- Status
S
Scott_Waddell
Guest
Easily stated, difficult to establish. And I’m afraid your out-of-context article does not demonstrate it. Also, what alternative are you offering?
Scott
E
excatholic
Guest
carol marie:
6 I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who in his love and mercy called you to share the eternal life he gives through Christ. You are already following a different way 7 that pretends to be the Good News but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who twist and change the truth concerning Christ.
8 Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other message than the one we told you about. Even if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other message, let him be forever cursed. 9 I will say it again: If anyone preaches any other gospel than the one you welcomed, let God’s curse fall upon that person.
10 Obviously, I’m not trying to be a people pleaser! No, I am trying to please God. If I were still trying to please people, I would not be Christ’s servant.
Galations 1:6-10
6 I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who in his love and mercy called you to share the eternal life he gives through Christ. You are already following a different way 7 that pretends to be the Good News but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who twist and change the truth concerning Christ.
8 Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other message than the one we told you about. Even if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other message, let him be forever cursed. 9 I will say it again: If anyone preaches any other gospel than the one you welcomed, let God’s curse fall upon that person.
10 Obviously, I’m not trying to be a people pleaser! No, I am trying to please God. If I were still trying to please people, I would not be Christ’s servant.
E
excatholic
Guest
Francis Cardinal Arinze speaks on interreligious dialogue
“Remarkable is the greater openness of the Catholic Church towards people of other religious traditions and persuasions,” declared Francis Cardinal Arinze last night in a public lecture at John Carroll. “The development has not been without problems, since some people have resisted it and others have pushed openness beyond the desirable point.” Cardinal Arinze, president of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue at the Vatican, offered reflections on how the Church sees herself and other religions, and “whether a friendly attitude towards other religions undermines the necessity of preaching Jesus Christ or puts Catholic identity at risk.”
“With reference to other religions, the Church sees a great difference between them and herself,” Cardinal Arinze said. “The other religions are expressions of the human soul seeking God, with some beautiful spiritual insights, but also not without errors. Christianity is rather God seeking humanity.” Noting that “Vatican II declares the Church … as necessary for salvation,” the former bishop of Onitsha, Nigeria, added that people who do not know Christ are nevertheless included in God’s plan of salvation.
“There are, however, conditions. They must be sincere in their seeking of God. They must be open to the secret but real action of the holy Spirit in them. They should follow their conscience in all matters of right and wrong.” A human’s religious response to God should be free, he said, a principle the Church has not always respected. But he also said, “To say that every individual has the right to religious freedom is not to condone religious indifferentism or irresponsibility, nor is it to promote the installation of a supermarket of religions.”
Like language, architecture and local customs, Cardinal Arinze said, “Religion is one dimension of culture, a transcendent element of it.” Thus the Church encourages “inculturation” of the Gospel, embracing the positive elements of each culture while challenging the negative ones. And, in the last analysis, the Church also encourages interreligious dialogue. "The answer is that interreligious dialogue, properly understood and faithfully carried out, helps to show how complementary this element is to proclamation and how the Catholic Church is committed to both."http://www.jcu.edu/pubaff/eyeonjcu/arinze3.jpgI’ll count on John 14:6 to save me.
John 14:6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is.* From now on you know him and have seen him!” This is the Gospel and not the RCC dogma. Everyone goes through Jesus or they don’t get there. Not my Word but God’s
E
excatholic
Guest
Scott Waddell:
Scott Gods Holy Word, the b i b l e= basic instructins before leaving earth.
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
hey ex - where do you think the B i b l e came from?
do you realize that the Bible never says that we should only do what the Bible says?
do you realize that the Bible DOES say that we should listen to what the church says?
do you realize that the Bible never says that we should only do what the Bible says?
do you realize that the Bible DOES say that we should listen to what the church says?
S
Sherlock
Guest
Carol Marie,
Trust me, I understand your frustration at the very human failings of the very human members of the Church. And I can’t imagine (because I’ve never had to face such a thing) being in your situation—you are very courageous!
