Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an effective response to Charismatic Evanglicals?

[JKirkLVNV]

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Excuse me puzzleannie—but there has always been a genuine movement of the Holy Spirit within the Church—the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within Her. She can well go forth in Her mission— without all these movements pulling Her this way and that—Overshadowing the true indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Not to be pedanctic, but your observation (entirely true) does not preclude Annie’s from being true. The Holy Spirit DOES indwell and move in the Church…and throughout salvation history, the Holy Spirit has wrought specific things, things that stand out. In between those times, no one questioned whether or not the Holy Spirit was still with the Church. It may be that the Charismatic movement is one of those things the Holy Spirit has wrought.

I’m not a proponent of the charismatic movement. I don’t think it was introduced to gloss over differences between Protestants and Catholics, but then I don’t think that every single thing Protestants do is evil or wrong. Something is evil or wrong because it’s evil or wrong, something is right and good because it’s right and good. To say it’s bad because it originated with Protestants is to commit the Genesis Error, that something it incorrect because of its source.

In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter and the Apostles were hauled before the Sanhedrin for proclaiming the Faith. The respected Rabbi Gamaliel rose and urged that the Apostles be released (they were), saying"If this enterprise, this movement of theirs, is of human origin, it will break up of its own accord; but if it does in fact come from God, you will be unable to destroy them. Take care not to find yourselves fighting against God."

I’m not a charismatic because I’m not. I don’t believe in Charismatic masses, I just believe in Mass. Some of these folks, as Annie has stated, seem to have deep-ended. In the end, however, if it’s from God, then we’d best take care not to find ourselves fighting against God. Treat it like a private revelation: we are not bound to all speak in tongues or raise our hands when we pray anymore than we are required to believe anything that is no a part of the deposit of faith.

 

[Walking_Home]

We of the inbetween generation and younger have the best of both worlds, I think. We have the zeal and drive of the charismatic movement, coupled with the gifts of the Spirit for the purpose of evangelization, with the orthodoxy, love of the traditional aspect of the faith many of the hippie generation and up reject.

Some of the young, charismatic priests are packing them in like sardines. All done with reverence, humility, and orthodox to the letter.

This is why I despise labels. It puts everyone in a box. There are pros and cons to every point of view. Personally, I have combined the heart of the charismatic style with the orthodoxy of the traditional style. I believe that makes a perfect combo. The renewal is all about that, and I believe it is the future of the church. Sorry, traddies, but you’re just a fad, and frankly your cynicism and contstant harping gets old to people after a while. It makes it all so disingenuous.

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Here it is----the Churches life and tradition for hundreds of years —was just a fad. Now these movements are doing it right.

 

[corvidae]

How does the Church worship walking home?

AMGD : That in all things, God may be glorified.

That is what the Church wishes, that in all things God may be glorified.

I know some Charismatics who love the Latin mass, and some who do not. Is there anythign wrong with worshiping with your hands up, or with your eyes closed? There are some here who know charismatics who refuse to kneel, while I know charismatics who completely prostrate themselves if they feel it will not take away from others prayers and worship (that is, if they believe it will not distract people).

Look at Thomas Aquinas, he wrote the summa theologia, a reasoned and and in my opinion, fairly dry discussion on many theological issues. He also wrote Tantum Ergo, O Salutaris, and Lauda Sion. Which one is written the way the Church wants?

If I were to answer, I would say, Both. If it gives glory to God, then it is the way the Church wants it to be.

If a Charismatic has false ideas, by all means, correct them, but if you simply do not like that they have their hands up, or are emotional when they pray, then ignore them.

I think that there are some who wish for what an old professor of mine said. “Only a Catholic priest can say: Let us make a joyful noise unto the Lord, without emotion.”

There is nothing wrong with emotion, which is what I think is the thing most think of when they think Charismatics. I also think that many think emotional equals disrespectful, but this is not always the case.

Sorry, that was kinda rambling.

A lone Raven

 

[Walking_Home]

How does the Church worship walking home?
AMGD : That in all things, God may be glorified.

