Catholic Cardinal says we no longer need Jesus

[excatholic]

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999

** Potential Pope Declares Jesus Is NotThe Only Way!**

** Cardinal Francis Arinze, who’s considered a possible successor to Pope John Paul II, has denied Jesus is the only way to heaven. In a recent interview the pope’s spirited 66 year-old deputy for outreach to other religions was asked, “So was Jesus wrong when he said he was the way, the truth and the life?” Arinze responed, “If a person were to push what you said a little further and say that if you’re not a Christian you’re not going to heaven, we’d regard that person as a fundamentalist…and theologically wrong. I met in Pakistan a Muslim. He had a wonderful concept of the Koran. We were like two twins that had known one another from birth. And I was in admiration of this man’s wisdom. I think that man will go to heaven. There was a Buddhist in Kyoto, in Japan. This man, a good man, open, listening, humble–I was amazed. I listened to his works of wisdom and said to myself, 'The grace of God is working in this man.” The interviewer then repeated the question, “So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?” “Expressly, yes [he laughs with the audience].” (Dallas Morning News, 3/20/99) Read John 14:6 and Acts 4:12**

Council of Trent 1545-1564

CANON lI.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.

So let me get this straight, anyone can get to heaven and we don’t need Jesus to get there. I am anathema (damned or condemned) because I cant swallow transubstantiation, no pun intended.

To anyone who relies upon the RCC for salvation know this. John 14:5-6 says “5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

[MrS]

And theologically the Cardinal is correct.

Do you think old testament figures knew Jesus… so are any of them in heaven?

Did you come to this forum today only to post this thread that you apparently don’t understand?

Or did some one send you ?

 

[WBB]

excatholic:

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999

Potential Pope Declares Jesus Is NotThe Only Way!

Cardinal Francis Arinze, who’s considered a possible successor to Pope John Paul II, has denied Jesus is the only way to heaven. In a recent interview the pope’s spirited 66 year-old deputy for outreach to other religions was asked, “So was Jesus wrong when he said he was the way, the truth and the life?” Arinze responed, “If a person were to push what you said a little further and say that if you’re not a Christian you’re not going to heaven, we’d regard that person as a fundamentalist…and theologically wrong. I met in Pakistan a Muslim. He had a wonderful concept of the Koran. We were like two twins that had known one another from birth. And I was in admiration of this man’s wisdom. I think that man will go to heaven. There was a Buddhist in Kyoto, in Japan. This man, a good man, open, listening, humble–I was amazed. I listened to his works of wisdom and said to myself, 'The grace of God is working in this man.” The interviewer then repeated the question, “So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?” “Expressly, yes [he laughs with the audience].” (Dallas Morning News, 3/20/99) Read John 14:6 and Acts 4:12

Council of Trent 1545-1564

CANON lI.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.

So let me get this straight, anyone can get to heaven and we don’t need Jesus to get there. I am anathema (damned or condemned) because I cant swallow transubstantiation, no pun intended.

To anyone who relies upon the RCC for salvation know this. John 14:5-6 says “5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

That headline is misleading because that is not what Cardinal Arinze said. He never said that Jesus was not the only way, but he did say that you can get to heaven without accepting Jesus. Even protestants who will give this more than a quick glance will admit that not everyone in heaven accepted Jesus while they were on earth.

 

[excatholic]

MrS:

And theologically the Cardinal is correct.

Do you think old testament figures knew Jesus… so are any of them in heaven?

Did you come to this forum today only to post this thread that you apparently don’t understand?

Or did some one send you ?

The Old Testament prophets and saints went to heaven when Jesus freed them from Abraham’ bosom. Eph.4: 8 Therefore He says:“When He ascended on high He led captivity captive And gave gifts to men.” 9 Now this, “He ascended”–what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. No one gets to heaven without Jesus. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Now then either Jesus is a Liar heaven for bid, or your Cardinal is wrong. Even the Old testament saints had to wait for Jesus’ atonement for sin. The RCC dogma is in error.