You wrote: “I’m told I can’t trust the Bishops, can’t trust the Priests, this Cardinal (with all due respect) doesn’t impress me, I’ve learned that you don’t need to beleive in Adam & Eve - evolution is just fine, and I should stop taking the Bible so seriously. I’m told to watch out for MOST RCIA classes (taught by liberal nuts?) and don’t even get me started about what I’ve read about liturgical abuses.”
Well, this is painting a picture that is more bleak than accurate. There ARE good bishops (Burke, Chaput, etc. ), there ARE good priests (I admire, respect, and love our pastor, and have come to know many others for whom I have great admiration. One devout young priest of my aquaintance just exudes deep holiness…Christ is in this man!) and do not judge this Cardinal based on a snippet of a conversation. Judge him after you have read a good representative sample of his writings or opinions. Again, I would ask this forum for recommendations for good, orthodox parishes in your area. It can make all the difference in the world, or at least at the tender stage that you are in right now. The Church you fell in love with is there, you may just have to search for her with more focus and not be distracted by the failings of her members. A good, orthodox parish will take care of most of the problems you list.
Chesterton once said something to the effect that, though he could think of ten thousand reasons for joining the Church, there was really only one reason: because it was true. (That’s not exact, but it’s the gist of it). I’ll pray for you, Carol Marie, that you can find some rest. I think you need that!
Trust me, I understand your frustration at the very human failings of the very human members of the Church. And I can’t imagine (because I’ve never had to face such a thing) being in your situation—you are very courageous!
You wrote: “I’m told I can’t trust the Bishops, can’t trust the Priests, this Cardinal (with all due respect) doesn’t impress me, I’ve learned that you don’t need to beleive in Adam & Eve - evolution is just fine, and I should stop taking the Bible so seriously. I’m told to watch out for MOST RCIA classes (taught by liberal nuts?) and don’t even get me started about what I’ve read about liturgical abuses.”
Well, this is painting a picture that is more bleak than accurate. There ARE good bishops (Burke, Chaput, etc. ), there ARE good priests (I admire, respect, and love our pastor, and have come to know many others for whom I have great admiration. One devout young priest of my aquaintance just exudes deep holiness…Christ is in this man!) and do not judge this Cardinal based on a snippet of a conversation. Judge him after you have read a good representative sample of his writings or opinions. Again, I would ask this forum for recommendations for good, orthodox parishes in your area. It can make all the difference in the world, or at least at the tender stage that you are in right now. The Church you fell in love with is there, you may just have to search for her with more focus and not be distracted by the failings of her members. A good, orthodox parish will take care of most of the problems you list.
Chesterton once said something to the effect that, though he could think of ten thousand reasons for joining the Church, there was really only one reason: because it was true. (That’s not exact, but it’s the gist of it). I’ll pray for you, Carol Marie, that you can find some rest. I think you need that!
R
Reformed_Rob
Guest
Could it be that there are actually some Cardinals that say things that contradict the Church Fathers? And that those same Cardinals are in error regarding salvation outside the Catholic Church? Like, they take a rock that’s meant to skip once and then sink, and make it skip to the whole other side of the river. 
Well, interpret that the way I mean it!
See, you take something like extra ecclesia nulla sanctum and add a cup of baptism by desire and mix it all up with the body of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church and you got religious pluralism ala Catholic Theology.
Remember what Augustine said in His Against the Donatists Book 1:
“Therefore those whom they (the Donatists) baptize they heal from the wound of idolatry or unbelief; but they injure them more seriously with the wound of schism. For idolaters among the people of the Lord were smitten with the sword, but schismatics were swallowed up by the earth opening her mouth”
That’s in Chapter 8. I’d put the link to ccel’s on-line file of it, but it seems to not be where it was when I printed it out recently.
He goes on in Chapter 11 to basically say that in baptism by schimatics, there is not forgiveness of sin until they join the Catholic Church. Then the sacrament they receive becomes useful to them
Well, interpret that the way I mean it!
