Catholic Cardinal says we no longer need Jesus

  • Thread starter Thread starter excatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
dcdurel:
Another rule is that we must interpret scripture so that it does not contradict the rest of scripture. Adam and Eve are referred to as actual persons through out scripture. Jesus referred to Abel as an actual person. Thus, again, we cannot refer to them as mythical without contradicting Jesus and the rest of scripture.

Thanks
Dennis
Click to expand...
I think regarding Jesus and "actual persons’, the fact that Jesus refers to someone does not necessarily mean the person had to be an “actual” person.

Jesus made important moral, ethical, and theological points refering to people like the Good Samaritan or the Prodigal Son, neither of whom existed until Jesus invented them to make a point.

I maintain that, while the historical record of God’s salvation of humanity certainly is important and Jesus is an actual, historical person, The main point of Scripture is not to teach about “actual historical” persons but about how to have a good relationship with God.

peace,
-Jim
 
Carol Marie…this article is not cited and it is being taken out of context…You have to understand what is being said here. If someone has never been exposed to Christianity, the Gospels, etc…and if they have lived a moral and chaste life according to their informed conscience, then it is possible for them to get to Heaven…the key here is “informed conscience”. Also, no matter if they are a Hindu, Muslim, etc…it is still the sacrafice of Jesus Christ dying on the Cross which enables them to go to Heaven…Christ is the redeemer for all mankind…not just Christians/Catholics.

I hope this has helped.
carol marie:
If this is true, if this Cardinal actually said that a good Muslum or a good Buddist or a good whatever can get to heaven WITHOUT Jesus and the Pope sees nothing wrong with his opinion, stick a fork in me I am so done with the Catholic Church. I will remove myself from RCIA class and never look back. I’ve had it up to here with your wishy washy views that are anything BUT Biblical.
Click to expand...
 
40.png
trogiah:
I think regarding Jesus and "actual persons’, the fact that Jesus refers to someone does not necessarily mean the person had to be an “actual” person.

Jesus made important moral, ethical, and theological points refering to people like the Good Samaritan or the Prodigal Son, neither of whom existed until Jesus invented them to make a point.
Click to expand...
Jesus never gave the Good Samaritan a name or the Prodigal Son a name, thus designating them as parables. Jesus did refer to Abel as a person, and not in a parable, and He referred to Abel as “innocent”.
In the same way Adam and Eve are referred to as actual persons throught scripture, thus cannot be dismissed as figurative.

Again, the rule of the Church is to always interpret scripture in the literal historical sense unless there is a very good reason why we cannot do so. This is NOT my personal belief, but the teaching of the Catholic Church.

There is no good reason why all of Genesis must be a “story”.
Sure there is lots of figurative language in it, but the basic historical facts must be accepted as the Church has always taught them. The bible is primarily salvation history, thus it does aim to present history in the light of salvation. The bible is not only teachings, it is salvation history. We must remember that. In fact, the historical part of scripture is the only part that is explicit. It is the only part that even Protestants can agree on. can agree on. Teachings in scripture are all vague and need interpretion. Historical facts do not.
That is because Jesus intended His Church to teach doctrine. He did not intend for the bible to teach doctrine by itself. Scripture is first to present salvation history.
Second, it is used by the Church to illuminate and to be a witness to the doctrine it has already been teaching
Third, it has implicit teachings which can be used in the future for the developement of doctrine.
And of course it presents the person of Jesus. Thus, not to know scripture is not to know Christ.
 
40.png
PaulDupre:
Please everybody, go over to the original thread of this topic. I posted the ACTUAL atricle from the Dallas Mormong News, which is nothing like the “urban legend” that Ex-Catholic posted. His posted version is a fraudulent invention of the Seventh-Day Adventists. They posted it on their anti-Catholic website and ignorant people like Ex-Catholic picked up on it and spread it around as if it were true.

You are all arguing something that doesn’t exist. Please go check out what the Cardinal REALLY said.

Sheesh.
Paul
Click to expand...
Sing it again, Sam!!
 
I am just continually astonished at the amount of attacks the RCC has to put up with.

I suppose the term ‘Fighting Faith’ plays a big role.

If one has intuition and Christian discernment, what the Cardinal is saying here is about the most obvious poker hand in the book. But to discern what he is saying, it takes many (atleast a few) years of solid Christian contemplation.

He is NOT saying man can make it to Heaven without Christ. He is explicitly stating that what is in a mans soul is what will convict him at his judgement before Christ.

We must realize that the Trinity wishes us all to be in paradise above all else. But often so, we choose not to. He is saying, very cleverly, that a man with a good soul will realize that Christ is the Truth, the Light, and the Way.

