Catholic Bishops Launch Immigration Reform Campaign

[Philip_P]

miguel:

I guess I haven’t bought into that myth. My point is the demand for labor is huge in America. Because of that, people have more choices. Not everyone has to be a farm worker (or whatever your stereotype of the typical illegal worker is.)

Assuming illegals are farm workers, kitchen help, and other low rungs on the economic ladder is a function of their legal status, not cultural or other stereotypes. It’s difficult to rise to higher paid, highly visible positions in a community when you’re always worried about the INS. Furthermore, the fear of the INS gives exploitative employers enormous leverage over their illegal workers. I’m all for creating a legal place for these workers so that they, too, can enjoy the protections offered by rule of law.

Second, if the 40 mm Americans who had been aborted were alive today, the economy would be larger, not the same size as it is now. Your claim that illegals are filling the spaces left by the aborted Americans only makes sense if you think the economy would be the exact same size as it currently is. That’s not likely.

If you want to tie abortion to immigration, I wouldn’t do it the way you are. I might argue that in a society which routinely rejects life, we should not be surprised to find it is also hostile to the stranger and the foreigner. That brings us neatly back into the Biblical tradition that encourages us to welcome the stranger and the foreigner and is in line with the consistent ethic of life which opposes abortion, death penalty, euthanasia, and is strongly biased against war.

 

[Lisa_N]

miguel:

Lisa, I hope you don’t think I accused you of blaming the immigrants. That was not my intention at all. I happen to think you are one of the most reasonable people on this forum.

Oh absolutely not. I think all people of good conscious are torn by this dilemma. As Christians we should welcome and be hospitable. OTOH we are now facing a situation where our own citizens are being denied because illegals are overutilizing our resources. Hospitals, law enforcement, schools, shelters, food banks are ALL being innundated by illegals. Meanwhile our state budget is dessimated and health care, homes for the elderly and handicapped and schools are all suffering huge budget cuts. In no way am I blaming illegals for ALL of our problems but the reality is that they greatly overutilize services vis a vis their contribution to the tax base.

Yet they are also being exploited and that digusts me to no end. The element that is ‘skating’ is the employer who is able to get cheap labor, not pay benefits, and basically risks nothing. When was the last time you heard of an INS raid? Used to happen ALL the time. No more. If we started hammering the EMPLOYERS they would get these people legal in a New York minute.

Lisa N

 

[condan]

Philip P:

…

If you want to tie abortion to immigration, I wouldn’t do it the way you are. I might argue that in a society which routinely rejects life, we should not be surprised to find it is also hostile to the stranger and the foreigner. That brings us neatly back into the Biblical tradition that encourages us to welcome the stranger and the foreigner and is in line with the consistent ethic of life which opposes abortion, death penalty, euthanasia, and is strongly biased against war.

No one is hostile to the stranger and the foreigner…who have the legal right to be here. It is the people who come here illegally in order to profit from our largesse who are problematic.

 

[DustinsDad]

Philip P:

For those who support the Church’s stance on immigration, here’s some uplifting news. For those who disagree with it, take this as a challenge and opportunity to critically think about this issue.

For everyone, remember that ultimately it’s not about Republicans and Democrats, but about being a leaven to challenge and reform our nation.

The link:

usccb.org/comm/archives/2005/05-117.shtml

(I first saw this in Washington Post, but since not everyone has a subscription to that I’ve linked to the USCCB).

Let me be completely cynical on this one: I think this issue is one led by “liberal” bishops of the US who seem to be more interested in being liked by the mass media and one particular political party than in actually proclaiming the difficult and unpopular non-negotiable tennants of the faith.

Sympathy for free-for-all illigal immigration is a prudential judgement call and a misguided sense of compassion at best. It encourages the poor to break the just laws of of government, disguises the forcible redistribution of wealth as charity (I thought charity is something given, not taken), and hides the real problem of a society contracepting and aborting (and soon to be euthanizing) itself out of existance.

