Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an effective response to Charismatic Evanglicals?

[colliric]

The Vatican is going to handle this movement the same way it’s handled the Liberal Bishops.
Eventually, it’s going to die out.
And thank you Holy Lord, is waning already.

these groups arn’t liberal, there is a difference between a liberal and a Charismatic. A liberal wants to change things, a charismatic wants to do it within doctrine but more enthusiastically.

Thats why they are “Charismatic” Catholics, and not “Liberal” or “Orthodox”(Like most catholics are).

 

[O.S.Luke]

I did not say that it was a bad thing, but I did ask why the Holy Spirit seems to be showing such a preference for styles of prayer and worship and liturgical music which are so identified with American Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism, and so foreign to centuries (at least) of Church practice? I think it’s a fair question – why does the Holy Spirit seem to be insisting that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal look so much like recent American born-and-bred Protestantism?

Protestantism was not American born-and-bred. It was European born and bred. And if you review church history and liturgy for the past two thousand years, it’s changed too.

Organ music was at first dismissed by the church as being demonic and secular. And air conditioning was viewed as ‘making worship/mass too comfortable.’

Just a thought.

 

[Penny_Plain]

I think it’s a fair question – why does the Holy Spirit seem to be insisting that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal look so much like recent American born-and-bred Protestantism?

Maybe the Holy Spirit knows there’s more than one way to skin a cat?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I did not say that it was a bad thing, but I did ask why the Holy Spirit seems to be showing such a preference for styles of prayer and worship and liturgical music which are so identified with American Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism, and so foreign to centuries (at least) of Church practice? I think it’s a fair question – why does the Holy Spirit seem to be insisting that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal look so much like recent American born-and-bred Protestantism?

I don’t know. Does it have to look a certain way to be Catholic? I’m not sure that it does.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The Vatican is going to handle this movement the same way it’s handled the Liberal Bishops.
Eventually, it’s going to die out.
And thank you Holy Lord, is waning already.

I don’t know, Netmil(name removed by moderator), it’s been approved by two Vicars of Christ. Again, I’m not advocating for it, but neither am I going to say that the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Trinity, cannot do what it pleases Him to do (esp. in light of two papal approvals), if it’s Him that’s doing it.

 

[Walking_Home]

Well it isn’t, otherwise the Vatican would have said so itself. They have been supporting and fostering this group as a whole because this group in general(of cause you are going to get a few bad eggs who take things too far) keeps all catholic doctrines that other more orthodox catholic churches also follow.

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Oh—the Vatican has in fact said so itself. Since 1970 --the Church has stated that all experimentation must stop.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

27.] As early as the year 1970, the Apostolic See announced the cessation of all experimentation as regards the celebration of Holy Mass[62] and reiterated the same in 1988.63] Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. In order to carry out experimentation of this kind in the future, the permission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is required. It must be in writing, and it is to be requested by the Conference of Bishops. In fact, it will not be granted without serious reason. As regards projects of inculturation in liturgical matters, the particular norms that have been established are strictly and comprehensively to be observed.[64]

 

[VociMike]

Protestantism was not American born-and-bred. It was European born and bred.

I know this. But Luther and Calvin did not have Pentecostal-style prayer and worship, and they did not have praise and worship style music. These are modern (within the last century) American Evangelical and Pentecostal creations.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

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Oh—the Vatican has in fact said so itself. Since 1970 --the Church has stated that all experimentation must stop.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

27.] As early as the year 1970, the Apostolic See announced the cessation of all experimentation as regards the celebration of Holy Mass[62] and reiterated the same in 1988.63] Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. In order to carry out experimentation of this kind in the future, the permission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is required. It must be in writing, and it is to be requested by the Conference of Bishops. In fact, it will not be granted without serious reason. As regards projects of inculturation in liturgical matters, the particular norms that have been established are strictly and comprehensively to be observed.[64]

And yet: Pope Benedict KNEW what the Neochatecumenal Way was doing in their liturgies and firmly (but charitibly) brought them back into line. He surely, being Joseph Ratzinger, knows about the Charismatics, but has not issued any directive to stop with the raising of hands at “charismatic masses,” or anything else that goes with that possible charism. Has anyone heard him make a statement?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I know this. But Luther and Calvin did not have Pentecostal-style prayer and worship, and they did not have praise and worship style music. These are modern (within the last century) American Evangelical and Pentecostal creations.