Cheers
 
If I am correct, I believe that the Church teaches that if a person through no fault of their own does not know Jesus, or enough about Jesus to save him is still saved by doing good.
But if this good Muslim that we are speaking of knows that Jesus is the Son of God, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, the only doorway to heaven, but says: “I still won’t follow Jesus”, then this Muslim is lost.
Remember in the Epistle to the Romans ( I believe it may be the second chapter) Paul said that the gentiles who do not know God through no fault of their own, are saved through their conscience, to do good or evil.
 
excatholic said:
Francis Cardinal Arinze speaks on interreligious dialogue

“Remarkable is the greater openness of the Catholic Church towards people of other religious traditions and persuasions,” declared Francis Cardinal Arinze last night in a public lecture at John Carroll. “The development has not been without problems, since some people have resisted it and others have pushed openness beyond the desirable point.” Cardinal Arinze, president of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue at the Vatican, offered reflections on how the Church sees herself and other religions, and “whether a friendly attitude towards other religions undermines the necessity of preaching Jesus Christ or puts Catholic identity at risk.”

“With reference to other religions, the Church sees a great difference between them and herself,” Cardinal Arinze said. “The other religions are expressions of the human soul seeking God, with some beautiful spiritual insights, but also not without errors. Christianity is rather God seeking humanity.” Noting that “Vatican II declares the Church … as necessary for salvation,” the former bishop of Onitsha, Nigeria, added that people who do not know Christ are nevertheless included in God’s plan of salvation.

“There are, however, conditions. They must be sincere in their seeking of God. They must be open to the secret but real action of the holy Spirit in them. They should follow their conscience in all matters of right and wrong.” A human’s religious response to God should be free, he said, a principle the Church has not always respected. But he also said, “To say that every individual has the right to religious freedom is not to condone religious indifferentism or irresponsibility, nor is it to promote the installation of a supermarket of religions.”

Like language, architecture and local customs, Cardinal Arinze said, “Religion is one dimension of culture, a transcendent element of it.” Thus the Church encourages “inculturation” of the Gospel, embracing the positive elements of each culture while challenging the negative ones. And, in the last analysis, the Church also encourages interreligious dialogue. "The answer is that interreligious dialogue, properly understood and faithfully carried out, helps to show how complementary this element is to proclamation and how the Catholic Church is committed to both."http://www.jcu.edu/pubaff/eyeonjcu/arinze3.jpgI’ll count on John 14:6 to save me.
John 14:6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is.* From now on you know him and have seen him!” This is the Gospel and not the RCC dogma. Everyone goes through Jesus or they don’t get there. Not my Word but God’s
Click to expand...

This is what I meant in my reply. Those who do not know what is written in John 14:6, through no fault of their own, are saved by their own conscience, for good or for evil.
 
“In paragraph 16 of Lumen Gentium from Vatican 11, it says that Moslems who worship in the religion of Abraham may share in salvation.”
"In the paragraph cited, the Council said that ’ the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place among these are the Moslems, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.’
For further clairification read: Vatican 11’s Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions. Also paragraph 841 of the CCC.
 
Carol Marie,
You said recently "I fell in love with the Catholic Church Scott Hahn described"
Do you not see a problem with this? How could I fall in love with the Mona Lisa simply based on someone elses description? I would have to experience it for myself to fully appreciate its beauty.

Stick in there! Go for it. You are being led down a beautiful path in a difficult manner but remember you are being guided.

Satan will do anything to knock you off course. Can you not see his attempts?

Those who have not yet heard the Gospel we entrust to the great and incomprehensible mercy of God. Of course we always hope they will hear and accept the fullness of truth.

Those of us who are practising Catholics need to worry about our salvation. It has implications. It requires work. We need to live a life that will lead us to its fullness.

Those of you who once were Catholic and are now in schism or holding a heresy and have rejected the Church and its teachingas a result seriously need to worry. The statement “No salvation outside the Church” applies to you. Unless you repent of your errors and return to full communion you cannot have life within you and hence cannot achieve the salvation promised.
 
An excerpt from religioustolerance.org/rcc_othe.htm

The current views of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) concerning other Christian denominations and other religions are explained in a Vatican declaration Dominus Iesus. The statement implies that “Churches such as the Church of England, where the apostolic succession of bishops from the time of St. Peter is disputed by Rome, and churches without bishops, are not considered ‘proper’ churches.” They suffer from “defects.” This statement includes all denominations of Christianity with the exception of the RCC itself, and the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
Religions other than Christianity are considered to be “gravely deficient.” Their rituals can constitute “an obstacle to salvation” for their followers.