 

[MrS]

excatholic:

The Old Testament prophets and saints went to heaven when Jesus freed them from Abraham’ bosom. Eph.4: 8 Therefore He says:“When He ascended on high He led captivity captive And gave gifts to men.” 9 Now this, “He ascended”–what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. No one gets to heaven without Jesus. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Now then either Jesus is a Liar heaven for bid, or your Cardinal is wrong. Even the Old testament saints had to wait for Jesus’ atonement for sin. The RCC dogma is in error.

That is not even an answer to the question. Please read it again, then go ask your elders for a better answer.

 

[puzzleannie]

why is this article posted twice? why is this article quoted without giving the source? do you really expect a serious response without giving the source, circumstances and context of this supposed quote?

 

[carol_marie]

If this is true, if this Cardinal actually said that a good Muslum or a good Buddist or a good whatever can get to heaven WITHOUT Jesus and the Pope sees nothing wrong with his opinion, stick a fork in me I am so done with the Catholic Church. I will remove myself from RCIA class and never look back. I’ve had it up to here with your wishy washy views that are anything BUT Biblical.

 

[jimmy]

carol marie:

If this is true, if this Cardinal actually said that a good Muslum or a good Buddist or a good whatever can get to heaven WITHOUT Jesus and the Pope sees nothing wrong with his opinion, stick a fork in me I am so done with the Catholic Church. I will remove myself from RCIA class and never look back. I’ve had it up to here with your wishy washy views that are anything BUT Biblical.

Please read the other thread on this topic. We are not wishy washy and this article the threadstarter posted is dishonest.

 

[MrS]

carol marie:

If this is true, if this Cardinal actually said that a good Muslum or a good Buddist or a good whatever can get to heaven WITHOUT Jesus and the Pope sees nothing wrong with his opinion, stick a fork in me I am so done with the Catholic Church. I will remove myself from RCIA class and never look back. I’ve had it up to here with your wishy washy views that are anything BUT Biblical.

Please read the entire letter… the actual letter… you owe it to your four children. They are gifts from God and you must continue to seek the Truth for yourself and for them.

I would also suggest you take a good look at your RCIA class. It may be that it is weak, and wishy washy… the Catholic Church is not… even if many of its members are.

And God Bless you for your honest comments.

 

[Sherlock]

Carol Marie,

It seems as if you are almost always on the verge of some crisis here that will cause you to leave Catholicism! Please, please, please, don’t rush to conclusions without looking further into the matters that come up, and find yourself a good, orthodox parish (some here on this list might be able to suggest some in your area). Most things that come from reliable sources, yet are scandalous to you, probably simply need more explanation. The Church is not arbitrary, and has good reasons for the teachings she presents, even if indiviual Catholics don’t. Go to Ignatius Press’s website, and you’ll find good books from a reliable source that you can trust.

You wrote: “If this is true, if this Cardinal actually said that a good Muslum or a good Buddist or a good whatever can get to heaven WITHOUT Jesus and the Pope sees nothing wrong with his opinion, stick a fork in me I am so done with the Catholic Church.”

What is probably meant here is that an individual who, through no fault of his own, has never been exposed to the Gospels but has lived to the best of his ability to follow the truth that was present in his religion, may get to heaven. That does not mean that they won’t be getting there without Jesus, but that God may have another way of allowing that person to say ‘yes’ to Christ. Otherwise, how is it merciful to condemn to hell those who have never been exposed to Jesus? I guess I don’t find that scandalous, and if I did I would hasten to read many reliable sources before I would conclude that the Church was wrong. Hang in there, Carol Marie!

 

[carol_marie]

Sherlock,

I would hope that if I were that good Muslum or that good Buddist that the Cardinal said he became friends with - like “twins” he said, I would sincerely hope that my new friend the Cardinal would TELL me about Jesus rather than counting on my ignorance & God’s mercy. Yet in the full article he bascially said that it’s not “nice” to talk about how it’s only Jesus - that might create a stir and you want people to be able to have dialogue without debating. Please! That is so ridiculous… People NEED Jesus - not some false belief they think pleases God but actually pleases Satan!

