Catholic Bishops Launch Immigration Reform Campaign

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Philip P:
This is slightly off topic (and more than a bit of a rant), but the practice of people being partisans first and Catholics second, and then having the gall to call it all the same thing, really po’s me.

You can’t simply dismiss what the bishops say because you don’t like their politics. I may disagree with Chaput, but I am REQUIRED to seriously consider his points and use them to inform my conscience. Similarly, you are REQUIRED to seriously consider the points of McCarrick and the rest of the United States bishops. Catholic theology will always cross party lines. God is NOT a member of a political party, and neither is the Church.

You cavalierly dismiss, even ridicule, McCarrick because he doesn’t support your Republican world view. Well you know what? JPII came out agains the Iraq war. That goes against your Republican line. So call him an anti-American, socialist, relavistic liberal. I dare you to.

I never thought of myself as a liberal until I started regularly coming across reasoning such as is displayed here. Well if the bishops are liberals, then so am I, and proudly so.
Well, I pretty much thought of myself as a Democrat until they became the party of baby killing. Why? What is it about baby killing that makes them so adamant? I don’t get it. To me, it is the most cowardly, despicable, evil practice. Because of it, liberalism has lost most of its appeal to me as a political philosophy. And when I think this immigrant invasion we’re in is actually the fruit of all the baby killing, I feel a bit po’d myself…at what liberals have done and are continuing to do to this country. That’s when I decided to be Catholic first and partisan second. But I have to admit, after all these years of proudly voting against Dems, conservatism has kind of grown on me. BTW, I’m with JPII on the Iraqi war. I’m also with him on the baby killing.
 
Philip P:
For those who support the Church’s stance on immigration, here’s some uplifting news. For those who disagree with it, take this as a challenge and opportunity to critically think about this issue.

For everyone, remember that ultimately it’s not about Republicans and Democrats, but about being a leaven to challenge and reform our nation.

The link:

usccb.org/comm/archives/2005/05-117.shtml

(I first saw this in Washington Post, but since not everyone has a subscription to that I’ve linked to the USCCB).
I find it funny how they do this and were not aggressively pursuing pro-life campaign. They remained silent and suffered quietly. They dissent on Vat II, embrace pro-abortion politicans and promote an immagration reform campaign. What a joke that’s hypocripsy. I wish they would stop being cowards, be a shepard and stop avoiding salvation.
 
-miguel, you seem to be saying that because there are 40mm fewer Americans, there are thus 40mm “empty” jobs available. It doesn’t work that way. For instance, if immigrants are working in a hotel, and there were more Americans, there would be more hotels, thus a greater demand for labor at them. There isn’t a set number of jobs that immigrants are taking from Americans, or that would not be there were there more Americans. I also don’t entirely understand why you’re trying to tie this to abortion, as if it were necessary to be anti-immigrant in order to be pro-child. The Church leadership manages to be pro-life, pro-immigrant, anti-death penalty, and anti-war, why can’t we?

In any case, this is all beside the point, because the fact is that we need the labor and the immigrants are providing it. The question is, shall we continue to tolerate an immoral system that exploits human beings, taking their labor and then throwing them to the side when we no longer need them? Surely this is a moral issue crying out for redress.

And as far as immigrants being freeloaders, that’s complete and utter bunk. They give far more than they take. New York City would completely shut down without the labor they provide, as would California and most of the rest of the U.S. Also, social security would be in far worse shape than it is now were it not for immigrants paying into it and never collecting, just to point out one social service they contribute to. Also, for those who are upset about immigrants “taking jobs from hard-working Americans,” I challenge you to go make the trek yourself and work the immigrant life. Make the trek across the deserts and through the fence to the shadow worlds of our cities and farms, work in the manual jobs with no benefits and no security, and then tell me that it’s not hard work. America is big enough for all of us; we should be welcoming people of such courage and work ethic.

Of course, the sticking point for many people is the a-word – amnesty. It’s really a practical matter more than anything. Let’s say we get successful immigrant reform passed, some sort of guest worker program that brings all these laborers out of the shadows, providing us with needed labor and them with needed jobs all under the full protection and regulation of rule of law. What happens to the millions already here? Do we want to spend millions, or even billions, tracking them all down and deporting the very people who we’ll be welcoming right back? How irrational. It makes much more sense to declare a period of amnesty for the immigrants already here to register as official guest workers. During the amnesty period, get the word out through the churches, community centers, employers, shelters, and every other institution that has contact with immigrants. And keep the level of immigration high – I’ve never understood this desire to keep immigration to America low. I understand wanting to keep it sane, orderly, and legal, but why in the world should we want to keep the immigration level artificially low?