See, you take something like extra ecclesia nulla sanctum and add a cup of baptism by desire and mix it all up with the body of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church and you got religious pluralism ala Catholic Theology.
Remember what Augustine said in His Against the Donatists Book 1:
“Therefore those whom they (the Donatists) baptize they heal from the wound of idolatry or unbelief; but they injure them more seriously with the wound of schism. For idolaters among the people of the Lord were smitten with the sword, but schismatics were swallowed up by the earth opening her mouth”
That’s in Chapter 8. I’d put the link to ccel’s on-line file of it, but it seems to not be where it was when I printed it out recently.
He goes on in Chapter 11 to basically say that in baptism by schimatics, there is not forgiveness of sin until they join the Catholic Church. Then the sacrament they receive becomes useful to them
R
Reformed_Rob
Guest
Was that previous post totally off topic? I thought it might be at least remotely pertinent.
Maybe the SSPX is onto something? The magesterium seems so out of sync with Sacred Tradition, how can it be trusted. Isn’t Tradition infallible? That wasn’t mean to be a plug for sedavacantism, actually the SSPX is not pro-secavantist, from what I understand. It seems like they are the ones upholding genuine Catholicism, wanting a good Orthodox Pope to follow John Paul II.
Maybe the SSPX is onto something? The magesterium seems so out of sync with Sacred Tradition, how can it be trusted. Isn’t Tradition infallible? That wasn’t mean to be a plug for sedavacantism, actually the SSPX is not pro-secavantist, from what I understand. It seems like they are the ones upholding genuine Catholicism, wanting a good Orthodox Pope to follow John Paul II.
W
whosebob
Guest
excatholic said:
JMJ + OBT
Dear excatholic,
Thanks for posting this, what a great topic for discussion. Please, please keep coming back to these forums and “stirring up the pot” – just one recommendation, the discussions here will be more fruitful for both sides if, in grace and filled with the Holy Spirit, questions and positions are stated in a way that invites dialogue, as opposed to frustrating it. I can be a most guilty party in not following my own advice on this matter, but still . . .
Okay, here’s what I think: You need a bit of context in which to evaluate the good Cardinal’s comments. The best way to build that context would be to consider the relevant sections from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here are a few of the numbered pararaphs from the CCC (and this is a link to the relevant section) that are so very relevant, please read all of them, carefully (and take a look at the originals I’ve linked to because the footnotes are not included in my post) . . .
PROLOGUE “FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” “God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” “There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” - than the name of JESUS.
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
W
whosebob
Guest
One way to think of the Catechism is as the modern field manual for learning about and developing a Catholic interpretation and sense of Sacred Scripture, even the very verses you have been quoting to us.
Did you know, if you read 8 numbered paragraphs per day from the CCC, you will read the entire thing in 358 days. Read 16 paragraphs per day, and you will have it under your belt in 6 months. By the way, if you were to do this, and with the intellectual honesty that I’m sure you’re capable of, you will either know absolutely for sure why and that you will never become Catholic, OR, infinitely more likely, you will be actively seeking full membership within Her.
A printed copy is relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain at your local bookstore or by shopping the Web. Of course the on-line edition I’ve linked to is great for quick searches and “copy and paste.”
In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
IC XC NIKA
Did you know, if you read 8 numbered paragraphs per day from the CCC, you will read the entire thing in 358 days. Read 16 paragraphs per day, and you will have it under your belt in 6 months. By the way, if you were to do this, and with the intellectual honesty that I’m sure you’re capable of, you will either know absolutely for sure why and that you will never become Catholic, OR, infinitely more likely, you will be actively seeking full membership within Her.
A printed copy is relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain at your local bookstore or by shopping the Web. Of course the on-line edition I’ve linked to is great for quick searches and “copy and paste.”
In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
IC XC NIKA
W
whosebob
Guest
JMJ + OBT
Oh yes, excatholic,
I almost forgot to mention . . .
