Catholic Cardinal Pushes for Condoms

[Julianna]

The odds in Russian Roulette are five to one. If you play it often enough, you will definitely wind up with a hole in your head. (If you don’t believe me, you’re welcome to try.)

The same could be said for NFP.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ok, lets discuss why your use of statistics is invalid.
These events are not independent. It is not like rolling a dice.

Are you saying there is no failure rate for condoms?

Or are you saying that with a failure rate, the odds of a person experiencing a failure at some time does not increase with increasing useage?

Secondly, people do not live a sufficiently long time for the probability to approach 1.

Feel free to cite any reliable authority that shows a 100% rate for condoms.

Look at the failure rate for sex workers (who are experienced at using condoms) and the HIV prevalence in sex workers eg in Nevada and the Netherlands.

Look at the failure rate for condoms in the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea. With prostitution being legal there, we kept a bowl of condoms at the gate, and every soldirer leaving Camp Casey had to take one. We also had monthly mandatory training in VD preventioin.

And we had the highest VD rate in the Army.

 

[Julianna]

That’s begging the question tho. They did not interpret it as banning contraception.

Perhaps Onan found it disgusting to have sex with his sister-in-law. If the all the laws of the “OLD” Testament were obeyed verbatim, we would still be using animals for sacrafice. It’s time to move on. AIDS is death. How can a married couple be fruitful and multiply…if they don’t have sex. If one of them has AIDS and they “both” decide to use a condom to prevent a child from being born with AIDS…then that is up to the “privacy” of the couple.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Are you saying there is no failure rate for condoms?
Or are you saying that with a failure rate, the odds of a person experiencing a failure at some time does not inurease with increasing useage.

You are saying the risk of HIV transmission remains constant, just as the “risk” of rolling a 6 on a die remains the same. That is not a valid assumption.

Feel free to cite any reliable authority that shows a 100% rate for condoms.

A straw man argument. See my previous posts and links.

Look at the failure rate for condoms in the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea. With prostitution being legal there, we kept a bowl of condoms at the gate, and every soldirer leaving Camp Casey had to take one. We also had monthly mandatory training in VD preventioin.
And we had the highest VD rate in the Army.

Proof by example?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Also you forget that a strategy that can be used for discordant couples (one with HIV, one without) is that when there is a condom failure chemoprophylaxis can be used.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You are saying the risk of HIV transmission remains constant, just as the “risk” of rolling a 6 on a die remains the same. That is not a valid assumption

Quote the contrary – your position seems to be “the odds of failure remain the same for each use.”.

Which no one denies. But with enough useage, the odds of failure at some time become very high.

A straw man argument. See my previous posts and links.

Okay – feel free to post a reliable cite that shows a 99% non-failure rate.

Proof by example?

The same guy who posted this:

Look at the failure rate for sex workers (who are experienced at using condoms) and the HIV prevalence in sex workers eg in Nevada and the Netherlands.

Is attacking me for using “proof by example?”

Have I stepped on your rice bowl here? You seem to be taking this awfully personally.

 

[Julianna]

You are saying the risk of HIV transmission remains constant, just as the “risk” of rolling a 6 on a die remains the same. That is not a valid assumption.

A straw man argument. See my previous posts and links.

Proof by example?

jack…very few will admit to being human. If the risk factor for STD’s were high back in the day…why did they hand out condoms to the soldiers? If one is morally against contraception…maybe he would NOT take a condom. But then again…fighting human nature is really tough.

Again…and again…the proof is there on Sunday. The one and two child families. It’s not rocket science. For us to to beat each other up on these boards will not change the 96% of Catholics who are contracepting…HIV or no HIV. It seems some of those in the heirarchy of the church…see the “reality” before them. I believe their intent is NOT to go against church teaching for “ha ha’s” sake, but to end human suffering and death to the innocent through modern methods.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The same could be said for NFP.

Huh?

Has someone been telling you that NFP with an HIV-positive partner will protect you against AIDS?

 

[jack_hawkins]

But with enough useage, the odds of failure at some time become very high.

with respect, you can’t say that until you know the seroconversion rate per year - the figures I have seen (and posted/linked to above) are as high as 95% protection (relative to the unprotected seroconversion rate) per year. this will differ depending on which partner is HIV positive

Is attacking me for using “proof by example?”

Have I stepped on your rice bowl here? You seem to be taking this awfully personally.

Those figures have been gained from large numbers in proper studies - they have confidence intervals etc etc

I don’t think I’m taking it personally - I have seen many HIV patients inc in South Africa, so I probably feel more passionately than some. I apologise if I seem like I’m attacking anyone personally. I just feel for those brothers and sisters in Christ and humanity in Africa who are seeing their nations ravaged by this modern plague.

I love the Catholic Church, hence the reason I will be joining it at Easter Vigil. I just want to see the right thing being done.

Apologies if I have been over-aggressive - I probably did get carried away
Yours in Christ
John

 

[Julianna]

Huh?

Has someone been telling you that NFP with an HIV-positive partner will protect you against AIDS?

vern, you noted that the use of condoms was like playing Russian Roulette…evidently you have never heard of NFP…aka Vatican Roulette. That is what I was referring to.

 

[vern_humphrey]

with respect, you can’t say that until you know the seroconversion rate per year - the figures I have seen (and posted/linked to above) are as low as 5% per year. this will differ depending on which partner is HIV positive

And that’s better than 0% per year?

Many of those with AIDS believed condoms would protect them – albeit they wanted to believe it. But to tell people that sex with HIV-positive partners does not put them at grave risk is very close to criminal negligence at best.