Since the Church teaches that a very lengthy interval in Purgatory or an eternity in Hell awaits the unsaved, the adverse consequences of an individual following another religion (or a Christian denomination other than the RCC) are severe – perhaps infinite infinite in nature.
There is really nothing new in this document. It reflects long-standing inclusivist beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church: that the Church alone possesses the full truth; all other faith groups have only elements of truth. To a secular individual. this may seem like an arrogant stance. However, it is hardly unique. Many, perhaps most, faith traditions also believe that they alone possess the entire truth, and view all other religions as being at least partly deficient.

Our Holy Father has spoken about evangelisation on many many occassions. How many put it into effect?? We have a duty to explain in a most empathetic yet truthful manner the essentials of our wonderful faith.
 
40.png
Fergal:
Since the Church teaches that a very lengthy interval in Purgatory or an eternity in Hell awaits the unsaved, (snip…)
Click to expand...
Let me just jump in here and remind everyone that only those who are already saved by the blood of Jesus enter purgatory for a final expiation of the temporal consequences of sin. The unsaved are in hell.
Grace to you,
Paul
 
40.png
excatholic:
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999

** Potential Pope Declares Jesus Is NotThe Only Way!**

** Cardinal Francis Arinze, who’s considered a possible successor to Pope John Paul II, has denied Jesus is the only way to heaven. In a recent interview the pope’s spirited 66 year-old deputy for outreach to other religions was asked, “So was Jesus wrong when he said he was the way, the truth and the life?” Arinze responed, “If a person were to push what you said a little further and say that if you’re not a Christian you’re not going to heaven, we’d regard that person as a fundamentalist…and theologically wrong. I met in Pakistan a Muslim. He had a wonderful concept of the Koran. We were like two twins that had known one another from birth. And I was in admiration of this man’s wisdom. I think that man will go to heaven. There was a Buddhist in Kyoto, in Japan. This man, a good man, open, listening, humble–I was amazed. I listened to his works of wisdom and said to myself, 'The grace of God is working in this man.” The interviewer then repeated the question, “So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?” “Expressly, yes [he laughs with the audience].” (Dallas Morning News, 3/20/99) Read John 14:6 and Acts 4:12**>
Click to expand...
Arinze was quite correct in saying one can get to heaven without (explicitly) accepting Jesus. That is a far cry from being saved without Jesus. There is a recent document from Rome that explains that statement in more depth. By “not accepting Jesus” means only an explicit acceptance. The teaching is that all those people of good will, who strive to live rightiously are **implicitly accepting ** Jesus and are saved only through His passion and death on the cross for all of mankind. The document is “Iesus” something in latin and is about two years old.
 
This supposed article is an urban legend started by the Seventh-Day Adventists. The real article from the Dallas Morning News is printed in the next post below. Notice that it is very different from the SDA version. Cardinal Arinze posits that everyone should be Christian. In fact he says that everyone who finds the fullnes of truth will become a Christian. Those who never have the opportunity to know Jesus but nonetheless seek God with a sincere and open heart can still be saved by means known only to God. This is right in line with the Catechism.
Paul
 
The Dallas Morning News

March 20, 1999

“If God himself gave freedom”
Cardinal Arinze says force has no place in faith matters

By Brooks Egerton Staff Writer of The Dallas Morning News
Published March 20, 1999
Click here to go back to results.
What is the point of interfaith dialogue? Are there hidden agendas of conversion? Does respect for other religions mean that one is as good as another? Is there more than one way to heaven?

Such questions arose again and again at last weekend’s Thanksgiving World Assembly, an international gathering of religious leaders in downtown Dallas. They came into particularly sharp focus during a small-group discussion led by Cardinal Francis Arinze, who’s considered a possible successor to Pope John Paul II.

Cardinal Arinze, the pope’s spirited 66-year-old deputy for outreach to other religions, was born into a Nigerian tribal faith and converted to Roman Catholicism at age 9. He served as a priest, bishop and archbishop in his home country before being called to the Vatican in the mid-1980s.

He has traveled the world since then, meeting everyone from Anglicans to Zoroastrians, winning friends if not necessarily converts. His style is frank and nonbureaucratic; many who met him in Dallas saw both confidence and humility, along with repeated flashes of humor.

Following are excerpts of last weekend’s discussion, which began with California Episcopal Bishop William Swing – who’s trying to form a sort of United Nations for religions – seeking the cardinal’s views on conversion and proselytizing.