Also, regarding my little rant - I am not at all suggesting that it is wrong to vote Republican. I also don’t think it’s wrong to vote Democrat. I think what is wrong is voting BECAUSE a candidate is Rep or Dem. I voted for Kerry, but it’s not like I didn’t think long and hard about all the issues. What it came down to for me is I just don’t really believe Bush will get much done on abortion, and I agree with the dem approach to governing on most other issues. If I thought that Bush had a serious chance with abortion, then I think I would be morally required to vote for him. But it’s not about parties, and I strongly protest dismissing bishops just because they champion a cause that goes against our personal politics.
 
Philip P:
This is slightly off topic (and more than a bit of a rant), but the practice of people being partisans first and Catholics second, and then having the gall to call it all the same thing, really po’s me.
I don’t think that the analysis of McCarrick’s actions was partisan, seeing as it was backed up by quotes from the Catholic Catechism.
You can’t simply dismiss what the bishops say because you don’t like their politics. I may disagree with Chaput, but I am REQUIRED to seriously consider his points and use them to inform my conscience. Similarly, you are REQUIRED to seriously consider the points of McCarrick and the rest of the United States bishops. Catholic theology will always cross party lines. God is NOT a member of a political party, and neither is the Church.
It seems to me that the poster did consider McCarrick’s point of view, and rejected it because what McCarrick was espousing went aginst Catholic teaching as set forth in the CCC.
You cavalierly dismiss, even ridicule, McCarrick because he doesn’t support your Republican world view. Well you know what? JPII came out agains the Iraq war. That goes against your Republican line. So call him an anti-American, socialist, relavistic liberal. I dare you to.
The poster showed how McCarrick’s postion in this issue went against Catholic teaching–it has nothing to do with Republican thinking (and I thought that Bush, who is supporting amnesty, was Republican? So much for party first). The poster seems to have noticed that McCarrick is going against Catholic teaching on this issue, as he has on many other issues, and that McCarrick’s thinking is more in line with political-liberal thinking, and had the fortitude to come right out and say so.

WRT the Iraq war: I tried very hard to find where JPII said anything other than he thought it would be wrong if the two parties didn’t come to a peaceful solution. Can you show me where he said it would be wron for the US to take the action it did?
I never thought of myself as a liberal until I started regularly coming across reasoning such as is displayed here. Well if the bishops are liberals, then so am I, and proudly so.
Just because the US bishops say something doesn’t make it Catholic teaching. I think that we have noticed in other areas that they do not always think through what they are doing.
 
Philip P:
And as far as immigrants being freeloaders, that’s complete and utter bunk. They give far more than they take. New York City would completely shut down without the labor they provide, as would California and most of the rest of the U.S. Also, social security would be in far worse shape than it is now were it not for immigrants paying into it and never collecting, just to point out one social service they contribute to.
Philip you are dead wrong. Illegals consume WAY more in social services than they pay in taxes.I’ll have to find the statistics but it’s billions. You cannot take the ‘value’ of their labor because that doesn’t go into our social service structure. Further many of them do NOT pay taxes or SS.

They are a massive burden on medical care, public schools, and the justice system.

That being said, I do not disagree that the current system is disgraceful and exploitive of both the illegals AND the US taxpayers. Who is benefitting? Employers who pay low wages and don’t pay benefits. Frankly I think we should NAIL these employers as we did in the past. Force them to document ALL employees and force them to pay into the tax and SS system. But many of these folks are way under the radar screen, consuming our social services, driving on our roads, using our public schools and not paying much of anything.