If Western society weren’t contracepting and aborting (and soon to be euthanizing) themselves out of existance, the idea of open borders wouldn’t be so popular among the liberals & socialists to replace their dying populations with that of illegal immigrants (this goes for both the US and Europe - and worse for Europe since they’re replacing the population with anti-Christian Muslim immigrants).

That’s all. Steam sufficiently released now.

Peace in Christ

Dustinsdad

 

[DustinsDad]

condan:

The Church in the U.S., i.e., the USCCB, needs to focus on matters of faith and morals and let the government sort out the immigration mess. We as Catholics have to worry about the future of our faith. Our parishes are closing and Catholic education will soon be a thing of the past. Focusing on immigration reform is a big turnoff to many faithful and is seen as a complete waste of resources and a diversion from the things that really matter.

DustinsDad

 

[Brad]

condan:

The Church in the U.S., i.e., the USCCB, needs to focus on matters of faith and morals and let the government sort out the immigration mess. We as Catholics have to worry about the future of our faith. Our parishes are closing and Catholic education will soon be a thing of the past. Focusing on immigration reform is a big turnoff to many faithful and is seen as a complete waste of resources and a diversion from the things that really matter.

As it is, we have legislation that will pay medical bills for illegal immigrants and 8 states that offer free college tuition to illegals. Now we have the USCCB using our annual appeal funds to promote more misuse of our tax dollars. To me, that just doesn’t make any sense at all. Let Vincente Fox fix his own house.

Correct. This is just more political left diatribe from the USCCB. McCarrick apparently always wanted to be a politiician. How about focusing on Christ and the salvation of the souls in the flock? This IS the calling of our Bishops.

 

[Brad]

DustinsDad:

Let me be completely cynical on this one: I think this issue is one led by “liberal” bishops of the US who seem to be more interested in being liked by the mass media and one particular political party than in actually proclaiming the difficult and unpopular non-negotiable tennants of the faith.

Sympathy for free-for-all illigal immigration is a prudential judgement call and a misguided sense of compassion at best. It encourages the poor to break the just laws of of government, disguises the forcible redistribution of wealth as charity (I thought charity is something given, not taken), and hides the real problem of a society contracepting and aborting (and soon to be euthanizing) itself out of existance.

If Western society weren’t contracepting and aborting (and soon to be euthanizing) themselves out of existance, the idea of open borders wouldn’t be so popular among the liberals & socialists to replace their dying populations with that of illegal immigrants (this goes for both the US and Europe - and worse for Europe since they’re replacing the population with anti-Christian Muslim immigrants).

That’s all. Steam sufficiently released now.

Peace in Christ

Dustinsdad

Extremely well said. :clapping:

Immigration is great. Nobody is against immigration. People are rightfully against law breakers, most specifically in this case at the expense of law abiders that suffered for many years in their own country before making it here and many that are STILL suffering in their own country. Of course, we go to help those suffering in other countries and we are called war mongerers.

 

[miguel]

Philip P:

…if the 40 mm Americans who had been aborted were alive today, the economy would be larger, not the same size as it is now. Your claim that illegals are filling the spaces left by the aborted Americans only makes sense if you think the economy would be the exact same size as it currently is. That’s not likely.

I’m not sure what you mean. The 40 million aborted didn’t get to this point in a day. It ramped up starting back in 1973 with Roe v Wade. It didn’t start to impact the workforce until those killed in 1973 would have started to enter it approx. 20 years later. Likewise the illegal problem didn’t get to this point in a day. It started ramping up in the generally growing economy with the growing demand for labor that couldn’t be met purely by Americans. Note that all during this time the unemployment rate remained low (approx 5%). If illegal immigration would have been squelched when all this really started to be a problem back in the late 80’s/early 90s, the economy, instead of growing all this time, would have gone into recession and probably stayed there. How do you run businesses without people?

