Catholic Cardinal Pushes for Condoms

[Nohome]

It is a forum committed to the study and advancement of Catholicism.

I think this debate will advance Catholicism, obviously, others here agree.

I don’t agree with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But I would not go on a Mormon forum and attack their beliefs. That would be both arrogant and counter-productive.

Nobody is attacking you or your beliefs. I have said, several times that the RCC may teach whatever she see fit.

If you are here merely for entertainment, then you cannot claim to be debating honestly, now can you?

Because I disagree with you I’m here for entertainment? Vern, you’ve got to lighten up.

Nohome

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think this debate will advance Catholicism, obviously, others here agree.

You list yourself as “a former Catholic” and claim to be advancing Catholicism?

Nobody is attacking you or your beliefs. I have said, several times that the RCC may teach whatever she see fit.

You are attacking the Church’s teachings. And the term “RCC” is generally considered derogatory. Would you go on a Black forum and use the “N” word?

Because I disagree with you I’m here for entertainment? Vern, you’ve got to lighten up.

Did you not post this?

Sheesh, what a yawning festival that would be!

 

[nomolos]

It is a forum committed to the study and advancement of Catholicism.

I don’t agree with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But I would not go on a Mormon forum and attack their beliefs. That would be both arrogant and counter-productive.

If you are here merely for entertainment, then you cannot claim to be debating honestly, now can you?

Was it Pope Leo “The smoke of the devil has entered”.???
If not for us, then you are against us, any kingdom divided will not prosper.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Was it Pope Leo “The smoke of the devil has entered”.???
If not for us, then you are against us, any kingdom divided will not prosper.

And anyone who thinks the Catholic Church will prosper if it abandons its traditional teaching and “gets with the times” has only to look at the disaster that has overtaken the Episcopal church.

 

[Nohome]

You list yourself as “a former Catholic” and claim to be advancing Catholicism?

Born and raised Catholic. I attend Mass regularly, way more often than many so-called catholics. I call myself a former Catholic inrecognition that I reject some teachings of the faith. Am I disqualified from Catholic debate? If so, ignore me.

You are attacking church teaching.

Questioning it.

And the term “RCC” is generally considered derogatory. Would you go on a Black forum and use the “N” word?

Oh please, now you are just being silly. Is CAF offensive to this forum? Does the World Health Organization take to the streets when we say WHO? You are just being petty because you have totally blown the debate in this thread.

Did you not post this?

Yes, what was wrong with that?

Nohome

 

[Dale_M]

We even have a Cardinal pushing for the use of condoms

Actually, quite a few cardinals and bishops have suggested or argued that condoms should be permitted for HIV prevention.
catholicsforchoice.org/topics/hivaids/bishopssupportcondoms.asp

Pope Benedict even asked the Pontifical Council for Health Pastoral Care and other scientists and theologians to study the issue and write a report for his consideration.

The first draft was completed in November, 2006. I haven’t heard anything about it since then.

 

[Nohome]

Actually, quite a few cardinals and bishops have suggested or argued that condoms should be permitted for HIV prevention.

Here is a very recent news story that says as much:

cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/23/health/main608255.shtml

Nohome

 

[Nohome]

Argue away, but be sure to call it what it is- a *protest. *Catholics have tolerated this for long enough not to have been persuded yet.

And yet the majority of Catholics in Kenya have been convinced.

A report released by the Steadman Group indicates that Catholics more than any other faith group support the use of condoms for contraception and preventing sexually transmitted diseases, especially HIV/AIDS.

kenyanewsnetwork.com/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=6&num=807

Nohome

 

[fix]

Actually, quite a few cardinals and bishops have suggested or argued that condoms should be permitted for HIV prevention.
catholicsforchoice.org/topics/hivaids/bishopssupportcondoms.asp

Pope Benedict even asked the Pontifical Council for Health Pastoral Care and other scientists and theologians to study the issue and write a report for his consideration.

The first draft was completed in November, 2006. I haven’t heard anything about it since then.

There will always be dissent in the Church including cardinals. None of it makes it right. Anything called Catholics for choice is not Catholic, btw.

 

[fix]

I’ll repeat what I said earlier, “the Church needs to revisit it”.

I’m not advocating necessarily dropping it’s ban against contraception all together, but in certain instances, where contraception has been proven to ease disease and suffering in 1 way or another, then it needs to be revisited.

She “revisits” things all the time. What cannot happen is an intrinsically wrong action becoming right. Without being sarcastic should She revisit the teaching on racism? Why always the call to revisit sexual issues?

 

[Dale_M]

Catholics for choice is not Catholic, btw.

I hesitated posting the link, because I disagree with the organization. But the list they put together is true, and is more complete than the list I was cobbling together on my own.

fix:

There will always be dissent in the Church including cardinals. None of it makes it right.

Dissent by itself doesn’t make a teaching false, but it does suggest that the issue will be revisited. And since Pope Benedict asked for a study of the issue, I think he will be making statement on HIV and condoms at some point in the future.

fix:

Why always the call to revisit sexual issues?

I’m not sure what else you are referring to, but this thread is about a world-wide pandemic which is fatal and incurable.