Lisa N
 
Philip P:
miguel, you seem to be saying that because there are 40mm fewer Americans, there are thus 40mm “empty” jobs available. It doesn’t work that way. Actually, that’s not what I said. Re-read my post. The 40 million fewer Americans are not all reflected in the current workforce. For instance, the 1.5 million killed last year won’t show up as missing in the workforce for another 20 years or so. All I’m saying is that abortion has taken a significant chunk out of our own workforce (not to mention contraception), exacerbating the demand for immigrant labor. Europe is in the same boat, only their immigrants are Muslim. And this problem will continue for years to come. If we stopped abortion today, it’s impact on the workforce would still be felt for another 20 years. I don’t know why this is so difficult to comprehend. The politicians have a dilemma. Close the border and risk throwing the economy into recession. Or keep 'em coming and risk being booted out of office by an increasingly frustrated populace. Only to be replaced by politicians who will close the border and throw the economy into recession.
Philip P:
I also don’t entirely understand why you’re trying to tie this to abortion, Cause and effect amigo.
Philip P:
as if it were necessary to be anti-immigrant in order to be pro-child. Huh? What did I say that was anti-immigrant? I’m just trying to explain why so many are here.
Philip P:
…If I thought that Bush had a serious chance with abortion, then I think I would be morally required to vote for him…
This is a chicken and egg kind of thing. How is Bush going to have a serious chance with abortion if he doesn’t get a strong mandate, at least from Catholics. It doesn’t have to be permanent, just long enough for both parties to get the message and fix the problem. This business of half of us Catholics voting for baby killers has to stop. If it doesn’t, the baby killing won’t either.
 
Lisa N:
Philip you are dead wrong. Illegals consume WAY more in social services than they pay in taxes.I’ll have to find the statistics but it’s billions. You cannot take the ‘value’ of their labor because that doesn’t go into our social service structure. Further many of them do NOT pay taxes or SS.

They are a massive burden on medical care, public schools, and the justice system.

That being said, I do not disagree that the current system is disgraceful and exploitive of both the illegals AND the US taxpayers. Who is benefitting? Employers who pay low wages and don’t pay benefits. Frankly I think we should NAIL these employers as we did in the past. Force them to document ALL employees and force them to pay into the tax and SS system. But many of these folks are way under the radar screen, consuming our social services, driving on our roads, using our public schools and not paying much of anything.

Lisa N
100% agree. Very well said. NY would NOT shut down. That’s just fantasy.
 
Philip P:

You can’t simply dismiss what the bishops say because you don’t like their politics. I may disagree with Chaput, but I am REQUIRED to seriously consider his points and use them to inform my conscience. Similarly, you are REQUIRED to seriously consider the points of McCarrick and the rest of the United States bishops. Catholic theology will always cross party lines…
One is required to be obedient to bishops in regards to settled Church teaching on faith and morals. Meddling into political strategy doesn’t fall into this category. The bishops’ Justice for Immigrants campaign sounds more like a suggestion than anything else.

As I’ve said earlier, I already support illegal immigrants. My financial circumstances do not allow me to contribute further to their medical, educational, housing, legal, judicial or other expenses.

In addition, real welfare reform would eliminate the need for cheap labor that comes from outside the U.S. This is where the politicians (not the bishops) should be focusing their strategic resources.
 
I thnk we do embrace immigration in this country and we would just like it to be legal.

I would personally wish that the Bishops would spend more time on the abortion issue.
 
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condan:
In addition, real welfare reform would eliminate the need for cheap labor that comes from outside the U.S. This is where the politicians (not the bishops) should be focusing their strategic resources.
It is laughable that people act like crops weren’t harvested and no one got their lawns mowed prior to the influx of illegals. The reality is that illegals are taking jobs from teens (we all worked in agriculture when we were teens for example) and from unskilled laborers. My mother grew up on a large farm that grew vegetables, poultry and flowers. She said every year they would get a group of ‘hired men’ to do the picking. They were often transient, moving with the various crops. They were however, Americans, not illegals from south of the border. This was a time when there was far MORE agriculture in this country. So it’s not a matter of too much work for too few people. I suspect we have a lot more teens hanging out in the mall during the summer rather than picking strawberries or pulling rye in the wheatfields (the way I earned money for school clothes) mowing lawns or working in the gas station. It wasn’t the dark ages either but in the 1970s

The safety net prevents people from starving if they don’t work. However as you said condon, were there real welfare reform there would be plenty of people who had a sudden inspiration to get work.