That begs the question: is “new” (and I would argue this isn’t new) or “modern” by definition bad (as opposed to “modernism,” which is a specific heresy often confused with “modern”).

 

[netmilsmom]

I don’t know, Netmil(name removed by moderator), it’s been approved by two Vicars of Christ.

And like I said dying on it’s own.
The Vatican is not going to take a movement it approved 30 years ago and just get rid of it. They will trim it and work it until it’s exactly as it should be. Who knows, it may even get it’s own rite. It was a big deal to have ecumenical services and the Charismatics had their share, at least in my area.

Mother Angelica was into it at the same time JPII (God rest his soul) was. While Angelica was open about her leaving it and the reasons why, JPII just became silent and more traditional.

You may see some holdover of it 20 years from now, but it sure won’t be anything like we saw 20 years ago or today.

 

[VociMike]

I don’t know. Does it have to look a certain way to be Catholic? I’m not sure that it does.

No, it doesn’t have to look a certain way. But if, instead of looking like American Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism, the Catholic Charismatic Movement looked more like e.g. Islam or Buddhism, I think more people might be interested in the question.

The problem is that the Holy Spirit seems to be speaking of two minds, one way through Vatican II and the popes, and another way through the CCM. Why, for example, doesn’t the CCM use lots of Gregorian chant and Latin, considering that the Council explicitly endorsed both?

 

[VociMike]

That begs the question: is “new” (and I would argue this isn’t new) or “modern” by definition bad (as opposed to “modernism,” which is a specific heresy often confused with “modern”).

Once again, I have not suggested anything of the sort. I am simply asking why the Holy Spirit has decided that a renewal of the Catholic Church should look so unlike anything in the Catholic experience and so like developments in the American Evangelical and Pentecostal experiences.

 

[netmilsmom]

No, it doesn’t have to look a certain way. But if, instead of looking like American Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism, the Catholic Charismatic Movement looked more like e.g. Islam or Buddhism, I think more people might be interested in the question.

That is a very good point.
When someone calls the Orans a legitimate prayer posture, I tell them that so is shorkling, yet no one incorporates it into the liturgy.

And I’m not sure that the early church fathers, coming from a jewish backround, didn’t use it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

No, it doesn’t have to look a certain way. But if, instead of looking like American Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism, the Catholic Charismatic Movement looked more like e.g. Islam or Buddhism, I think more people might be interested in the question.

The problem is that the Holy Spirit seems to be speaking of two minds, one way through Vatican II and the popes, and another way through the CCM. Why, for example, doesn’t the CCM use lots of Gregorian chant and Latin, considering that the Council explicitly endorsed both?

Wow, I think maybe we’re talking about 2 different things, but I’m from the South and you’d never confuse a charismatic with a Buddhist! New Age and charismatic aren’t the same, at least in MY neck of the woods, and if there are charismatics who have confused them, then they have indeed deep-ended.

As for GC and Latin, the Holy See has given to bishops’ conferences discretion to determine how much/to what extent the vernacular may be incorporated into the Mass. Popes may act without reference to councils, so even if Vatican II called for the retention of Latin, the Holy Father can permit it to be dispensed with. Also, the translations have to be approved (and up to now, have been allowed) by the Holy See, so they know we have a vernacular Mass (thank God). I don’t see the lack of Latin or GC as being indicative of the Holy Spirit’s Presence or lack thereof, since the Church allows the vernacular.