 

[Dale_M]

I hesitated posting the link, because I disagree with the organization. But the list they put together is true, and is more complete than the list I was cobbling together on my own.

Dissent by itself doesn’t make a teaching false, but it does suggest that the issue will be revisited. And since Pope Benedict asked for a study of the issue, I think he will be making statement on HIV and condoms at some point in the future.

fix:

Why always the call to revisit sexual issues?

Because there is a world-wide health crisis which is fatal and incurable.

 

[fix]

Dissent by itself doesn’t make a teaching false, but it does suggest that the issue will be revisited. And since Pope Benedict asked for a study of the issue, I think he will be making statement on HIV and condoms at some point in the future.

I found this:

Church ‘will not budge one inch’ on issue of condom use, says Cardinal Lopez Trujillo

Cardinal Lopez Trujillo said Pope Benedict XVI has not ordered any studies about modifying the prohibition on condom use. “As a dicastery we do not have any instruction or any indication to the contrary, to carry out a study about something new with regards to condoms,” he stated.

The Colombian prelate said Cardinal Martini “should explain how the condom prevents AIDS if it is true he said it is a lesser evil.”

The Church believes the only way to truly combat AIDS, Cardinal Lopez Trujillo said, is through fidelity and chastity, which are the only morally acceptable means. Contraception, the Church teaches, damages the integrity of the full gift of self, which is intrinsic to the sexual act.

Dissent, especially public, may well be a source of scandal.

 

[fix]

I’m not sure what else you are referring to, but this thread is about a world-wide pandemic which is fatal and incurable.

Yes, and the Church has spoken to that issue. There are all types of serious problems that are never called to be revisited by those who constantly ask for dialogue.

 

[Dale_M]

I found this:

Cardinal Lopez Trujillo said Pope Benedict XVI has not ordered any studies about modifying the prohibition on condom use.

And yet he is contradicted a few months later:

An “exhaustive” Vatican study requested by Pope Benedict XVI on condom use in HIV prevention is awaiting a response from the church’s doctrinal office and the pope, a senior Vatican official said.

Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan, head of the Pontifical Council for Health Care Ministry, said his office handed in “a large study” of almost 200 pages to the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and that it is “hoping (the congregation) and the Holy Father say what is (best) concerning this argument.”

The cardinal spoke in response to journalists’ questions during a Nov. 21 press conference about an upcoming Vatican meeting on the church’s pastoral approach to treating infectious diseases.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0606640.htm

 

[pnewton]

She “revisits” things all the time. What cannot happen is an intrinsically wrong action becoming right. Without being sarcastic should She revisit the teaching on racism? Why always the call to revisit sexual issues?

I think it is not the sexual aspect, but the medical issue that has raised new concerns. The Church will always need to be redefining and adjusting to some fields, like technology and bioethics. In the modern world, every year brings new challenges and questions that did not exist in the previous generation.

But the one thing we do not need is a single cardinal revisiting, redefininig and changing moral teaching. The collective wisdom of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, is needed.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m not sure what else you are referring to, but this thread is about a world-wide pandemic which is fatal and incurable.

And it is a world-wide pandemic because of the people who spread it.

“Patient Zero,” the Canadian airline pilot who is thought to have introduced AIDS into the US was said to stand over his sex partners afterwards, show them his Karposki’s Sarcoma, and taunt them, telling them they now had the same disease he had.

 

[fix]

And yet he is contradicted a few months later:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0606640.htm

Perhaps I missed it but does that link say the Pope will actually make a statement on the subject?

I ask because a few months before the same cardinal says:

“We are in the first stage,” the 73-year-old cardinal said. “This study is promoting a dialogue only at the level of the Holy See and it is not finished yet. Once it’s finished, will there be a document? There might or might not be. To issue a document is not proper to this dicastery. That it is or is not issued by another dicastery depends on the Holy Father.”
zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=88001

 

[fix]

I think it is not the sexual aspect, but the medical issue that has raised new concerns. The Church will always need to be redefining and adjusting to some fields, like technology and bioethics. In the modern world, every year brings new challenges and questions that did not exist in the previous generation.

But the one thing we do not need is a single cardinal revisiting, redefininig and changing moral teaching. The collective wisdom of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, is needed.

I agree, my point is these genital sexual issues always call for revisiting by folks HIV or not.

Also cardinals, and others, know how to play politics.

 

[hasikelee]

Let’s be honest here. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY says “a condom will protect you”. I dare you to find one health agency that says so. The common message is that they reduce the risk of infection.

Nohome

Om my gosh. C’mon, I haven’t met one young adult or teenager in all my counseling, protesting and general school/work life that believes a condom only reduces the risk.

You’ve got to be kidding me. People these days are so naive and unknowledgeable in science and reasoning that you can’t even give them a statistic. I told one girl at my work that condoms only possible reduce the risk of HIV, not prevent it entirely and she couldn’t beleive it. Thought I was tripping on a rainbow.

Maybe in your small community of math and science minded professionals do you find a segment of the population that pays attention to facts. Seems the rest of the world believes the little commercials on tv and the counselors at school who pass out condoms with lollipops and cards that say “i saved a life.”

Nohome, if you had AIDS, would you engage in sexual intercourse with your uninfected spouse?