Lisa N
 
Philip P:
-Brad and DustinsDad, I’m sure you don’t mean what you said. If McCarrick can be dismissed just because you don’t like his politics, then I can dismiss Chaput since he’s obviously shilling for the Republicans. Come on guys, take off your partisan hats and put on your Catholic ones. It’s ok to disagree with the party line of the man you voted for - I do it all the time – I voted for Kerry, and I oppose measures, positions, and proposals pushed by Democrats. I promise they won’t throw you into Guantanamo.😉
Bishop Chaput is a man of God first and formemost. His politics are influenced by his faith. He will stand for the faith under any and all political circumstances. McCarrick has shown his faith to be influence by his politics on multiple occasions.

It is flabbergasting to me that you are lecturing us to put faith before politics in the same paragraph that you admit to voting for Kerry. Kerry was the essence of those measures that you opposed but you voted for him because you liked his politics more than those Catholic teachings.

If McCarrick and company are being true to doctrinal Catholic teaching on this issue, then where are the references to such teaching? I didn’t dismiss this because of his politics. I dismiss it because it is too vague, because he is NOT a politician, and because he is not defending or promoting Church teaching in this campaign.

It is ok to disagree with the party line of the man you voted for??No it is NOT ok. The fact that you do it all the time suggests a need for inner reflection and anaysis about your convictions.
 
The American Indians had a very poor immigration policy 😦
They let everybody and any body in.


**Would the American Bishops clear up the child abuse problem, **Catholic education problem, liturgy abuse etc. first.
They have too many irons in the fire.
 
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Fitz:
I would personally wish that the Bishops would spend more time on the abortion issue.
And the Catholic politicians receiving communion problem, and the no catechesis problem, and homosexual abuse in the Church problem and the dissent in the seminaries problem, and annulment problem and the…
 
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fix:
And the Catholic politicians receiving communion problem, and the no catechesis problem, and homosexual abuse in the Church problem and the dissent in the seminaries problem, and annulment problem and the…
And the marriage preperation problem, and the fornication problem, and the empty confessional problem, and the losing members to evangelical churches problem, and the liturgical innovation problem and the…
 
I posted the link to the news release of the bishops’ immigration campaign as an FYI and as a discussion opener. This being a mostly conservative site, most posters have taken issue with the bishops’ position. Fair enough, I’ve only argued that the position requires serious consideration, not that you are obliged to agree with it. That’d be a silly argument for a moderate such as myself to make.

There’s a bigger issue than immigration here, though, which we’ve backed in to. I’m referring to the idea that, when politically inconvenient, we can just dismiss the bishops, claiming they’re just being political and do not speak with authentic authority. Not all posters have made this argument. Some have been far more balanced and nuanced, admitting that while the bishops’ position does require serious consideration, you disagree with this on the basis that one must exercise prudential judgment in applying values to concrete policies, and you disagree that these particular policies will have the desired affect.

I actually think this is a very good argument. In fact, it’s the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT I used to justify my vote for Kerry. No Catholic I know who voted for Kerry argued that abortion was right. They questioned, however, whether criminalizing it would give us the results we seek – namely, to transform our culture and end abortion. Furthermore, they questioned whether it was even possible to make abortion illegal. These are questions of prudential judgment. Now, you can claim they were wrong, incorrect, poor judges. But that’s NOT what you have been saying. No, you’ve gone so far as to say they SINNED by voting for Kerry. Again, if the Kerry voters had argued that abortion is not, in fact, wrong, this would be valid. But that’s not what they argued – they argued that in their prudential judgment, the Bush approach to abortion would not actually end abortion.

Surely you can see why this is an important issue, and why it applies not just to abortion, but to every other issue as well. ALL issues are moral issues, and ALL politics are prudential decisions. We have three choices. Either say that we MUST obey ALL Church political positions (as supporters of the “non-negotiable” framework seem to), say that the bishops have NO authority on politics (as those dismissing the McCarrick are doing) or say that the bishops have authority, but ultimately the choice is a prudential choice that each voter must be free to make. I opt for the third route.

By now, we’ve gone pretty far OT from immigration reform, but this is an important issue, so feel free to start a thread if you want to discuss this further. Otherwise we should focus on the merits or demerits of the bishops proposal and stop accusing the bishops of being too political (and in case you missed it, my point with Chaput was NOT that he is truly a “Republican shill,” but that he would be one if the same standards you are applying to McCarrick applied to him. Neither, I believe, is shilling for a party).