 

[Walking_Home]

And yet: Pope Benedict KNEW what the Neochatecumenal Way was doing in their liturgies and firmly (but charitibly) brought them back into line. He surely, being Joseph Ratzinger, knows about the Charismatics, but has not issued any directive to stop with the raising of hands at “charismatic masses,” or anything else that goes with that possible charism. Has anyone heard him make a statement?

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I had previously posted the following from RS-2004. Have we gotten to the pt. where we need our Pope to hit us over the head with the directives being issued from Rome. Do we need everything spelled out to the letter–naming every conceivable abuse, innovation that we the laity can think of and who is causing it.

[114.] “At Sunday Masses in parishes, insofar as parishes are ‘Eucharistic communities’, it is customary to find different groups, movements, associations, and even the smaller religious communities present in the parish.”[202] While it is permissible that Mass should be celebrated for particular groups according to the norm of law,[203] these groups are nevertheless not exempt from the faithful observance of the liturgical norms.

 

[netmilsmom]

New Age and charismatic aren’t the same, at least in MY neck of the woods, and if there are charismatics who have confused them, then they have indeed deep-ended.

They are about one in the same in Cleveland.

In fact, as I remember, one of the new age shows in the area had a Catholic group there.

I was into the “Natural” stuff at the time.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I have been involved with a Catholic Charismatic Bible study for about two years. I would like to share my experience. First of all, I have never seen any of the “almost protestant” stuff that some of you have written about. I shocked and disappointed that some charismatics would stray from Catholic teaching in that way. Maybe this is a regional thing? I just don’t know. What I do know is that my group is 100% Catholic in every way I can think of. Yes, we pray in tongues (which is, of course, scriptural and it happens to be the very way our Church began on Pentecost). We also pray the Glory Be at every session, and we praise Jesus for all our answered prayers. The group leader, who does a 40 minute lecture on the Bible lesson for the week, does a nice job of relating the scripture lesson with Catholic teaching. Oh, by the way, during Mass we are all on our knees during the consecration (never heard of anyone Charismatic standing until I read this thread ). I will say though that I have never been to what is called a “charismatic Mass”.

As to the OP I guess I would have to say that I think the charismatic movement is not a response to anything but the Holy Spirit.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

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I had previously posted the following from RS-2004. Have we gotten to the pt. where we need our Pope to hit us over the head with the directives being issued from Rome. Do we need everything spelled out to the letter–naming every conceivable abuse, innovation that we the laity can think of and who is causing it.

[114.] “At Sunday Masses in parishes, insofar as parishes are ‘Eucharistic communities’, it is customary to find different groups, movements, associations, and even the smaller religious communities present in the parish.”[202] While it is permissible that Mass should be celebrated for particular groups according to the norm of law,[203] these groups are nevertheless not exempt from the faithful observance of the liturgical norms.

No, but I’m not sure the orans falls into that category, as it is an ancient position of prayer. I know how I feel about it, how Netmil(name removed by moderator) feels about it, etc., but are we SURE that the Church regards its use a violation of a liturgical norm?

 

[Walking_Home]

No, but I’m not sure the orans falls into that category, as it is an ancient position of prayer. I know how I feel about it, how Netmil(name removed by moderator) feels about it, etc., but are we SURE that the Church regards its use a violation of a liturgical norm?

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JKirkLVNV—I don’t understand why you are doing this. Playing this circular game. The orans has been discussed to no end. Even Card. Arinze when he spoke in Detroit said the Orans was for the priest. No where in the GIRM does it call for the laity to do the orans.

 

[colliric]

And yet: Pope Benedict KNEW what the Neochatecumenal Way was doing in their liturgies and firmly (but charitibly) brought them back into line. He surely, being Joseph Ratzinger, knows about the Charismatics, but has not issued any directive to stop with the raising of hands at “charismatic masses,” or anything else that goes with that possible charism. Has anyone heard him make a statement?

my point exactly.