no indication of just following along.

And btw, what is a “short time”? The many centuries it took for common use of the Gregorian calendar?

It would be the first step to the agreement. The Protestants all eventually followed in line with the Gregorian calendar.

 

[louis91766]

Well you might consider what the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation has to say, as posted at the SCOBA website.
scoba.us/articles/celebrating-easter-pascha.html

If you are so concerned about what the Protestants are going to do, where is there representation in this group of Catholic and Orthodox participants?

 

[dvdjs]

If you are so concerned about what the Protestants are going to do, where is there representation in this group of Catholic and Orthodox participants?

Actually, I am not concerned about that - especially in light of their participation in drafting the Aleppo document that the is being reaffirmed. I am concerned, however, about your insinuation of some hidden agenda. Your chain of logic relies either on ignoring Protestants, or assuming that they will just follow the Vatican. and thus has some very weak links. I would hope that upon reflection, you would just drop that hidden agenda idea.

 

[louis91766]

Actually, I am not concerned about that - especially in light of their participation in drafting the Aleppo document that the is being reaffirmed. I am concerned, however, about your insinuation of some hidden agenda. Your chain of logic relies either on ignoring Protestants, or assuming that they will just follow the Vatican. and thus has some very weak links. I would hope that upon reflection, you would just drop that hidden agenda idea.

I don’t see the problem in simply accepting the Orthodox date for Easter.

 

[ByzKat]

I don’t see the problem in simply accepting the Orthodox date for Easter.

The problem is that the church calendar, at least in the Byzantine Rite, doesn’t work if you use a different calendar for the fixed feasts (like the Nativity, December 25) and for calculating the date of Pascha.

So if you use the Julian calendar (13 days later from the Gregorian calendar right now) for figuring out when Pascha is, then you should also be using it for calculating “what day it is” the rest of the year.

And THAT means that today is November 15,even though the banner on this website says it is November 28. And while I understand the (somewhat self-serving) appeal to this - we get good prices on Christmas ornaments! We can eat meat on American Thanksgiving! etc - it introduces a major mental distinction between “my life in church” and “my life as a whole” which I think is somewhat unhealthy.

“Well, when we’re in church, today is November 15. But when we go outside it is November 28. Except at meal times, when you have to remember the “true” day so you know whether to fast, and what saint’s day it is. But if you are at the after-Liturgy luncheon and Father announces the date of the next church social, he is probably using the “non-church” date for that.”

And so on. Not to mention that God has arranged it so that the first day of Spring (astronomically) now falls on a day other than the one used to calculate the Orthodox Easter - so even the physical world falls into the “no working according to God’s design” category. I have heard some Orthodox use the Julian / Gregorian calendar to help children remember how completely screwed up everything outside “the church” is. Personally, I think Christ (with our help) is redeeming the world - but does that mean we are called to see that civil society adopts the Julian calendar, so that they finally see that today IS November 15??

P.S. I have NO problem with the churches in one region deciding to use the Julian calendar in common. But simply adopting it for the entire Christian world raises the very real issues I have outlined.

 

[louis91766]

The problem is that the church calendar, at least in the Byzantine Rite, doesn’t work if you use a different calendar for the fixed feasts (like the Nativity, December 25) and for calculating the date of Pascha.

So if you use the Julian calendar (13 days later from the Gregorian calendar right now) for figuring out when Pascha is, then you should also be using it for calculating “what day it is” the rest of the year.

And THAT means that today is November 15,even though the banner on this website says it is November 28. And while I understand the (somewhat self-serving) appeal to this - we get good prices on Christmas ornaments! We can eat meat on American Thanksgiving! etc - it introduces a major mental distinction between “my life in church” and “my life as a whole” which I think is somewhat unhealthy.

“Well, when we’re in church, today is November 15. But when we go outside it is November 28. Except at meal times, when you have to remember the “true” day so you know whether to fast, and what saint’s day it is. But if you are at the after-Liturgy luncheon and Father announces the date of the next church social, he is probably using the “non-church” date for that.”

And so on. Not to mention that God has arranged it so that the first day of Spring (astronomically) now falls on a day other than the one used to calculate the Orthodox Easter - so even the physical world falls into the “no working according to God’s design” category. I have heard some Orthodox use the Julian / Gregorian calendar to help children remember how completely screwed up everything outside “the church” is. Personally, I think Christ (with our help) is redeeming the world - but does that mean we are called to see that civil society adopts the Julian calendar, so that they finally see that today IS November 15??

P.S. I have NO problem with the churches in one region deciding to use the Julian calendar in common. But simply adopting it for the entire Christian world raises the very real issues I have outlined.

I don’t see the argument here, because a Church could simply declare that Easter will be celebrated on a certain Sunday of the year, which in the end would agree with the Orthodox date.