Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an effective response to Charismatic Evanglicals?

[Damascus]

Until my questions and concerns are adressed and answered I will keep posting this post in any and all charasmatic threads I see in the future.

Thats not a threat, its a promise to those here who want the answers as well, and never get them.

Feel free to re-post that post in entirety with my name on it if need be if I miss a thread.

See if you have any better luck than I have had since I have been posting on this forum. So far - zippo.

 

[Melchior]

Does anyone know much about this highly exuberant and evangelical, yet completely catholic sub-denomination of our faith?

how did it come about and was it after Vatican II liberalized mass more?

Is it literally the catholic church’s response to the growing evangelical protestant churches which were gaining members who were ex-catholic because the church wasn’t evangelical and charismatic enough?

It was Catholic adopting the most recent Protestants on the blocks practices. It began with them and the manner in which Catholics practice it is Identical the tongues speaking and how it sounds the getting emotionally worked up etc. One cannot reasonably deny that Charismatic experience as we know it was uniquely Pentacostal/Charismatic protestant and Charismatic Catholics adopted the form and practices - it was learned by Catholic from going to non-Catholic revival meetings. Like it or not. That is the history. It looks nothing like the descriptions in the New Testament in either case and seems to resemble St. Paul’s warning than anything else.

Mel

 

[Contarini]

Does anyone know much about this highly exuberant and evangelical, yet completely catholic sub-denomination of our faith?

I think “sub-denomination” is an unfortunate term.

As for charismatic Catholics, I’ll say this: over and over again I’ve been impressed by a Catholic (such as Fr. Benedict Groeschel) only to discover that they were linked to the charismatic movement in some way. It seems that much of what is good (at least what I perceive as good) in Catholicism today comes from this movement.

But that’s just one Protestant’s perspective.

Edwin

 

[netmilsmom]

I think “sub-denomination” is an unfortunate term.

As for charismatic Catholics, I’ll say this: over and over again I’ve been impressed by a Catholic (such as Fr. Benedict Groeschel) only to discover that they were linked to the charismatic movement in some way. It seems that much of what is good (at least what I perceive as good) in Catholicism today comes from this movement.

But that’s just one Protestant’s perspective.

Edwin

The reason you see so many good older Catholics linked to this movement is because it was the “in” thing to do in the 70’s.

As you can see, most of them are no longer in the movement.

I used to disco dance. Recently, I went to a wedding where all the 20 somethings were disco dancing. They were all sooooo impressed with me.

But let me tell you, I understand that the “in” thing at the moment is not always the right thing,

 

[colliric]

Hello!

There is a big difference between a Movement being approved and certain specific “Movements” being approved.

The Catholic Charasmatic Movement being approved does not mean that everything they do is approved, of course. This movement was intended to edify the Church.

Does anyone know if it in fact has done so? Or has it led many out of the Church into the Evangelical Charasmatic Churches that are really on fire with the Spirit?

No it has both benefited the catholic faith, with evanglicals warming to it, and damaged it, with catholics warming to evanglical churches, therefore it’s affect has been neutral, Just like in how in countries where the England Anglican Church exists basically as a neo-Catholic Church. This movement, called Anglo-Catholicism, did not harm or add to the original Catholic Church itself. It can be considered a “bridge to the Roman Catholic Church” and also “an anglican church for ex-catholics”. In fact it gave the Catholic Church one of it’s greatest apologist converts of the 19th century. The CCR has likewise not harmed nor added to the church.

Damascus:

I often ask and never get answers about particulars in this movement.

Who is qualifyed to translate these tongues? How do they get their credentials? Has there ever been any prophecy? Have there been documented cases of healings? (on that some have given me names of books to read- I want offical documents not someones book loaded with tons of observations) Personal observations then pop up all over the thread, and not once has anyone pointed to me anything documented, its all hearsay.

As far as I ascertained, the person who spoke in tongues is also the one who translates what they felt when they spoke in tongues. I am not knowledgeable enough about the healing question you asked.

Praying in tongues pops up then. No, I am not addressing praying in tongues.

I am addressing speaking in tongues. Who is a Liason? Do they have to be Catholic? What do they do? How do they get their credentials?

See my above answer.

Then I ask about Healing Masses. No one ever gives me a straight answer on that whole business.

If people want to be involved with this that is their business, fine with me.

But I have some real concerns about it and prefer to avoid it. Will I be able to is the question?

