Catholic Bishops Support Employment Discrimination against Gays

[Santi2]

It’s a bit of a challenge though when he asks me why we’re treated this way.

I appreciate that. But, you must always bear in mind that having a son can only mean that you have not been unaccompanied by Providential graces and gifts, Zoe. So we must also find God’s kindness because it is also a blessing that your shared circumstance and foresight will guide him as he grows up. I wish him the same blessings that I wish for my own.

Now as to the diagnosis - this must be made in accordance with the ICD-10, the World Health Organisation International Classification of Diseases manual version 10.

“Desire” over a chromosomal abnormality sounds odd to me if the former is an elected circumstance and the latter is not. Unless, I’m off track.

I think… I’ve earned my place on the planet. Others differ on that. Some would like to see me in the gutter, where my kind belong. Others see my existence as a threat to their beliefs, so see legislation that would give us some of the human rights they have as an attack.

I fight dirty. I don’t rant and rave, nor engage in florid rhetoric. I show people the facts, give them the information… and let their consciences do the rest.

“In a moral sense, no human being requires the permission of the majority to exist, but in the harsh truth of the real world, they do require acceptance based on understanding in order to thrive and sometimes this acceptance has to be fought for.” -UKIA

 

[Zoe_Brain]

But, you must always bear in mind that having a son can only mean that you have not been unaccompanied by Providential graces and gifts, Zoe.

Oh yes. I’m aware of that. The odds against my son existing are… incalculable.

I got a release from the Hell that is transsexuality. I survived a metamorphosis that is probably usually unsurvivable - unlike all other cases that took years at normal pubertal rates, mine took three months, and I lost a third of my body mass in the process, the metabolic stress nearly killed me.

No other recorded cases of anyone surviving it anyway.

Not a day goes by without me asking myself, “Why me? Why not someone more deserving?”

It’s why I’m here, on this forum. I try to do what I can, to “shape public opinion”, to educate and inform, because I have a naive faith in the essential goodness of people. That few of us are actually evil, we’re just weak, fallible, prone to fall into sin and error.

ENDA will not get to a vote in the Senate. It may not even get to a vote in the House. So it will be at least ten years before there is another conjunction of an overwhelming Democrat majority in both House and Senate, and a Democrat president. Probably 14 years before there’s a realistic chance of passage. It may take longer. In Wisconsin, Gays and Lesbians were given employment protection in 1976. Trans and Intersexed people are still waiting there.

Estimates of the number of fatalities per year caused by the lack of this bill are very rubbery. We can say with confidence that it’s at least 300 per year, but it’s probably more like 1-2,000. That’s just Trans and Intersexed people, there’d be a few Gays too, but less than one a year.

 

[ethereality]

Zoe, skimming through your posts here on page 7, I’m missing some context, but it seems you’re a little too fixated on your body, or the body in general. It seems that you’ve let this unfortunate mentality of “me against the world, with a few rare friends” get to you a little too strongly.

I understand the body, or your body, is or has been a cross for you, to stand out, to have been born with physical problems. But we all have problems, and many (if not most) of us have been born with physical problems of various kinds. Personally, one problem I have is severe myopia and floaters, that daily bother me, and this problem is daily dismissed by others, “wear glasses and learn to deal with the floaters”. My younger brother has been diagnosed with Ménière’s disease, and is essentially deaf in one ear; I can go down the list of people I know who have physical problems, so much so that I marvel when I meet someone who has perfect vision, etc. It is good, I think, to maintain the larger perspective, that this earthly journey isn’t all there is, that our bodies along with our universe await the redemption, rebirth, perfection, glorification, divinization that will come with Jesus’ return, etc.

I haven’t read the letter that sparked this thread, and perhaps the bishops did regrettably misunderstand various biological phenomena, but at the end of the day, we all make mistakes and we’re all in the same boat together. So, rather than be dominated by the mistakes leaders have made, perhaps you might spend more time looking at all the Christians standing around you (including those leaders) in the same position you’re in, trying to live together.

 

[portarica]

The later posts point out a similarity between the issue being discussed and Galileo and heliocenticity.

The whole concept of the church discriminating against gays come from its views on the “disordered” nature of their relationships.That is based upon the concept of God only designing two distinct forms of humans: males and females.

Obviously that is not the case as there are more than two. And to call any form of human as disordered flies in the face of all that Jesus taught.

And in another ironic twist, the highly gay makeup of church clergy is basically ignored and many gay clerics are in positions of power in the church , right up to those serving in Rome in various capacities and they are still are employed.

Peace

 

[ForeverGrace]

As a protestant, I fully support the Bishops. The Framers NEVER intended that government would interfere with the free exercise of religion, nor did they intend for government to establish an official religion.