Cardinal Arinze: "The word [proselytizing] at one time was used in a good sense … but gradually I think it has a connotation which is no longer acceptable. [That is] when it means to try to win another person over to my faith by methods that are unworthy of the human person, or methods that are unjust, which is the same, or methods that exploit the difficulties of another – like, ‘If you join my religion, I’ll give you a scholarship in the university. If you join my religion, I’ll give you rice to eat.’ In one country in Africa, ‘If you join our religion, we’ll give you relief supplies; if you do not, you starve and die.’ And it still happens. …

"The principle it violates is the principle of respect for religious freedom, that every human being should have the freedom … to worship God in this way or that. Not because we believe that one religion is as good as another – no – but because we believe that the human person should be inviolable, should not be violated. If God himself gave us freedom and he allowed us to use it even to the extent of offending him, who are we to use force on another in matters religious? …

"Although I, for instance, would want everybody to be a Catholic in the world – everybody – I can only propose it. I should not try to impose it. … If everybody wants to become a Catholic, very good. The pope will close the department where I’m working [audience laughter] … but is that about to happen? There’s no sign of it. So once you allow human freedom, you must allow people to have two religions, or three, or four, or 200, not because you want a supermarket of religions but because the human person has freedom. … "

Continued…
 
Dr. Joseph B. Tyson, professor emeritus of religious studies at Southern Methodist University and chairman of the Thanks-Giving Square chapel committee: " … There are certain elements within Christianity which would say Jews are rejected of God because of the rejection of Jesus, because of the belief of their participation in the death of Jesus. I know there have been some dialogues between Jews and Christians in which Christians have been forced to change – forced by persuasion to change their views on that subject simply by listening to the impact of that view on some Jews."

Cardinal Arinze: "The Christians were compelled not to change their faith but to get a clearer understanding of their faith. … By discussing with Jews and reflecting, they realized they had not understood very well their own tradition. …

"St. Paul the Apostle, even though he was a great theologian, didn’t condemn slavery as such. But now we realize that slavery should be condemned as such. It was not so clear at that time. Even in the Catholic Church we do not hold that we have the clearest idea on every point. … We can grow in our understanding. …

"When people meet in interreligious dialogue, the end isn’t to convince the other person to cross over to my religion. If that is the end, it is not interreligious dialogue. It is a debate, or an argument, friendly or otherwise.

"On the other hand, we hold that people who meet in interreligious discussion and reflection should be open to conversion in another sense – conversion to God, in the sense of openness to God; that is, the action of God in us. After all, religion is not what we achieve in our Catholic belief; it is merely what God works in us if only we will allow him. … "

Dr. Tyson: "It seems to me that one of the barriers to interreligious dialogue, at least on the Christian side, is the kind of exclusivistic claim – that in fact if you don’t believe in Jesus Christ, you will not be in the right with God. … "

Cardinal Arinze: "[A document from the Second Vatican Council] says that God’s grant of salvation includes not only Christians, but Jews, Muslims, Hindus and people of good will. That is, a person can be saved, can attain salvation, but on condition that the person is open to God’s action. … "

**Robert Ashley, news director at Dallas radio station KHVN-AM (970): ** “So was Jesus wrong when he said he was the way, the truth and the life?”

Cardinal Arinze: "He was right. He is the way, the truth and the life. If you believe that you will become a Christian [audience laughter]. … Only God knows to what extent a person is sincere, what opportunities the person got and how the person used those opportunities. Only God can assess all that, and he never appointed any of us part of his advisory council [more laughter]. …

"If a person were to push what you said a little further and say that if you’re not a Christian you’re not going to heaven, we’d regard that person as a fundamentalist … and theologically wrong. …

"It is quite another matter to say that one religion is as good as another. That is, it doesn’t matter to what religion you belong, you can believe in this or that. … Religion is not put together that way, [in which] you change the rules and change the goalposts if you can’t score. No, no, no. … [But we also] believe that as every religion has elements that are true and noble and good. …

“How will it work out? I can’t tell you. But we know that Christ, who says, ‘I am the way, the truth and the life,’ died on the cross for everyone. But not everyone has equal opportunity to know about him.”

Continued…
 
Sister Maureen, a London-based representative of the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organization: "I’m amazed. I’m amazed. … "

Cardinal Arinze: "You thought I was a fundamentalist [he laughs] …

"I met in one place in Pakistan a Muslim [who] lived alone, and people would go to him. … He had a wonderful concept of the Koran. … We were like two twins that had known one another from birth. And I was in admiration of this man’s wisdom. I think that man will go to heaven. But I am not the one who opens the door [audience laughter]. …

"There was a Buddhist in Kyoto, in Japan. … This man, a good man, open, listening, humble – I was amazed. I listened to his words of wisdom and said to myself, ‘The grace of God is working in this man.’

"I noticed that the more they were devoted to their religion and I to my religion, the more we met one another even though I didn’t know their language. … There is a language of the heart. Even a dog knows those that love it. So if you meet a person, if both of you are devoted to God, both of you will be nearer to one another than two professors of two religions who don’t practice what they teach but can elucubrate from morning till evening. … "

Mr. Ashley: “So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?”

Cardinal Arinze: “Expressly, yes [he laughs with the audience].”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top