 

[Philip_P]

• Miguel - There will always be jobs Americans don’t want, regardless of our population. That’s why it makes no sense to attempt to tie abortion to immigration the way you are doing. Again, if you want to tie abortion to immigration, you’ll be better off focusing on attitudes - a culture hostile to life will understandably be hostile to immigration.

-Brad and DustinsDad, I’m sure you don’t mean what you said. If McCarrick can be dismissed just because you don’t like his politics, then I can dismiss Chaput since he’s obviously shilling for the Republicans. Come on guys, take off your partisan hats and put on your Catholic ones. It’s ok to disagree with the party line of the man you voted for - I do it all the time – I voted for Kerry, and I oppose measures, positions, and proposals pushed by Democrats. I promise they won’t throw you into Guantanamo.

• For those who see illegals as criminals, you think they’re all just sitting back in Mexico nefariously plot are sitting back in Mexico saying to themselves “I want to risk death, hardship, and dishonor so that I can go revel in the largess of employers who will pay me poor wages?” Come on, they’re not here because they’re part of some nefarious plot to subvert our laws and social order, they’re just human beings trying to look out for themselves and their families, same as you or I. The fact that they have to break the law is a problem, but this is a different kind of breaking the law than murder or rape or even stealing a car. They become law-breakers simply by virtue of having the same goals and aspirations as a human being lucky enough to be born on this side of the Rio Grande.

The current system is exploitative and immoral because it completely takes advantage of these people. We need the labor, and they want to come here. So let’s work it out so that it’s done LEGALLY, in the full site of the law, with all the safeguards and protections for employees and employers that the law provides for. I encourage you to read more on the subject. Once again, our bishops’ statment is at usccb.org/comm/archives/2005/05-117.shtml

 

[Lisa_N]

Philip P:

• For those who see illegals as criminals, you think they’re all just sitting back in Mexico nefariously plot are sitting back in Mexico saying to themselves “I want to risk death, hardship, and dishonor so that I can go revel in the largess of employers who will pay me poor wages?” Come on, they’re not here because they’re part of some nefarious plot to subvert our laws and social order, they’re just human beings trying to look out for themselves and their families, same as you or I. The fact that they have to break the law is a problem, but this is a different kind of breaking the law than murder or rape or even stealing a car. They become law-breakers simply by virtue of having the same goals and aspirations as a human being lucky enough to be born on this side of the Rio Grande.

Philip, actually one of the most serious issues is the amount of CRIMINAL activity coming from the south, not just Mexico but increasingly South America. I assure you, living in an area that has seen FOUR HUNDRED FORTY PERCENT growth in the Hispanic population in five years, drugs, gang violence and even drunk driving has been disproportionally carried out by illegals. We just had three young boys literally assassinate a couple of grandparents while the grandchild looked on. Another group had a burglary ring going in homes two miles from my house. Something like 70% of the methamphetamine comes from Mexico. We HAVE to do something about our borders. I agree we need the labor and the majority of illegals are here to work and raise their families. But as always the ‘bad apples’ spoil it for everyone else.
Philip P:

The current system is exploitative and immoral because it completely takes advantage of these people. We need the labor, and they want to come here. So let’s work it out so that it’s done LEGALLY, in the full site of the law, with all the safeguards and protections for employees and employers that the law provides for. I encourage you to read more on the subject. Once again, our bishops’ statment is at usccb.org/comm/archives/2005/05-117.shtml

I agree the current situation is a disgrace. In effect it punishes the people who take steps to come legally and who work hard, pay taxes and pay their bills. Those who come for the ‘free ride’ and believe me it’s available (schools, food bank, shelters, medical care) are another story. Worse yet the criminal element that is associated with illegal entry.

I keep asking why the guest worker program has not been implemented. It’s expensive and difficult to get a work visa, I know, I used to do them for our company. So we need to streamline the process and enforce the borders to keep out the bad guys.