Some years back, the state of New York tried to make the Salvation Army hire homosexuals in direct opposition to their (Salvation Army) stated beliefs. The Salvation Army DID NOT back down. They were quite happy to relocate to another part of the planet who would appreciate their good and very charitable acts. It seems that New York figured out that they could never replace the work the Salvation Army does for the people of New York so they rescinded their idle threat. It seems that government really can’t provide the love of God with their entitlement programs.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

The Salvation Army DID NOT back down. They were quite happy to relocate to another part of the planet who would appreciate their good and very charitable acts.

I used to collect donations for the Salvation Army.
But they rejected a friend of mine from a homeless shelter, because she was transsexual.

She froze to death on the steps of a Lutheran church two days later, in sub-zero temperatures, where she’d gone to keep out of the freezing wind. The Salvos had room - they just wouldn’t let her in.

It would have been kinder if they’d have just shot her. Her name was Jennifer Gale.

I still collect - and donate. Just not to them any more. It’s not as if there’s a paucity of worthy causes to donate to. The Red Cross. St Vincent de Paul. The Heart Foundation.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

I understand the body, or your body, is or has been a cross for you, to stand out, to have been born with physical problems. But we all have problems, and many (if not most) of us have been born with physical problems of various kinds. Personally, one problem I have is severe myopia and floaters, that daily bother me, and this problem is daily dismissed by others, “wear glasses and learn to deal with the floaters”. My younger brother has been diagnosed with Ménière’s disease, and is essentially deaf in one ear;

Has your brother had his marriage anulled because of his physical condition? Has he been arrested for it? Are there 7 countries in the world that would execute him for having it? Are there places in the USA where he’d be put in a maximum security punishment cell for having it and denied bail, if arrested?

It’s not the body - yes, there’s problems there, but so what. It’s the persecution. Legal and social.

Have nearly half the people with Ménière’s disease been assaulted just for having that in the last 2 years? Have Catholic Bishops spoken out about laws that might protect their employment being an “invasion of privacy”? Have they labelled laws that protect them from being assaulted an “attack on religious freedom”? Have there been calls by a minority of Christian groups for them to be exterminated?

Key survey results:

Received verbal abuse:

* 76 per cent of homosexual males
* 69 per cent of homosexual females
* 92 per cent transgender male to female
* 55 per cent transgender female to male

Physical assault without a weapon:

* 32 per cent of homosexual male
* 15 per cent of homosexual females
* 46 per cent transgender male to female
* 45 per cent transgender female to male

Physical attack with a weapon, knife, bottle or stone:

* 12 per cent of homosexual males
* 6 per cent of homosexual females
* 38 per cent transgender male to female
* 9 per cent transgender female to male
* 12 per cent other

Source - AAP/Speaking Out: Stopping Homophobic and Transphobic Abuse in Queensland.

 

[ForeverGrace]

A couple of years ago, The GL Alliance demanded that the Christrian Dating service, e-Harmony allow them to participate in their services. This is one of those things that makes one wonder why in the world would a Gay person or Transgendered (or whatever the new term is) person would want to be paired up with Bible believing Christians? It soon became clear. They didn’t want to be paired up with a Christian, they just wanted to cause trouble for Christians by forcing them to pay huge legal bills all to protect their right to conduct their business in a way that hurt no one.

We see this same scenario being played out over and over again. If a person wants to be gay, then so be it. But it’s wrong to disrupt the legitimate course of business for others just for the sake of mean-spiritedness.

The Bishops letter to Congress was humble and explained their position clearly. They did not use their letter as pulpit to damn someone to hell, they simply said they wanted to maintain the right to practice their faith within the confines of Holy Scripture and without interference from government which BTW, they have EVERY right to do based on the first amendment.

I don’t hate gay people. We are called upon to love everyone and to treat them with kindness. But we also required by scripture to keep ourselves separate from the secular world in the areas where scripture is clear. This isn’t even debateable. The Bible is clear that GOD defines homosexuality as a detestible sin. Those are the words from the Bible, not mine.

There are places that call themselves churches who openly accept gays. They have even decided that David and Jonathon were Gay lovers. Some people will do anything to call what is unholy, holy. The MCC has also decided that Jesus supported pedophilia. Gays don’t want to work for the Catholic Church, they want to disrupt it.

You can list a million studies that will support the belief that this type of behavior is anything but abnormal, but you’ll not trump the word of God. God is the author of science, anthropology, neuropsychology and on and on.

We all want the same thing. You want to be left alone to practice your life in a way that meets your needs, and we want the same thing. There is no reason to run from cause to cause with the only goal being to** force **others to accept what they cannot accept according to scripture.