BTW, this whole idea that the pushing immigration reform somehow detracts from the work the bishops do in combating abortion is just silly. As if one can’t be simultaneously pro-child, pro-woman, pro-family, and pro-worker. Indeed, I doubt it’s even possible to be authentically pro-life in any other way.
 
The problem is the bishops has done themselves and the faithful a disservice by not catechizing us. Every utterance from the USCCB is not infallible or binding.

We need to discern what is binding and what is a prudential judgment that should be considered, but may be rejected depending on one’s conscience. The bishops churn out so much stuff that most of it will never be properly evaluated. It is not always possible for the laity to know what is authentic and what is agit prop from some subcommitee.
 
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The bishops churn out so much stuff that most of it will never be properly evaluated.
Part of the reason why I posted the link in the first place. Agree or disagree, we’re at least talking about something that would probably have been ignored otherwise. It’s incumbent upon the laity to make the effort to actively engage with our faith. I plan on posting links to further USCCB items I find interesting and noteworthy, and I hope others will be doing the same.

BTW, how exactly do you define “what is authentic and what is agit prop from some subcommitee?” No offense meant, but to non-conservatives, it seems like this often simply translates to authentic=what we line and agitprop=things that go against conservative views. As I mentioned before, I think ALL political decisions are ultimately prudential judgments…
 
Philip P:
Part of the reason why I posted the link in the first place. Agree or disagree, we’re at least talking about something that would probably have been ignored otherwise. It’s incumbent upon the laity to make the effort to actively engage with our faith. I plan on posting links to further USCCB items I find interesting and noteworthy, and I hope others will be doing the same.

BTW, how exactly do you define “what is authentic and what is agit prop from some subcommitee?” No offense meant, but to non-conservatives, it seems like this often simply translates to authentic=what we line and agitprop=things that go against conservative views. As I mentioned before, I think ALL political decisions are ultimately prudential judgments…
A few years ago a subcommitee put out a paper on homosexuality. The bishops did not approve it. Rome had to step in and correct it. That is one example of the bureaucracy taking over.

By authentic I intended to mean a matter of faith that is binding on one’s conscience. By agit prop I meant when bishops meddle in things they have no competence in and people mistake these douments as having magisterial weight and must be obeyed.
 
Philip, is there more to the story? I read the statement and there really isn’t anything to disagree with. I believe we all want just immigration laws and we want people to avail themselves of the law so they can become legal.

I think the disagreement is with respect to the Bishops putting time, effort, money and prayers into an issue that does not seem as pressing as others (respecting life, financial woes from the priest scandal, heretics all over the TV news, priests and bishops running amok in certain areas, attacks on the family) The business of the Church is religion, not law or lobbying efforts.

Frankly our bishop hasn’t said much about abortion or even legal euthanasia which is available in our state. That seems a lot more important than helping illegals cross the border.

Lisa N
 
The link was just to the news release, but there is an entire department of refugee and migration services at the USCCB. There is also a large Pro-Life section. You can see many of the topics and campaigns the USCCB works on at
nccbuscc.org:8765/

and specifically prolife at
nccbuscc.org:8765/query.html?col=&ht=0&qp=&qs=&qc=&pw=100%25&ws=0&la=en&qm=1&si=0&ct=241649156

I think immigration is a moral issue, and so it is perfectly legitimate for the bishops to make a statement on this. One thing a lot of people have said in debates on politics and religion is that there is no room for faith in politics. I strongly disagree. While I am coming at this from a different angle than many on these forums, it is not because I feel that faith should not be involved, but because I feel it is not involved ENOUGH.

I’m a fan of the late Cardinal Bernardin. I think pro-life means more than just abortion, I think it’s an entire culture. Making sure workers are not exploited is being pro-life, making sure children aren’t being aborted is pro-life, and so on. I see no contradiction, and nothing wrong, with bishops speaking out on these issues.

As far as your comment regarding your bishop, certainly it would be good if he spoke out more on abortion. Bishops and clergy should be preaching the consistent ethic of life and Catholic Social teaching in its fullness with more faith and vigor in general. Faith in action is a powerful evangelization tool.
 
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