Lisa n

 

[Philip_P]

Lisa N:

Philip, actually one of the most serious issues is the amount of CRIMINAL activity coming from the south, not just Mexico but increasingly South America. I assure you, living in an area that has seen FOUR HUNDRED FORTY PERCENT growth in the Hispanic population in five years, drugs, gang violence and even drunk driving has been disproportionally carried out by illegals. We just had three young boys literally assassinate a couple of grandparents while the grandchild looked on. Another group had a burglary ring going in homes two miles from my house. Something like 70% of the methamphetamine comes from Mexico. We HAVE to do something about our borders. I agree we need the labor and the majority of illegals are here to work and raise their families. But as always the ‘bad apples’ spoil it for everyone else.

I agree the current situation is a disgrace. In effect it punishes the people who take steps to come legally and who work hard, pay taxes and pay their bills. Those who come for the ‘free ride’ and believe me it’s available (schools, food bank, shelters, medical care) are another story. Worse yet the criminal element that is associated with illegal entry.

I keep asking why the guest worker program has not been implemented. It’s expensive and difficult to get a work visa, I know, I used to do them for our company. So we need to streamline the process and enforce the borders to keep out the bad guys.

Lisa n

But the criminal activity is still criminal, even apart from immigration issues. I hope you don’t mistake my support for immigration reform with supporting ACTUAL criminals! However, currently the population movements and increases are completely unmanaged since there’s no management by rule-of-law. I think immigration reform would be a big help in that instead of being focused on illegal immigrants, we can focus on immigrants committing crime.

Regarding the amnesty/guest worker program, that was something I was actually pretty excited about in Bush’s first term, then 9/11 happened and all momentum there died. If immigration reform happens, though, I think Bush can do it, since he’ll have the credibility with the conservatives to push it through (similar to education reform). I think, for once, we’re basically on the same side on this issue

 

[condan]

- …

• For those who see illegals as criminals, you think they’re all just sitting back in Mexico nefariously plot are sitting back in Mexico saying to themselves “I want to risk death, hardship, and dishonor so that I can go revel in the largess of employers who will pay me poor wages?” Come on, they’re not here because they’re part of some nefarious plot to subvert our laws and social order, they’re just human beings trying to look out for themselves and their families, same as you or I. The fact that they have to break the law is a problem, but this is a different kind of breaking the law than murder or rape or even stealing a car. They become law-breakers simply by virtue of having the same goals and aspirations as a human being lucky enough to be born on this side of the Rio Grande.

You are the one who is do ing the sweeping with a broad brush. The majority of illegals in the downstate New York area are single men or men who maintain their families back in Guatamela, El Salvador, Mexico or Equidor. They do not necessarily have the same hopes and aspirations as me and my family. Further, in the area that I just moved from, the vast majority of crime was committed by illegal immigrants. That’s just fact. (In the United States, there are 49,000 alien criminals in Federal penitentiaries alone…not counting state and local. That’s a large number.)

-The current system is exploitative and immoral because it completely takes advantage of these people. We need the labor, and they want to come here. So let’s work it out so that it’s done LEGALLY, in the full site of the law, with all the safeguards and protections for employees and employers that the law provides for. I encourage you to read more on the subject. Once again, our bishops’ statment is at usccb.org/comm/archives/2005/05-117.shtml

I’m not convinced that we need the labor. We need cheap labor but our welfare system has priced small employers out of the market. We need a system that is fair to everyone…including the taxpayers. The cost of educating the children of illegal immigrants is enormous, particularly since their are two factors common in their community that do not exist elsewhere: language and itinerancy.

As for the bishops, as I said earlier, making this a priority over the needs of other Catholics, especially children in need of an education, is a red herring to divert our attention over their unwillingness to lead us on issues of faith and morals. I already take care of illegal immigrants through my 38% tax share. I don’t need to add to it through the Bishop’s Annual Appeal.

 

[miguel]

Philip P:

Miguel - There will always be jobs Americans don’t want, regardless of our population.