A healing mass is simply a Latin Rite mass with the preist asking hurt people to come forward for prayers for healing near the end.

I should have the right to chose whether this is something I want to be mixed up in or not. Many people lived their entire lives never hearing about it or being affected by it in the Catholic Church and I ought to be as lucky as they were too.

Of cause you have the right to choose which Roman Catholic Church parish you wish to attend. CCR being Roman Catholic is one place you can feel free to attend as a practicing catholic or you may go to a Latin Rite parish or a Tridentine rite parish or an eastern rite parish.

In fact if you attend a CCR parish you are attending a Latin Rite parish, simply with more enthusiasm for mass and with healing prayers at the end of their masses. If you happen to be stuck in the middle of nowhere on a sunday morning and a CCR church is the only catholic church you can get to, you should look past minor differences and simply go because it’s the only catholic church in the vicinity. Better Catholic than protestant.

I have tried to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge, I hope it is usefull to you.

 

[happygal]

And yet: Pope Benedict KNEW what the Neochatecumenal Way was doing in their liturgies and firmly (but charitibly) brought them back into line. He surely, being Joseph Ratzinger, knows about the Charismatics, but has not issued any directive to stop with the raising of hands at “charismatic masses,” or anything else that goes with that possible charism. Has anyone heard him make a statement?

I don’t understand why is there a problem of raising hand to pray during Charismatic Masses!! If you look at raising our hand when we pray are like we surrendering humbly ourselve to God. In fact during a non Charismatic Mass which i attended couple of weeks ago, the priest also raised both his hand high up…i believe God does not say that you need to keep certain posture when you pray, so that he will listen to your prayer…etc in fact most importantly is our prayer cannot be faking, it should be coming our inwardly from our heart and not how well you present yourself during prayer… A book might look nice with an attractive cover, but the content inside might not look as good as the cover from outside. So God only want to look at our heart

 

[Walking_Home]

I don’t understand why is there a problem of raising hand to pray during Charismatic Masses!! If you look at raising our hand when we pray are like we surrendering humbly ourselve to God. In fact during a non Charismatic Mass which i attended couple of weeks ago, the priest also raised both his hand high up…i believe God does not say that you need to keep certain posture when you pray, so that he will listen to your prayer…etc in fact most importantly is our prayer cannot be faking, it should be coming our inwardly from our heart and not how well you present yourself during prayer… A book might look nice with an attractive cover, but the content inside might not look as good as the cover from outside. So God only want to look at our heart

---

God speaks thru the Church. The priest is to raise his hands in prayer—we the laity are not. When the Church says that we are not to mimick the priest–we submit to Her and to God.

 

[dumspirospero]

Good Post

The dead worst thing anyone can do is to try to be what someone else is.

The Catholics need to stop trying to be anything but Catholic.

The Charismatic movement was an attempt to "bring all of us together’ and blur the lines between Catholics and others.

The places where The Catholic Church is growing is the places where orthodoxy reins. As soon as people realize that Protestants do Protestantism so much better than the Catholics and get back to the orthodoxy, we will grow again. and are in some places

But if you could walk into a wonderful Protestant Community of Charismatics or a wishy washy waterdown version of it at the Catholic church, what would you do?

 

[dumspirospero]

I am sure I will get flamed for this…but this is my God honest opinion…which I am entitled to…I do not get any good vibes from the CCR…I know people will say…“oh…the Pope approves of them”,etc…so what…The Pope is fallible you know, unless the requirments are met for infallibility…the other priest and bishops are definitely fallible…I am in no way an opponent of Vatican II or the New mass or anything like that…but folks, just witnessing some of the things that take place within this movement just scare me…and I tell you, it is possible for movements NOT LEAD by The Holy Spirit to appear great and fruitfull, as in order to lead those away from orthodoxy. I will close with an excerpt I found from an article about the CCR…I can’t remember the title of it or where I found it…but I think it summarizes pretty well:

*The Catholic Charismatic Movement is a blighted tree bearing poisonous fruit, sown by the Devil among Protestants and transplanted into the Church after Vatican II. The delirium of contemporary Churchmen has watered it, and the lack of an adequate Catholic formation among priests and laity has cleared and tilled the fertile soil in which it has grown. More people eat of its deadly fruit yearly, and the vulnerable young, so eager for the profound knowledge of God and the sense of the supernatural denied them by the Conciliar Church, are especially at risk. A generation of children is growing up thinking of Charismatics as perfectly normal (or even superior) Catholics. *
**
This fruit is truly a seed of destruction and one of the most perilous fruits offered to man since the first fruit offered to the first Eve by the same serpent. May the new Eve, the Blessed Virgin Mary, to whom it has been given to crush the serpent’s head, intercede for the Church and free the world from the peril in which it now lies as a result of the Catholic Charismatic Movement!