I hope you will find some peace because I’m quite sure that Jesus loves you and wants you to have a life that is spiritually fulfilling.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

The Bishops letter to Congress was humble and explained their position clearly. They did not use their letter as pulpit to damn someone to hell, they simply said they wanted to maintain the right to practice their faith within the confines of Holy Scripture and without interference from government which BTW, they have EVERY right to do based on the first amendment.

They argued that people like me - people who are not Homosexual, just born with a distressing congenital medical condition - should be denied employment protection.

Even though we have a 40% unemployment rate in the best of times.

The reasons? Because to grant us the same rights they have as Catholics would violate others rights of “privacy” and “association”.

In addition to ENDA’s protection of same-sex conduct, its threat to religious liberty, and its contribution to the cause of same-sex “marriage,” there are other obstacles to its passage. The bill’s treatment of “gender identity,” which was not in the 2007 bill, would have an adverse effect on privacy and associational rights of others.

Exactly the same arguments that were used against legislation that forbade segregation. That forbade separate restrooms for “whites” and “coloreds”. Exactly the same. Same wording. Same reasoning. Nothing to do with Religion - they even say that explicitly.

If that is the Catholic Faith today, as you appear to claim, as do the Catholic Bishops, I fear you have lost your way.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

But we also required by scripture to keep ourselves separate from the secular world in the areas where scripture is clear. This isn’t even debateable. The Bible is clear that GOD defines homosexuality as a detestible sin. Those are the words from the Bible, not mine.

True. No doubt about it. It is an abomination.
[BIBLEDRB]Leviticus 18:22[/BIBLEDRB]
As is eating oysters or prawns.
[BIBLEDRB]Leviticus 11:10[/BIBLEDRB]
Or wearing polyester-cotton
[BIBLEDRB]Leviticus 19:19[/BIBLEDRB]

I only let my son read this book under strict adult supervision. I don’t approve of lurid pornographic accounts of rape, murder and dismemberment. Women being left to the tender mercies of brutal gang-rapists by their partners, purely to protect themselves. And then when they crawling back to the house, being refused sanctuary by those who safely slept as they were violated.
[BIBLEDRB]Judges 19:22-29[/BIBLEDRB]

I’ve read your Holy Scripture you see. Cover to cover, many times. Along with the lurid pornography, It has so much good in. Matthew 22:39-40. 1 Corinthians 13. Just read everything in the light of these two passages, and a lot that seems complex becomes simple and good. No need for cruelty. Here they are, though I’m sure you know them.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 22:39-40[/BIBLEDRB]
“On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.”

And if in implementing the rules and regulations, dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s to the nth degree, if in legalistically, Pharisaically following the letter and ignoring the spirit, you break either of these commandments - *you’ve screwed up. * As have the Catholic Bishops.

It’s not enough to know the law inside and out, back to front. I may be a Rocket Scientist, knowing all manner of things, an expert in the science of gender and sex, evolutionary computation, genetic algorithms, safety-critical engineering, I may speak half a dozen languages and be working on a PhD… BUT… if I lack Charity, if I don’t act with kindness, it’s all meaningless. If I donate all I earn (as I have done this year) to worthy causes, but do so out of pride in my own sickening sanctimony, I’ve lost the plot.
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 13[/BIBLEDRB]

Charity was missing from the Bishops’ letter. It was casuistry, mendacity, and excuses.

I’ve really got to work on the “Not provoked to anger” bit when it comes to the Salvation Army. No point in quoting scripture if you don’t live it too. Not as regards the Catholic Bishops though. For them… I’m sad. They have hard jobs, deep responsibilities, but I think to get to that level of the hierarchy, they must become political. They must compromise. And be compromised.

They’ve lost their way, ForeverGrace. I’m no Christian, let alone Catholic, but for those that are… pray for them. They mean well. They just don’t listen to the consciences often enough. Too immersed in the secular world of politics.

But we also required by scripture to keep ourselves separate from the secular world in the areas where scripture is clear.

Scripture such as Matthew 22:35-40 (for those who have faith, 39-40 for others). 1 Corinthians 13.

 

[Dale_M]

A couple of years ago, The GL Alliance demanded that the Christrian Dating service, e-Harmony allow them to participate in their services.

The lawsuit against e-Harmony was filed by the State of New Jersey.
articles.sfgate.com/2010-01-27/bay-area/17836024_1_eharmony-lesbian-sexual-orientation

I disagree with the lawsuit, and I disagree with the court ruling. But I think you are misremembering some of the facts about the case.

The MCC has also decided that Jesus supported pedophilia.

I am highly skeptical about that claim. Would you care to provide a credible source which supports it?

 

[Brendan]

Churches are exempt from this law, it doesn’t apply to them.

Do you believe that includes Church schools and hosptials?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Do you believe that includes Church schools and hosptials?