That is what the Church wishes, that in all things God may be glorified.

I know some Charismatics who love the Latin mass, and some who do not. Is there anythign wrong with worshiping with your hands up, or with your eyes closed? There are some here who know charismatics who refuse to kneel, while I know charismatics who completely prostrate themselves if they feel it will not take away from others prayers and worship (that is, if they believe it will not distract people).

Look at Thomas Aquinas, he wrote the summa theologia, a reasoned and and in my opinion, fairly dry discussion on many theological issues. He also wrote Tantum Ergo, O Salutaris, and Lauda Sion. Which one is written the way the Church wants?

If I were to answer, I would say, Both. If it gives glory to God, then it is the way the Church wants it to be.

If a Charismatic has false ideas, by all means, correct them, but if you simply do not like that they have their hands up, or are emotional when they pray, then ignore them.

I think that there are some who wish for what an old professor of mine said. “Only a Catholic priest can say: Let us make a joyful noise unto the Lord, without emotion.”

There is nothing wrong with emotion, which is what I think is the thing most think of when they think Charismatics. I also think that many think emotional equals disrespectful, but this is not always the case.

Sorry, that was kinda rambling.

A lone Raven

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How does the Church worship—with the mind of our Lord Christ. This does not mean that we are free to improvise–change–adapt–because it “moves” us. The Mass is the Church’s prayer and She guides us in this prayer thru the GIRM , and documents like RS-2004, etc. This is worshipping with the mind of the Church

 

[corvidae]

As far as I know it is liberal Catholics, not Charismatic Catholics who seek to change the mass.

The Charismatics I know worship at the mass, they just do it with more emotion, and some outward signs that sometimes can be uncomfortable, like raised hands and swaying.

I am asking you how the way that they worship (emotion filled prayer, song, etc.) that is wrong?

If they change things without permission they should be corrected. IF not, what is wrong?

A lone Raven

 

[netmilsmom]

no, it wast not an attempt to blur the lines between Catholics and others, it was, as I said, a response to the genuine movement of the Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church

the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is orthodox and ecclesial. Yes, some who participated in it did go off the rails, as did some participating in the worship and life of the Church in general in the last few decades. The excesses of a few do not condemn the entire movement, which is now among those who remain involved in it, one of the most orthodox groups within the Church.

Maybe in your area, but in my area they sure were blurring the lines.
Led by the Sisters of St. Joseph in Rocky River, they not only blurred Catholic and Protestant, but Catholic and New Age as well.

I’m sorry, you can say that they are the most orthodox and while that is your experience, it’s not all over the country.

The Charismatics would never make it at the Grotto and that is what is growing by leaps and bounds.

 

[netmilsmom]

Sorry, traddies, but you’re just a fad, and frankly your cynicism and contstant harping gets old to people after a while. It makes it all so disingenuous.

I think you better talk to that big traddie over in Rome. He seems to disagree with you.

And hon, if you think “traddies” are a fad (eventhough you detest labels) come on over to my parish. We “traddies” are breeding you out.

Over and above that, while the Charismatics have attempted to take over some of the parishes here in Detroit (one that I left, for example) we are growing while they are waning.

I think you might even be surprised how the “traddies” are growing even in Steubenville. The Charismatics are not. I’ll be staying down there in May. Going to a “traddie” mass!

 

[Walking_Home]

As far as I know it is liberal Catholics, not Charismatic Catholics who seek to change the mass.

The Charismatics I know worship at the mass, they just do it with more emotion, and some outward signs that sometimes can be uncomfortable, like raised hands and swaying.

I am asking you how the way that they worship (emotion filled prayer, song, etc.) that is wrong?

If they change things without permission they should be corrected. IF not, what is wrong?