And you are right… I am freaking out because I basically turned my entire life upside down. Pulled my kids out of their Christain school, left my old church, infuriated my husband and for what? I fell in love with the Catholic Church Scott Hahn described but what I’ve found is so different. Where is that Church? I’m told I can’t trust the Bishops, can’t trust the Priests, this Cardinal (with all due respect) doesn’t impress me, I’ve learned that you don’t need to beleive in Adam & Eve - evolution is just fine, and I should stop taking the Bible so seriously. I’m told to watch out for MOST RCIA classes (taught by liberal nuts?) and don’t even get me started about what I’ve read about liturgical abuses. So remind me because I’ve honestly forgotten… what’s so great about your Church? Now your Cardinal isn’t even sure you need Jesus?! Excuse me while I have a nervous breakdown.

 

[Pisio]

Sherlock:

What is probably meant here is that an individual who, through no fault of his own, has never been exposed to the Gospels but has lived to the best of his ability to follow the truth that was present in his religion, may get to heaven. That does not mean that they won’t be getting there without Jesus, but that God may have another way of allowing that person to say ‘yes’ to Christ. Otherwise, how is it merciful to condemn to hell those who have never been exposed to Jesus? I guess I don’t find that scandalous, and if I did I would hasten to read many reliable sources before I would conclude that the Church was wrong. Hang in there, Carol Marie!

If I could just add to this thought a little:
It is Grace the saves us… All Grace comes from Christ… with that line of reasoning, anyone who is saved is saved by Christ.

If Grace is an unmerited gift, anyone regardless of denomination could be given Grace by Christ (they may not respond to that Grace though).

However, if they live their lives in response to that Grace, they are living their lives in response to Christ, wether they realize that or not… When they make it to heaven, it is because of the Mercy of Christ to pour out His Grace upon them…

They have not made it to heaven without Christ, they have made it to heaven because of Christ…

That is just my own personal understanding of the teaching and the CCC’s references to those outside of the Church being saved. But I hope that it could help…

In Christ, with Mary,
Pisio

 

[MrS]

carol marie:

Sherlock,

I would hope that if I were that good Muslum or that good Buddist that the Cardinal said he became friends with - like “twins” he said, I would sincerely hope that my new friend the Cardinal would TELL me about Jesus rather than counting on my ignorance & God’s mercy. Yet in the full article he bascially said that it’s not “nice” to talk about how it’s only Jesus - that might create a stir and you want people to be able to have dialogue without debating. Please! That is so ridiculous… People NEED Jesus - not some false belief they think pleases God but actually pleases Satan!

And you are right… I am freaking out because I basically turned my entire life upside down. Pulled my kids out of their Christain school, left my old church, infuriated my husband and for what? I fell in love with the Catholic Church Scott Hahn described but what I’ve found is so different. Where is that Church? I’m told I can’t trust the Bishops, can’t trust the Priests, this Cardinal (with all due respect) doesn’t impress me, I’ve learned that you don’t need to beleive in Adam & Eve - evolution is just fine, and I should stop taking the Bible so seriously. I’m told to watch out for MOST RCIA classes (taught by liberal nuts?) and don’t even get me started about what I’ve read about liturgical abuses. So remind me because I’ve honestly forgotten… **what’s so great about your Church? **Now your Cardinal isn’t even sure you need Jesus?! Excuse me while I have a nervous breakdown.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif Gee you sound like I felt, when I left the church for 25 years.

I guess I can give a non-theological reason on what is so great…
these problems, abuses, confusions, scandals etc have been going on to a greater or lesser degree for all those 2000 years,

And the Church has survived in spite of them… it that doesn’t hint of the divine… what does?