The short-cut to returning to, or perhaps for the first time really embracing, the Catholic Church is:
(1) Go to the nearest Catholic Church where Our Lord (yours and mine) Jesus is present in the Blessed Sacrament, either reserved in the tabernacle or exposed in a monstrance.
(2) Ask Him to reveal to you definitively, according to His own Will and Providence and in the manner of His choosing (not yours), that He is either (a) not bodily present, hidden under the appearance of a piece of bread or (b) that He is truly bodily present and that you should worship Him as such on your knees.
Jesus won’t let you down, He will let you know that He really is present there and in the manner that the Catholic Church teaches. I have absolute, unshakeable confidence in this matter.
If you’re really seeking out God in your life and seeking Jesus as He is present and active in His creation and among His people, then you will not delay long in considering this invitation.
Remember though, it must be done in sincerity and with a clean heart. Take a friend with you, or two or five or ten, Catholics or “non” or “ex” or whatever, as long as they too proceed with sincere, open, searching and clean hearts.
In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
IC XC NIKA
E
excatholic
Guest
E
excatholic
Guest
Reformed Rob:
Do you Remember what Rome did to the Donatists?Could it be that there are actually some Cardinals that say things that contradict the Church Fathers? And that those same Cardinals are in error regarding salvation outside the Catholic Church? Like, they take a rock that’s meant to skip once and then sink, and make it skip to the whole other side of the river.
Well, interpret that the way I mean it!
See, you take something like extra ecclesia nulla sanctum and add a cup of baptism by desire and mix it all up with the body of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church and you got religious pluralism ala Catholic Theology.
Remember what Augustine said in His Against the Donatists Book 1:
“Therefore those whom they (the ) baptize they heal from the wound of idolatry or unbelief; but they injure them more seriously with the wound of schism. For idolaters among the people of the Lord were smitten with the sword, but schismatics were swallowed up by the earth opening her mouth”
That’s in Chapter 8. I’d put the link to ccel’s on-line file of it, but it seems to not be where it was when I printed it out recently.
He goes on in Chapter 11 to basically say that in baptism by schimatics, there is not forgiveness of sin until they join the Catholic Church. Then the sacrament they receive becomes useful to them
D
dcdurel
Guest
carol marie:
It is ONLY the Pope and those few bishops in union with the Pope. Scott Hahn has always taught this, Catholics have always taught this, the Church has always taught this. There are lots of sinners in the Church who reject this constant teaching and because of the sin of pride, they like to promote their own ideas as if they were Church teaching. You and I are all sinners. Thus, we have to also accept the fact that in RCIA there are lots of sinners who are too proud to accept the authority of the Pope which comes from Jesus alone.
Therefore, when you hear nonsense like the Church teaches Darwinian evolution or that you don’t have to believe in Adam and Eve, just be patient, pray for the sinner and look up what the Church teaches in the Encyclical :
HUMANI GENERIS by Pope Pius XII
“Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church
propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.”
Thus, of course you have to believe in Adam and Eve. There are numerous other Church documents teaching the same thing. The New Testament constantly refers to Adam and Eve as actual persons, as does the constant Sacred Tradition of the Church, that is the teaching which has come down from the apostles, who learned directly from Jesus Christ Himself. There is nothing in Church teaching that teaches the opposite.
What is so great about the Church, is that we can find out the truth, even in when there are lots of ignorant proud people who reject Church teaching. In the Protestant religion, it will come down to “well, that is my interpretation of the bible” and you can never prove that what you believe is the truth or not". In the Catholic Church, you can find out the truth, by finding out what the Popes approve, or by finding our what the constant Tradition of the Church teaches, and you then can point out exactly what the Church teaches. If the dissendent rejects that truth, then you can point out that Jesus said to the teaching authorites HE appointed, “he who rejects you, rejects Me”, and “If he will not listen to the Church, let him be as a pagan or tax collector”. (in other words he has lost his salvation).
