Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an effective response to Charismatic Evanglicals?

[dumspirospero]

Thank you very much for your undeserved and kind comments…yes, I am seriously discerning a calling to the priesthood…however, I have heard they are turning away scores and scores of well qualified men, because they are more traditional than they would like…but if it is God’s will, it will happen, no matter who trys to stand in my way.

Just an FYI…I am very impressed with your posts as well…I have found great joy reading them…I also find great joy reading netil(name removed by moderator) and paramedicgirl as well…God Bless.

Judica me, Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta: ab homine iniquo et doloso erue me.

you know the more I read your posts the moer I like you…Did I read correctly that you are thinking of joining the seminary…if that is true we are truly blessed!

 

[Karin]

Thank you very much for your undeserved and kind comments…yes, I am seriously discerning a calling to the priesthood…however, I have heard they are turning away scores and scores of well qualified men, because they are more traditional than they would like…but if it is God’s will, it will happen, no matter who trys to stand in my way.

 

[MaryD7]

So…I guess Catholics prior to Duquesne Weekend" in 1967 were just not filled with The Holy Ghost…nor open to the Charisms/Gifts that the Holy Ghost pours out on us…I am sorry…I don’t buy into it. Does that make me a bad Catholic?

In no way did I imply that. In fact, I’ve read many of your posts and you seem to be a devout, traditional Catholic. (The only reason I say ‘seem’ is because I don’t know you.) But I didn’t have your life … mine comes from a whole different direction and my experiences are going to be different than yours … just like anybody else. So that doesn’t make anybody wrong. It just makes our journey to God our own.

 

[dumspirospero]

Hey Mary…I am sorry I worded my post wrong…I didn’t mean to make it sound like I thought you implied that…I apologize…I was really asking a question, as to whether or not you thought that, because it is a question I have often asked myself…because it is just strange these gifts would manifest themselves after so long a period of time…you know what I mean? I am a convert as well…but I guess our paths were different. I wanted to get away from all the stuff in the Protestant Churches that you can find in the CCR circles…I was drawn to the tradition, splendor, history…and most importantly, the Truth…that can only be found within the Catholic Church…to be honest, seeing the stuff that goes on in the Charismatic Evangelical and Charismatic Catholic Churches scares me…it makes me wonder if it is truly the spirit working or if it is something else, because it is hard for me believe that the Catholic Church would be void of spiritual gifts until the 1960’s, if what we believe about the Catholic Church to be true…it is the one true Church. I don’t have any problem with the state of the Church until the 1960’s…I don’t understand why there are those that claim we need this “renewal” to keep the Church young and invigorated and growing…I feel like it was doing a good job on its own…I know certainly the number of vocations was higher and Mass attendance was higher.

In no way did I imply that. In fact, I’ve read many of your posts and you seem to be a devout, traditional Catholic. (The only reason I say ‘seem’ is because I don’t know you.) But I didn’t have your life … mine comes from a whole different direction and my experiences are going to be different than yours … just like anybody else. So that doesn’t make anybody wrong. It just makes our journey to God our own.

 

[MaryD7]

Hey Mary…I am sorry I worded my post wrong…I didn’t mean to make it sound like I thought you implied that…I apologize…I was really asking a question, as to whether or not you thought that, because it is a question I have often asked myself…because it is just strange these gifts would manifest themselves after so long a period of time…you know what I mean? I am a convert as well…but I guess our paths were different. I wanted to get away from all the stuff in the Protestant Churches that you can find in the CCR circles.

Thanks for the apology but it isn’t necessary. I’m relieved that I didn’t somehow step on your toes.

I remember asking my mother (a Fundamental Baptist) after I had my first encounter with a Pentacostal student in college, what all of this speaking in tongues, etc., was about. She told me that it wasn’t real because why would the gifts come into existence now when they were dormant for so long? I pretty much dropped the subject and went on my merry way, until I myself experienced a Charismatic Mass. Mind you, I wasn’t RC at the time so going to a Catholic Mass was, in and of itself, a big deal. What I experienced was real. It changed the direction of my life. I experienced healing that I had sought for so long. I experienced forgiveness … for myself, and for others.

You know, maybe you are so strong in your character and in your beliefs that you don’t need experiences such as this to give you direction. But I needed this and I am so thankful that, for whatever reason it is, the gifts have manifested themselves again. Maybe because the state of the world is such as it is, God has decided to turn on some bigger guns on hard to work cases (such as myself) to draw us to Him.