Ok. So what? The demand for fruit-picking labor is largely a demand for illegal immigrant labor. And it’s been that way for a long time, even before Roe v. Wade. But maybe you haven’t noticed. Those aren’t the only jobs illegals are in. They are now everywhere, and in large numbers. This is a relatively recent phenomenon - post Roe v. Wade.
Philip P:

That’s why it makes no sense to attempt to tie abortion to immigration the way you are doing.

How is this statement logically connected to your first? If you think killing 40 million babies has no impact on our workforce, you are the one not making sense. Our growing economy is creating jobs. If we could fill all those jobs with our own people, the demand for immigrant labor would be much lower (limited to fruit-picking). But we can’t (because of Roe v. Wade). Hence the flood of illegals. These are market forces at play. If they knew they couldn’t find work, they wouldn’t be here.

 

[davy39]

It all boils down to this, folks. We have fair immagration laws. They were put there for a purpose. It’s way past time that we started enforcing them. Nobody knows how many criminals and terriorists have came accross with the people that supposedly want to make a living. If we have no secure borders, then we lose the country. The present system makes a mockery of all the people that immigrate here legally. Something must be done, and soon.

 

[Deus_Vult]

I have no problem with immigration to this country. I do think we should completely seal our northern and southern border due to security concerns. I think we should allow a person say from Mexico to come to our secured border and ask to come in to work…American Companies who want or need these workers should be there to pick them up and secure their employment after they have been screened for security purposes. In turn the person becomes documented, pays taxes, social security etc…I know the argument. What about the free medical they will recieve? As far as I’m concerned anyone who works should be paying into a medical insurance plan. It should not be an option for any of us…unfortunately some employers pay into certain medical plans more than others causing some people to not be able to afford it. I am not for a National Healthcare Program at all, socialized medicine does not work anywhere but requiring employers to pay a certain percentage of workers insurance is the solution and requiring anyone who works to have it would insure that immigrants pay for their own needs. For this plan to work there would have to be alot of insurance reforms currently the number of employees a company has dictates the cost to a company given by the insurance companies obviously my plan could hurt the small business person if changes were not made.

 

[MJE]

This reminds me of the US Bishops in the 1980’s and welfare. Great research was coming out of the Free Congress etc w/ serious and thoughful Catholics re: the harm the system was doing to the American black family and “children having children” etc. but the bishops lined up w/ the tried and failed liberal agenda. The Terry Schiavo case revealed they are not even a force to reckon w/ on such a fundamental issue.

 

[Lisa_N]

davy39:

It all boils down to this, folks. We have fair immagration laws. They were put there for a purpose. It’s way past time that we started enforcing them. Nobody knows how many criminals and terriorists have came accross with the people that supposedly want to make a living. If we have no secure borders, then we lose the country. The present system makes a mockery of all the people that immigrate here legally. Something must be done, and soon.

You know funny how things have changed. It USED to be employers would NOT hire illegals. Remember the days when all prospective employees had to provide all kinds of documentation? I remember being very nervous because we had hired a doctor who escaped from Hungary during the communist era and he was seeking asylum. At the time we hired him he wasn’t legal and we really sweated out some kind of INS inquiry. I also remember the days when the INS would hear about an employer who used illegals and there would be a big sweep and raid with the folks sent back to Mexico on a bus. Why don’t they do that anymore? Do we think taking the teeth out of INS had something to do with this literal horde of folks crossing the border? They have nothing to fear anymore. You’re right, we have laws why don’t we enforce them?

Lisa N

 

[DustinsDad]

- -…If McCarrick can be dismissed just because you don’t like his politics, then I can dismiss Chaput since he’s obviously shilling for the Republicans. … I voted for Kerry, and I oppose measures, positions, and proposals pushed by Democrats. I promise they won’t throw you into Guantanamo.