 

[dumspirospero]

I agree

Damascus:
Hello!

There is a big difference between a Movement being approved and certain specific “Movements” being approved.

The Catholic Charasmatic Movement being approved does not mean that everything they do is approved, of course. This movement was intended to edify the Church.

Does anyone know if it in fact has done so? Or has it led many out of the Church into the Evangelical Charasmatic Churches that are really on fire with the Spirit?

I often ask and never get answers about particulars in this movement.

Who is qualifyed to translate these tongues? How do they get their credentials? Has there ever been any prophecy? Have there been documented cases of healings? (on that some have given me names of books to read- I want offical documents not someones book loaded with tons of observations) Personal observations then pop up all over the thread, and not once has anyone pointed to me anything documented, its all hearsay.

Praying in tongues pops up then. No, I am not addressing praying in tongues.

I am addressing speaking in tongues. Who is a Liason? Do they have to be Catholic? What do they do? How do they get their credentials?

Then I ask about Healing Masses. No one ever gives me a straight answer on that whole business.

If people want to be involved with this that is their business, fine with me.

But I have some real concerns about it and prefer to avoid it. Will I be able to is the question?

I should have the right to chose whether this is something I want to be mixed up in or not. Many people lived their entire lives never hearing about it or being affected by it in the Catholic Church and I ought to be as lucky as they were too.

 

[netmilsmom]

I don’t understand why is there a problem of raising hand to pray during Charismatic Masses!!

What you are speaking of is a directive called “hands extended”.
It is a directive given to the Priest in the Holy Mass.

Could you please show me the Vatican document directing the laity to use the “Hands Extended” posture?

 

[netmilsmom]

I…“oh…the Pope approves of them”,etc…so what…The Pope is fallible you know, unless the requirments are met for infallibility…

Some people forget this.

 

[Karin]

Used in private prayer it has worked its way into the Liturgy. It is a legitimate gesture to use when praying, as history shows, however, it is a private gesture when used in the Mass and in some cases conflicts with the system of signs which the rubrics are intended to protect. The Mass is not a private or merely human ceremony. The symbology of the actions, including such gestures, is definite and precise, and reflects the sacramental character of the Church’s prayer. As the Holy See has recently pointed out, confusion has entered the Church about the hierarchical nature of her worship, and this gesture certainly contributes to that confusion when it conflicts with the ordered sign language of the Mass.

the rest of the article is pretty good as well
ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

 

[Karin]

I am sure I will get flamed for this…but this is my God honest opinion…which I am entitled to…I do not get any good vibes from the CCR…I know people will say…“oh…the Pope approves of them”,etc…so what…The Pope is fallible you know, unless the requirments are met for infallibility…the other priest and bishops are definitely fallible…I am in no way an opponent of Vatican II or the New mass or anything like that…but folks, just witnessing some of the things that take place within this movement just scare me…and I tell you, it is possible for movements NOT LEAD by The Holy Spirit to appear great and fruitfull, as in order to lead those away from orthodoxy. I will close with an excerpt I found from an article about the CCR…I can’t remember the title of it or where I found it…but I think it summarizes pretty well:

*The Catholic Charismatic Movement is a blighted tree bearing poisonous fruit, sown by the Devil among Protestants and transplanted into the Church after Vatican II. The delirium of contemporary Churchmen has watered it, and the lack of an adequate Catholic formation among priests and laity has cleared and tilled the fertile soil in which it has grown. More people eat of its deadly fruit yearly, and the vulnerable young, so eager for the profound knowledge of God and the sense of the supernatural denied them by the Conciliar Church, are especially at risk. A generation of children is growing up thinking of Charismatics as perfectly normal (or even superior) Catholics. *

This fruit is truly a seed of destruction and one of the most perilous fruits offered to man since the first fruit offered to the first Eve by the same serpent. May the new Eve, the Blessed Virgin Mary, to whom it has been given to crush the serpent’s head, intercede for the Church and free the world from the peril in which it now lies as a result of the Catholic Charismatic Movement!