Those figures have been gained from large numbers in proper studies - they have confidence intervals etc etc

And they show using condoms is a safe thing and one can go blythely on having sex with multiple partners?

I don’t think I’m taking it personally - I have seen many HIV patients inc in South Africa, so I probably feel more passionately than some. I apologise if I seem like I’m attacking anyone personally. I just feel for those brothers and sisters in Christ and humanity in Africa who are seeing their nations ravaged by this modern plague.

Then why tell them that which is not true?

I love the Catholic Church, hence the reason I will be joining it at Easter Vigil. I just want to see the right thing being done.

Apologies if I have been over-aggressive
Yours in Christ
John

And you have my apologies – but I stand by the position that telling people that using condoms is “safe” sex is simply wrong. The only safe sex is between uninfected couples in faithful marriages.

 

[mikew262]

**Agreed. It involved him not wanting sleep with his sister-in-law to give his brother a child according to an ancient law. To connect it with contraception being wrong is a bit of a stretch **

That Onan’s sin was wasting his seed, is the constant interpretation of the Church since the days of the Fathers.
He wasted his seed that one time, and God slew him for it.
If it were really all about his Levirate responsibilities, he could have simply had sex with her at another time in the future and not wasted his seed, and fulfilled his duties at that later date.

Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

To me it’s pretty clear that he was slain by God for not obeying the law at the time and sleep with his sister-in-law to produce a child for his brother.

 

[vern_humphrey]

vern, you noted that the use of condoms was like playing Russian Roulette…evidently you have never heard of NFP…aka Vatican Roulette. That is what I was referring to.

I know what NFP is, and you seem to have a problem with it. But how does that relate to the issue of using condoms to prevent AIDS?

 

[Brendan]

vern, you noted that the use of condoms was like playing Russian Roulette…evidently you have never heard of NFP…aka Vatican Roulette. That is what I was referring to.

FYI, “Vatican Roullette” was a term that refered to the Rythum Method, calendar based contraception. That is a completely different method than NFP.

NFP is a sympto-thermic method of determining ovulation and is scientifically accurate with success rates equal or better than condoms or the Pill. (97.8%)
billings-centre.ab.ca/general/bc_evi.htm

It also has the unique advantage of being usable in aiding conception if the couple is having difficulties doing so.

So, if you are going to disparage something, try and get the term right.

 

[mikew262]

NFP is a sympto-thermic method of determining ovulation and is scientifically accurate with success rates equal or better than condoms or the Pill. (97.8%)
billings-centre.ab.ca/general/bc_evi.htm

97.8% if done perfectly. I can provide website with that stat if you’d like (once I find it again).

 

[Brendan]

Again…and again…the proof is there on Sunday. The one and two child families. It’s not rocket science. For us to to beat each other up on these boards will not change the 96% of Catholics who are contracepting…HIV or no HIV. It seems some of those in the heirarchy of the church…see the “reality” before them. I believe their intent is NOT to go against church teaching for “ha ha’s” sake, but to end human suffering and death to the innocent through modern methods.

Julianna,

Human Nature being what it is, there will be certain men who beat their wifes.

The Church could do one of two things. First it could promote the use of boxing gloves. Imaging Father saying to a parishoner “Ya’ know, you really shouldn’t beat your wife, but we recognize that sometimes, you just can’t control your urges. So when you can’t really control yourself, just strap on these Everlasts. It will reduce the chance you will injure your wife”

Or the Church could take the moral high road and condem all wifebeating. Of course, there will be some who do not listen.

Should the Church contine to take the High Road and condemn all wifebeating, or should it just face reality and issue boxing gloves.

Saying that condoms are a ‘cure’ for reality of AIDS is like saying boxing gloves are a ‘cure’ for the reality of spouse abuse, or that bulletproof vests are a ‘cure’ for the reality of gang violence.

 

[nomolos]

People do we not realize that HIV/STD’S are God punishment for sexual immorality. God does not punish we have Jesus, right but if you follow his will God has no need to punish. Our lady of Fatima, said God punishment for his people being evil was war, she said if you were to pray WW1 would have never happen, they did not take the advice what happen WW1 started. Was ther not a individual in the Old Testament that got punished for spilling his seed, so his dead brother now his wife not get pregnant.

 

[Nohome]

Fine, so am I.

And I will now presume you are well educated to actually know the term.

And maybe you can explain why you ‘chuckled’ at earlier.

I chuckled because you were talking about gas molecules premeating a latex membrane. You gave the example of a balloon.

Helium has a diameter of around 3.1 A, where the HIV structure is around 10 - 18 nm, approximately 45,000 times larger. That’s like saying my car will sink in the new parking lot I designed with permeable concrete. As an engineer, I’m sure you could find some humor in that too. It would be like shoving black birds through a screened window!

My admittedly flippant remark about a rubber band was a joke. Since a condom is a cylinder, the cross section is a circle, hence a rubber band.

Now that I explained my chuckle, I eagerly await your explanation of the engineering term “permable cross section”, which I can only assume was a typographical error.

Nohome

 

[Brendan]

97.8% if done perfectly. I can provide website with that stat if you’d like (once I find it again).

And the stats on condom prevention are only valid if done correctly, or for the Pill if it’s taken regularly.

That’s why there are comparative statistics. So we can compare Apples to Apples.

 

[mikew262]

Saying that condoms are a ‘cure’ for reality of AIDS is like saying boxing gloves are a ‘cure’ for the reality of spouse abuse, or that bulletproof vests are a ‘cure’ for the reality of gang violence.

Not sure if anybody (at least not me) is saying condoms are a cure for AIDS, but I’d say it’s an effective aid (sorry) in preventing AIDS.