A lone Raven

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If those outward signs are not called for in the GIRM for the laity to do—they are not to be done. The charismatics are not exempt from the GIRM. In reality there is no such thing as a charismatic Mass.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[114.] “At Sunday Masses in parishes, insofar as parishes are ‘Eucharistic communities’, it is customary to find different groups, movements, associations, and even the smaller religious communities present in the parish.”[202] While it is permissible that Mass should be celebrated for particular groups according to the norm of law,[203] these groups are nevertheless not exempt from the faithful observance of the liturgical norms.

 

[corvidae]

netmil(name removed by moderator),
I hope that while you are there you can meet some charismatics who may change your thoughts of them.

I think it is important to remember that the Charismatics who do pray in a style similar to Francis of Assisi are being traditional at the same time as being charismatic.

To tell you the truth, Stuebenville is where I met most of the Charismatics that I know, I agree with some of them, and do not agree with some. I think your experiance will be similar to mine.

A lone Raven

 

[netmilsmom]

netmil(name removed by moderator),
I hope that while you are there you can meet some charismatics who may change your thoughts of them.

I think it is important to remember that the Charismatics who do pray in a style similar to Francis of Assisi are being traditional at the same time as being charismatic.

To tell you the truth, Stuebenville is where I met most of the Charismatics that I know, I agree with some of them, and do not agree with some. I think your experiance will be similar to mine.

A lone Raven

There will not be a single Charismatic that will change my opinion of the movement. While each one is praying to God in their individual way, the general movement has done so much to blur the lines with other religions, that it is a pity.

 

[colliric]

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If those outward signs are not called for in the GIRM for the laity to do—they are not to be done. The charismatics are not exempt from the GIRM. In reality there is no such thing as a charismatic Mass.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[114.] “At Sunday Masses in parishes, insofar as parishes are ‘Eucharistic communities’, it is customary to find different groups, movements, associations, and even the smaller religious communities present in the parish.”[202] While it is permissible that Mass should be celebrated for particular groups according to the norm of law,[203] these groups are nevertheless not exempt from the faithful observance of the liturgical norms.

If they are “Not to be done”, why does the Vatican support their existence within the Catholic Church?

To me it is because they are in fact following the liturgical norms, but are doing it with simply more enthusiasm.

The CCR church I attended this Sunday was a clearly catholic church and followed all the doctrines to a tee, prayers to the virgin Mary, confession and kneeling for the mass.

They are catholic first and foremost, charismatic second.

 

[VociMike]

What I truly don’t understand is why charismatics feel that they must adopt distinctive postures of praying, and distinctive types of music, and further, why it is that both those postures and those types of music have clear links to modern American Evangelical and Pentecostal Protestantism? Is the Holy Spirit really telling them that they should pray and worship more like American Evangelicals and Pentecostals and less like traditional Catholics?

If the Catholic Church is the true Church, what are we to make of the Holy Spirit’s apparent preference for American Evangelical and Pentecostal style prayer and worship over that of the traditional Church?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

What I truly don’t understand is why charismatics feel that they must adopt distinctive postures of praying, and distinctive types of music, and further, why it is that both those postures and those types of music have clear links to modern American Evangelical and Pentecostal Protestantism? Is the Holy Spirit really telling them that they should pray and worship more like American Evangelicals and Pentecostals and less like traditional Catholics?

If the Catholic Church is the true Church, what are we to make of the Holy Spirit’s apparent preference for American Evangelical and Pentecostal style prayer and worship over that of the traditional Church?

The orans posture is an ANCIENT posture of prayer, once commonly practiced (I don’t know, but I assume we take it from our Jewish forbears, though other religions may have used it as well). Thus, it has antecedents in our own faith.

That’s not to say it’s not problematic. I tend to think it blurs the lines between the priesthood and the laity and I also tend toward coming down on the side of Walking Home’s argument, ie, we cannot simply hive off and do what we feel like doing in Mass. But once again, it’s a mistake to say “we’re doing it like THEM,” as if that’s a bad thing. The Church has pulled into her culture and life things from other sources. And “traditional” Catholics have not always done “it” one way.

 

[colliric]

The orans posture is an ANCIENT posture of prayer, once commonly practiced (I don’t know, but I assume we take it from our Jewish forbears, though other religions may have used it as well). Thus, it has antecedents in our own faith.