NO flaming here smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_49.gif , but to keep you from getting in trouble… here is the source for the quote above (in red)…
**John Vennari, "Close-ups of the Charismatic Movement
[Tradition in Action, 2002], 175 pp.).
**

smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb097&pp=ZN

 

[dumspirospero]

I just wanted to reply to my own post to apologize in advance if anything I said was offensive…Like I said, the text in red was a quote from an unknown source I found a while back…It was not meant to be used to alienate or offend anyone…however, I used it because I personally feel that it is accurate…which I am entitled to feel…and if you don’t agree, I respect your point of view as well. God Bless, Sonny

I am sure I will get flamed for this…but this is my God honest opinion…which I am entitled to…I do not get any good vibes from the CCR…I know people will say…“oh…the Pope approves of them”,etc…so what…The Pope is fallible you know, unless the requirments are met for infallibility…the other priest and bishops are definitely fallible…I am in no way an opponent of Vatican II or the New mass or anything like that…but folks, just witnessing some of the things that take place within this movement just scare me…and I tell you, it is possible for movements NOT LEAD by The Holy Spirit to appear great and fruitfull, as in order to lead those away from orthodoxy. I will close with an excerpt I found from an article about the CCR…I can’t remember the title of it or where I found it…but I think it summarizes pretty well:

*The Catholic Charismatic Movement is a blighted tree bearing poisonous fruit, sown by the Devil among Protestants and transplanted into the Church after Vatican II. The delirium of contemporary Churchmen has watered it, and the lack of an adequate Catholic formation among priests and laity has cleared and tilled the fertile soil in which it has grown. More people eat of its deadly fruit yearly, and the vulnerable young, so eager for the profound knowledge of God and the sense of the supernatural denied them by the Conciliar Church, are especially at risk. A generation of children is growing up thinking of Charismatics as perfectly normal (or even superior) Catholics. *

This fruit is truly a seed of destruction and one of the most perilous fruits offered to man since the first fruit offered to the first Eve by the same serpent. May the new Eve, the Blessed Virgin Mary, to whom it has been given to crush the serpent’s head, intercede for the Church and free the world from the peril in which it now lies as a result of the Catholic Charismatic Movement!

 

[dumspirospero]

Thank you very much…I thought that was his name, but I didn’t want to post it and be incorrect and look like a fool. Thanks a lot for the help. God Bless, Sonny

NO flaming here smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_49.gif , but to keep you from getting in trouble… here is the source for the quote above (in red)…
**John Vennari, "Close-ups of the Charismatic Movement **
[Tradition in Action, 2002], 175 pp.).

[smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb097&pp=ZN](WallpapersbyMyWay)

 

[paramedicgirl]

---

JKirkLVNV—I don’t understand why you are doing this. Playing this circular game. The orans has been discussed to no end. Even Card. Arinze when he spoke in Detroit said the Orans was for the priest. No where in the GIRM does it call for the laity to do the orans.

The GIRM says it’s a posture prescribed for the priest only. That should end it, no?

 

[netmilsmom]

NO flaming here smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_49.gif , but to keep you from getting in trouble… here is the source for the quote above (in red)…
**John Vennari, "Close-ups of the Charismatic Movement
[Tradition in Action, 2002], 175 pp.).
**

You are the best!
And let me add, I had Charismatic women come and take over a really nice parish with a large senior community. They made changes in the way we worshiped during winters when the Seniors were down south. Suddenly, handholding and gesturing became the norm in the parish.

The Seniors didn’t like it but had no clue that it wasn’t new rules. (they lived through VII). We started bleeding parishioners, to the point that we were going to be “clustered” with another parish.

Who did they want to talk to for finding how to bring people into the parish? Not my very orthodox parish that is growing by leaps and bounds but the local Lutheran church!!!

I’m glad I escaped.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I just read the two books by Father Amorth, the head exorcist from Rome. He says the charismatics have their place in the church and are able to assist with exorcisms. He says true charismatics are humble, and do not show off. He says they have been given a gift of the Holy Spirit that they are to share with others, not show off to others.

 

[Karin]

Thank you very much…I thought that was his name, but I didn’t want to post it and be incorrect and look like a fool. Thanks a lot for the help. God Bless, Sonny

Sonny…
You are very welcome…the least I could do