Religous organizations. That covers schools, hospitals, mosques, synagogues. The operative term is 501c3…

 

[aspawloski4th]

I used to collect donations for the Salvation Army.
But they rejected a friend of mine from a homeless shelter, because she was transsexual.

She froze to death on the steps of a Lutheran church two days later, in sub-zero temperatures, where she’d gone to keep out of the freezing wind. The Salvos had room - they just wouldn’t let her in.

It would have been kinder if they’d have just shot her. Her name was Jennifer Gale.

I still collect - and donate. Just not to them any more. It’s not as if there’s a paucity of worthy causes to donate to. The Red Cross. St Vincent de Paul. The Heart Foundation.

It might high time that every documented incodence like this should be compiled in to one data base and presented to the poblic at large to show we are not just whistling Dixie!

 

[aperture]

It might high time that every documented incodence like this should be compiled in to one data base and presented to the poblic at large to show we are not just whistling Dixie!

texascivilrightsreview.org/phpnuke/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1309

 

[aspawloski4th]

texascivilrightsreview.org/phpnuke/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1309

Thankyou. Thats a good start. Ill read some more tomorrow. I would of now, but I have a nasty migrain going on. Bed time!

 

[ForeverGrace]

The lawsuit against e-Harmony was filed by the State of New Jersey.
articles.sfgate.com/2010-01-27/bay-area/17836024_1_eharmony-lesbian-sexual-orientation

I disagree with the lawsuit, and I disagree with the court ruling. But I think you are misremembering some of the facts about the case.

I am highly skeptical about that claim. Would you care to provide a credible source which supports it?

Dale, You’ll find that I don’t engage in slanderous defamation. If I say I have read something from a source, I have. It’s possible that I may not remember every fact, because I am fallible. But I didn’t misremember anything here.

Read it for yourself: Notice how the MCC has decided the greek word pais is used in a way that could apply to a teenager.

wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/gay_couple.html

You can read all about how these folks have corrupted holy scripture to mean something other than what it does so they can justify their sin. They claim that David and Jonathon might have been gay lovers, etc… and seriously ad nauseum. This is a shameful twisting of God’s word.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

You can read all about how these folks have corrupted holy scripture to mean something other than what it does so they can justify their sin. They claim that David and Jonathon might have been gay lovers, etc… and seriously ad nauseum. This is a shameful twisting of God’s word.

No need to twist it. Just quote verbatim.

http://www.intersexualite.org/Marriage_kirk6.jpg

[BIBLEDRB]Ruth 1:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]

I’m sure though that their relationship was as Platonic as that of the Blessed Cardinal Newman and Ambrose St.John.

Besides - it’s the Catholic Church that insists that priests aren’t paedophiles, they’re ephebephiles isn’t it, when they rape 12 year old boys in the Roman (Army) tradition?

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 8:5-13[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 7:1-10[/BIBLEDRB]

“Servant” is a bowdlerisation.

To say that Jesus supported paedophilia - or ephebephilia - just because he healed an officer’s boyfriend is like saying he supported prostitution, loan-sharking and treachery, just because he consorted with prostitutes, loan-sharks and quislings.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

The first fruits of the Catholic Bishops Letter:

The non-discrimination bill known as GENDA died in the Senate Judiciary Committee this morning to the chagrin of state Sen. Tom Duane, who is sponsoring the legislation with Assemblyman Richard Gottfried, a fellow Manhattan Democrat.

The legislation, is described as “AN ACT to amend the executive law, the civil rights law and the education law, in relation to prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity or expression; and to amend the penal law and the criminal procedure law, in relation to including offenses regarding gender identity or expression within the list of offenses subject to treatment as hate crimes.”

All 11 Republicans on the Judiciary Committee voted down the bill, plus Democratic state Sen. Ruben Diaz Sr. of the Bronx.
…
"Senate Dems say two Republicans on the committee, Sens. Andrew Lanza of Staten Island and George Maziarz of Niagara, had previously committed to supporting the measure, only to vote against it in committee.

Note that the “unjust discrimination” (as the Catholic Bishops put it) against Gays had been removed by equivalent legislation 8 years earlier. This was solely for Intersexed and Trans people, who the Catholic Bishops don’t consider are being discriminated against unjustly. Just discriminated against.

 

[aspawloski4th]

The first fruits of the Catholic Bishops Letter:

Note that the “unjust discrimination” (as the Catholic Bishops put it) against Gays had been removed by equivalent legislation 8 years earlier. This was solely for Intersexed and Trans people, who the Catholic Bishops don’t consider are being discriminated against unjustly. Just discriminated against.

Well if this **** keeps up I maybe looking for a way to leave this country. Theres a warped idea of what freedom is when I’m not free to be myself without loosing means of living. When that day comes where Ill be able to leave Ill shake the dust off my feet.