That’s not to say it’s not problematic. I tend to think it blurs the lines between the priesthood and the laity and I also tend toward coming down on the side of Walking Home’s argument, ie, we cannot simply hive off and do what we feel like doing in Mass. But once again, it’s a mistake to say “we’re doing it like THEM,” as if that’s a bad thing. The Church has pulled into her culture and life things from other sources. And “traditional” Catholics have not always done “it” one way.

yes I realise say it was possibly a response to protestant churches was incorrect.

 

[Walking_Home]

If they are “Not to be done”, why does the Vatican support their existence within the Catholic Church?

To me it is because they are in fact following the liturgical norms, but are doing it with simply more enthusiasm.

The CCR church I attended this Sunday was a clearly catholic church and followed all the doctrines to a tee, prayers to the virgin Mary, confession and kneeling for the mass.

They are catholic first and foremost, charismatic second.

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Why do you think the Church has had to issue documents like RS-2004. If this enthusiasm is pushing them beyond the GIRM and RS-2004 it is not to be done.

Since they are Catholic first—they should abstain from anything not called for in the norms.

 

[VociMike]

The orans posture is an ANCIENT posture of prayer, once commonly practiced (I don’t know, but I assume we take it from our Jewish forbears, though other religions may have used it as well). Thus, it has antecedents in our own faith.

That’s not to say it’s not problematic. I tend to think it blurs the lines between the priesthood and the laity and I also tend toward coming down on the side of Walking Home’s argument, ie, we cannot simply hive off and do what we feel like doing in Mass. But once again, it’s a mistake to say “we’re doing it like THEM,” as if that’s a bad thing.

I did not say that it was a bad thing, but I did ask why the Holy Spirit seems to be showing such a preference for styles of prayer and worship and liturgical music which are so identified with American Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism, and so foreign to centuries (at least) of Church practice? I think it’s a fair question – why does the Holy Spirit seem to be insisting that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal look so much like recent American born-and-bred Protestantism?

 

[colliric]

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Why do you think the Church has had to issue documents like RS-2004. ** If this enthusiasm is pushing them beyond the GIRM and RS-2004 it is not to be done.**

Since they are Catholic first—they should abstain from anything not called for in the norms.

Well it isn’t, otherwise the Vatican would have said so itself. They have been supporting and fostering this group as a whole because this group in general(of cause you are going to get a few bad eggs who take things too far) keeps all catholic doctrines that other more orthodox catholic churches also follow.

 

[netmilsmom]

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Why do you think the Church has had to issue documents like RS-2004. If this enthusiasm is pushing them beyond the GIRM and RS-2004 it is not to be done.

Since they are Catholic first—they should abstain from anything not called for in the norms.

Amen!

 

[netmilsmom]

Well it isn’t, otherwise the Vatican would have said so itself. They have been supporting and fostering this group as a whole because this group in general(of cause you are going to get a few bad eggs) keeps all catholic doctrines that other more orthodox catholic churches also follow.

The Vatican is going to handle this movement the same way it’s handled the Liberal Bishops.
Eventually, it’s going to die out.
And thank you Holy Lord, is waning already.

 

[netmilsmom]

The orans posture is an ANCIENT posture of prayer, once commonly practiced (I don’t know, but I assume we take it from our Jewish forbears, though other religions may have used it as well). Thus, it has antecedents in our own faith.

That’s not to say it’s not problematic. I tend to think it blurs the lines between the priesthood and the laity and I also tend toward coming down on the side of Walking Home’s argument, ie, we cannot simply hive off and do what we feel like doing in Mass. But once again, it’s a mistake to say “we’re doing it like THEM,” as if that’s a bad thing. The Church has pulled into her culture and life things from other sources. And “traditional” Catholics have not always done “it” one way.

Traditionally in the Catholic Church, the Orans is a priestly posture, so either we are borrowing from another denomination when the laity use it or usurping the priestly posture.

No matter what…

Happy Little Christmas!