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Coming home to the Church Christ founded is scary for many people. In the early days of my own conversion, the flimsiest of objections would completely unman me. It required alot of prayer and much patience. The critical thing was that I took it one step at a time and did not give into the death-by-a-thousand-complaints. One thing that I noticed and that really turned it around was when I noticed that the complainers were all reaction. They spent no time building up the case for whatever mutant offshoot Christianity they subscribed to, but instead just took potshots at the Church all day. Many would even hide their affiliation (or pull out the ‘non-denominational’ canard) so they could lambast Catholicism while keeping their own position safe from rigorous scrutiny.

Our Lord Jesus Christ founded this one Church and calls everyone into it. Keep the faith. Will pray for you.

Scott

 

[PaulDupre]

Please everybody, go over to the original thread of this topic. I posted the ACTUAL atricle from the Dallas Mormong News, which is nothing like the “urban legend” that Ex-Catholic posted. His posted version is a fraudulent invention of the Seventh-Day Adventists. They posted it on their anti-Catholic website and ignorant people like Ex-Catholic picked up on it and spread it around as if it were true.

You are all arguing something that doesn’t exist. Please go check out what the Cardinal REALLY said.

Sheesh.
Paul

 

[excatholic]

MrS:

That is not even an answer to the question. Please read it again, then go ask your elders for a better answer.

You said the Old Testament saint went to Heaven with out Jesus and the scriptur I gave shows you to be incorrect.

 

[MrS]

PaulDupre:

Please everybody, go over to the original thread of this topic. I posted the ACTUAL atricle from the Dallas Mormong News, which is nothing like the “urban legend” that Ex-Catholic posted. His posted version is a fraudulent invention of the Seventh-Day Adventists. They posted it on their anti-Catholic website and ignorant people like Ex-Catholic picked up on it and spread it around as if it were true.

You are all arguing something that doesn’t exist. Please go check out what the Cardinal REALLY said.

Sheesh.
Paul

And after that, ignore this ex(never was) Catholic. Next to fundamentalist muslims, their indoctrination is deep seeded and distructive. They won’t met in person if by chance they encounter a Catholic who knows his faith, It is only hit and run on forums. Just like the JW or Mormon who never returns when the tough questions are asked, or the true answers are given,

 

[excatholic]

MrS:

That is not even an answer to the question. Please read it again, then go ask your elders for a better answer.

You said the Old Testament Saints went to heaven before Jesus and I showed you Scripture contrary to your statement.

 

[MrS]

excatholic:

You said the Old Testament Saints went to heaven before Jesus and I showed you Scripture contrary to your statement.

no I never said that… I asked you a question… try again … three strikes and you are out,

 

[excatholic]

carol marie:

Sherlock,

I would hope that if I were that good Muslum or that good Buddist that the Cardinal said he became friends with - like “twins” he said, I would sincerely hope that my new friend the Cardinal would TELL me about Jesus rather than counting on my ignorance & God’s mercy. Yet in the full article he bascially said that it’s not “nice” to talk about how it’s only Jesus - that might create a stir and you want people to be able to have dialogue without debating. Please! That is so ridiculous… People NEED Jesus - not some false belief they think pleases God but actually pleases Satan!

And you are right… I am freaking out because I basically turned my entire life upside down. Pulled my kids out of their Christain school, left my old church, infuriated my husband and for what? I fell in love with the Catholic Church Scott Hahn described but what I’ve found is so different. Where is that Church? I’m told I can’t trust the Bishops, can’t trust the Priests, this Cardinal (with all due respect) doesn’t impress me, I’ve learned that you don’t need to beleive in Adam & Eve - evolution is just fine, and I should stop taking the Bible so seriously. I’m told to watch out for MOST RCIA classes (taught by liberal nuts?) and don’t even get me started about what I’ve read about liturgical abuses. So remind me because I’ve honestly forgotten… what’s so great about your Church? Now your Cardinal isn’t even sure you need Jesus?! Excuse me while I have a nervous breakdown.

Take it from someone who was a victim of the lie, I may get kicked out of here because sometimes the truth stings. God bless and keep you and yours.