Thus always go back to Jesus. He is the foundation. Jesus said we must listen to His Church. Jesus appointed teaching authorities in His Church (Peter and the apostles), that is He established a teaching office. Remember God established a teaching office. This is a historical fact. And this teaching office appointed successors (the Pope and the bishops). And they, through their authority from Jesus, have always taught that the Pope and those few bishops in union with the Pope alone have the authority to authentically interpret the word of God.
Code:
The teaching authority in the Church is not theologians, priests, scripture scholars, experts, sisters, nuns, saints, Doctors of the Church, Cardinals, individual bishops, RCIA teachers, or you or me.Therefore, when you hear nonsense like the Church teaches Darwinian evolution or that you don’t have to believe in Adam and Eve, just be patient, pray for the sinner and look up what the Church teaches in the Encyclical :
HUMANI GENERIS by Pope Pius XII
“Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church
propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.”
Thus, of course you have to believe in Adam and Eve. There are numerous other Church documents teaching the same thing. The New Testament constantly refers to Adam and Eve as actual persons, as does the constant Sacred Tradition of the Church, that is the teaching which has come down from the apostles, who learned directly from Jesus Christ Himself. There is nothing in Church teaching that teaches the opposite.
What is so great about the Church, is that we can find out the truth, even in when there are lots of ignorant proud people who reject Church teaching. In the Protestant religion, it will come down to “well, that is my interpretation of the bible” and you can never prove that what you believe is the truth or not". In the Catholic Church, you can find out the truth, by finding out what the Popes approve, or by finding our what the constant Tradition of the Church teaches, and you then can point out exactly what the Church teaches. If the dissendent rejects that truth, then you can point out that Jesus said to the teaching authorites HE appointed, “he who rejects you, rejects Me”, and “If he will not listen to the Church, let him be as a pagan or tax collector”. (in other words he has lost his salvation).
Thus always go back to Jesus. He is the foundation. Jesus said we must listen to His Church. Jesus appointed teaching authorities in His Church (Peter and the apostles), that is He established a teaching office. Remember God established a teaching office. This is a historical fact. And this teaching office appointed successors (the Pope and the bishops). And they, through their authority from Jesus, have always taught that the Pope and those few bishops in union with the Pope alone have the authority to authentically interpret the word of God.
D
dcdurel
Guest
carol marie:
But, if we know Jesus, and do not believe and obey Him and die unrepentant, they we will end up in hell.
In other words, God will not condemn to hell all those pagans who live in the world now and who don’t know Jesus through no fault of their own, or who lived before Jesus and thus could not know him. If you were taught this, that all pagans end up in hell, where they will suffer eternally, even though they never heard of Jesus and His Gospel, then you were taught error which contradicts the Holy Word of God in Romans 2:14, 2:15.
That is not exactly true. What the Cardinal taught, is the same that the Church has always taught, and it is the same that the bible teaches in Romans 2:14 and 2:15, that those, who through no fault of their own, do not know Jesus, can still go to heaven, (through the merits of Jesus), if they follow their conscience and obey the law written on their hearts.
But, if we know Jesus, and do not believe and obey Him and die unrepentant, they we will end up in hell.
In other words, God will not condemn to hell all those pagans who live in the world now and who don’t know Jesus through no fault of their own, or who lived before Jesus and thus could not know him. If you were taught this, that all pagans end up in hell, where they will suffer eternally, even though they never heard of Jesus and His Gospel, then you were taught error which contradicts the Holy Word of God in Romans 2:14, 2:15.
P
patricius
Guest
Well, you certainly have to believe in some individual human beings who, way back before history began, brought sin into the world. That’s Humani Generis. But you don’t have to believe that they were named “Adam” and “Eve,” or that they had names for each other at all, or that they were created directly “from dust” and not indirectly by means of evolution.
But-- and the Church will always be clear on this-- you can’t evolve a soul. God had to step in and, at a discernible moment in time, give the first human beings souls, regardless of how their bodies came to be. From that moment on, we were in the image and likeness of God and different in kind from the rest of creation.