Okay…first of all Chaput isn’t “shilling for the Republicans”…he’s upholding unchangeable, unbendable, non-negotiable Catholic teaching that’s been with us from day one. Defending the sancity of human life, fighting against the legalized direct and intentional slaughter of millions of innocent human lives. You can’t reason or exuse yourself into a situation where the direct and intentional legalized slaughter of millions of innocent human lives can be in any way supported or condoned. Period. I don’t care what political party one happens to be in, this is plain and simple Catholic moral teaching - what political party happens to be closer to these non-negotiables is irrelevant.

McCarrick’s statement on blanket amnesty is in a different ball park altogether, which can be proven simply by looking at the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Here is paragraph 2241 from the Catechism. I’ve put in bold the areas McCarrick is ignoring or contradicting:

****The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the *foreigner *in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

The Church respects the prudential decision making authority of a government in regards to making and upholding juridicial conditions for immigration.

Church teaching requires that immigrants must respect the laws of the adopting country and that they should be respectful and grateful of the laws, material and spititual heritage of the country that willingly receives them (i.e. respect and adopt the culture of the country), and that they obey its laws and assist in carrying out the civic burdens of that society. When people raise objections in these areas, simply labeling such concerns as “xenophobia” and “scapegoating” is ignorant at best and dishonest at its worst. McCarrick should know better.

Encouraging illegal immigration such as McCarrick is doing fails on its outset because it undermines the right of the government in the first area, and subsequently all these other issues are not addressed and actually *encoraged *to be ignored.

No my friend,* blanket amnesty* and the complete disregard for a country’s borders is not mandated by Church teaching. And unless such a position addresses the responsibilities of the immigrant and the recognizes the authority of the adoptive country, such a position actually stands in opposition to Church teaching.

Charity is something to be given - not stolen. Robin Hood wouldn’t have been made a saint in the Catholic Church. He would have been labeled a thief.

- - For those who see illegals as criminals…

Illegals, by definition, are criminals. To simply erase the law without addressing the legitimate concerns of the citizens of this country is a mere attempt to appear more “caring” and “good” without the responsibility of having to come up with a solution to the legitimate reasons why the objections and laws exist in the first place.

Oh, and it makes the socialist/athiestic/secular/pro-abort liberal media write nice things about you as well.

Hmmmmm…

-DustinsDad-

 

[Pecheur]

MJE:

This reminds me of the US Bishops in the 1980’s and welfare. Great research was coming out of the Free Congress etc w/ serious and thoughful Catholics re: the harm the system was doing to the American black family and “children having children” etc. but the bishops lined up w/ the tried and failed liberal agenda. The Terry Schiavo case revealed they are not even a force to reckon w/ on such a fundamental issue.

The Cardinals and Bishops have lost most of their credibility. Even the government sanctioned stem cell research in California is because these people no longer have credibiluty. They want licences for illegals, no tax cuts to support illegals, they make a farse out of the child abuse which is still endorsed in some diocese.

We need to support existing laws. And these men need to do their jobs and quit trying for high positions in their political party.

 

[Philip_P]

This is slightly off topic (and more than a bit of a rant), but the practice of people being partisans first and Catholics second, and then having the gall to call it all the same thing, really po’s me.

You can’t simply dismiss what the bishops say because you don’t like their politics. I may disagree with Chaput, but I am REQUIRED to seriously consider his points and use them to inform my conscience. Similarly, you are REQUIRED to seriously consider the points of McCarrick and the rest of the United States bishops. Catholic theology will always cross party lines. God is NOT a member of a political party, and neither is the Church.

You cavalierly dismiss, even ridicule, McCarrick because he doesn’t support your Republican world view. Well you know what? JPII came out agains the Iraq war. That goes against your Republican line. So call him an anti-American, socialist, relavistic liberal. I dare you to.

I never thought of myself as a liberal until I started regularly coming across reasoning such as is displayed here. Well if the bishops are liberals, then so am I, and proudly so.