On the original topic of this thread: why does salvation without earthly knowledge of Jesus necessarily translate into not needing Jesus? And what does “outside the Church” mean? This is metaphorical language, after all-- no one claims that you have to stay “inside” a church building your whole life to be saved. I think that by interpreting (as they must) the word “outside,” the Catechism and Cardinal Arinze are simply developing the meaning of extra ecclesiam nulla salus , as the Church has always developed-- but not changed-- Her doctrines.
L
Little_Mary
Guest
I just read the article that the OP provided. IMHO, the Bishop was trying to make the point that we should not be judgmental towards others who might have different beliefs…and that it is up to God and only God who enters heaven…if He chooses to bestow his Grace upon a Muslim or a Buddhist He certainly can…He has His own plan for each of us.
To coin a phrase “God works in mysterious ways!”
To the OP - I hope you don’t really hate the Catholic Church as much as your posts sound like you do. That would not be a very Christlike way to live, methinks; however, God has His plan for your as well, so please continue to keep the Catholic Church and Her teachings in the front of your mind. It’s certainly a step in the right direction.
Peace.
To coin a phrase “God works in mysterious ways!”
To the OP - I hope you don’t really hate the Catholic Church as much as your posts sound like you do. That would not be a very Christlike way to live, methinks; however, God has His plan for your as well, so please continue to keep the Catholic Church and Her teachings in the front of your mind. It’s certainly a step in the right direction.
Peace.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Reformed Rob:
Could it be that there are actually some Cardinals that say things that contradict the Church Fathers? And that those same Cardinals are in error regarding salvation outside the Catholic Church? Like, they take a rock that’s meant to skip once and then sink, and make it skip to the whole other side of the river.
Well, interpret that the way I mean it!
See, you take something like extra ecclesia nulla sanctum and add a cup of baptism by desire and mix it all up with the body of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church and you got religious pluralism ala Catholic Theology.
Remember what Augustine said in His Against the Donatists Book 1:
“Therefore those whom they (the Donatists) baptize they heal from the wound of idolatry or unbelief; but they injure them more seriously with the wound of schism. For idolaters among the people of the Lord were smitten with the sword, but schismatics were swallowed up by the earth opening her mouth”
That’s in Chapter 8. I’d put the link to ccel’s on-line file of it, but it seems to not be where it was when I printed it out recently.
He goes on in Chapter 11 to basically say that in baptism by schimatics, there is not forgiveness of sin until they join the Catholic Church. Then the sacrament they receive becomes useful to them
Is this it ?
D
dcdurel
Guest
We certainly do have to believe our first parents were Adam and Eve.
We have to remember how fundamental Church teachings came to us. Jesus and the Holy Spirit taught the apostles. They in turn handed their teachings down through apostolic Tradition to the Church. Thus, fundamental Church teachings come from God.
One of these teachings is that we all inherit original sin from a man named Adam. Thus, this teaching comes from God, and thus the bible must be interpreted that way.
That is why the Catechism says scripture must be interpreted according to Sacred Tradition.
Another rule is that we must intepret scripture in the literal sense, unless it is impossible to do so.
Thus, since Genesis presents Adam and Eve as actual persons, we must interpret them as being actual persons.
There is no logical valid reason why we cannot acept them as actual persons.
What some Catholics don’t realize is that many “scripture scholars” accept rationalism as their foundation for intepreting scripture. Rationalism rejects inspiration and God as its foundation. In other words, Rationalists don’t believe God existes. Thus, by defintion they must interpret all of Gensis as a man-made story. So they reject an actual Adam and Eve, not because there is any good reason to do so, but simply because they don’t believe in God, and so for them all of the creation narrative must be a man-made story.
Another rule is that we must interpret scripture so that it does not contradict the rest of scripture. Adam and Eve are referred to as actual persons through out scripture. Jesus referred to Abel as an actual person. Thus, again, we cannot refer to them as mythical without contradicting Jesus and the rest of scripture.
Thanks
Dennis
- Status