 

[Contarini]

I wanted to get away from all the stuff in the Protestant Churches that you can find in the CCR circles…I was drawn to the tradition, splendor, history…and most importantly, the Truth…that can only be found within the Catholic Church…

There are definitely two kinds of converts–those who want to get away from their native traditions and those who want to bring them with them. In all honesty, I think the former is a dangerous attitude, particularly when we’re talking about intra-Christian “conversions.” The Pope (following the teaching of Vatican II and of his predecessors) has made it clear that he does not want an “ecumenism of return” in which Protestants simply abandon their own traditions, but rather a “spiritual ecumenism” in which we grow together on the basis of the faith in Christ we have in common. That doesn’t preclude individual conversion–you may well be much holier than I because you had the courage and decisiveness to take that step, which I have never been able to bring myself to do. But I urge you not to give in to a simple spirit of reaction. You are disagreeing with your own Pope in so doing (although admittedly it’s your prerogative to do so when he isn’t speaking ex cathedra).

to be honest, seeing the stuff that goes on in the Charismatic Evangelical and Charismatic Catholic Churches scares me…it makes me wonder if it is truly the spirit working or if it is something else, because it is hard for me believe that the Catholic Church would be void of spiritual gifts until the 1960’s, if what we believe about the Catholic Church to be true…it is the one true Church.

If charismatic Catholics teach this, then they are indeed promoting schism and heresy. However, I see nothing problematic in the claim that the charismatic movement represents a particular manifestation of the Spirit. Read about the early days of the mendicant orders in the 13th century sometime–their opponents made the same sorts of charges against them (that they were introducing a new mode of Christian life and therefore implicitly condemning what had gone before as unspiritual). And just as with the charismatics, there were people (the Spiritual Franciscans) who did claim that they represented a new, unprecedented move of the Spirit and who went into schism as a result. Yet it would be hard for any Catholic to deny that the mendicant orders added a new and valuable dimension to Catholic piety.

I don’t have any problem with the state of the Church until the 1960’s…I don’t understand why there are those that claim we need this “renewal” to keep the Church young and invigorated and growing…I feel like it was doing a good job on its own…I know certainly the number of vocations was higher and Mass attendance was higher.

Were you around then? I’ve talked to older Catholics who say that there were huge problems back then. You and I can see what has gone wrong with post-Vatican-II Catholicism, and so it’s easy to assume that what went before was free from problems.

As I see it, the Church is never free from problems. Each era brings a new set of problems with it. The Church doesn’t *need *any new movement in the sense that the movement is essential to the Church’s existence. But new movements add new dimensions to the practice of the Faith. Again, look at the mendicant orders. Try to forget just how vital a part of traditional Catholicism they have become and try to see them as 13th-century Catholics saw them. They seemed just as scary and un-traditional as the charismatic movement seems to you.

Edwin

 

[ComradeAndrei]

There are definitely two kinds of converts–those who want to get away from their native traditions and those who want to bring them with them. In all honesty, I think the former is a dangerous attitude, particularly when we’re talking about intra-Christian “conversions.” The Pope (following the teaching of Vatican II and of his predecessors) has made it clear that he does not want an “ecumenism of return” in which Protestants simply abandon their own traditions, but rather a “spiritual ecumenism” in which we grow together on the basis of the faith in Christ we have in common. That doesn’t preclude individual conversion–you may well be much holier than I because you had the courage and decisiveness to take that step, which I have never been able to bring myself to do. But I urge you not to give in to a simple spirit of reaction. You are disagreeing with your own Pope in so doing (although admittedly it’s your prerogative to do so when he isn’t speaking ex cathedra).

I think that was not the Pope’s intention. The Church always has been into inculturation-incorporate the legitimate goods from other societies/religions BUT leave the bad behind. When an individual comes back to the Church, they shouldn’t bring all of their protestantism with them, because they would not be Catholic if they are still protestant.

An example, some things that protestantism has produced is good or at least morally neutral. For instance, Lutheran and Anglican music such as hymns or more formal pieces by Bach and others which is often based off of our own Roman chants. That can be inculturated. A strong personal devotion to Bible reading. That also can be inculturated and indeed is encouraged by the Church Herself aside from and even before protestant devotional practice but is often lacking amongst Catholics for various reasons.

Other things that foster protestant beliefs should not be brought into the Church and should be rightly left outside of it. While we don’t necessarily want everyone to be in perfect lock-step with every Roman discipline and devotional practice neither does the Church just let everything and anything in.

As I see it, the Church is never free from problems. Each era brings a new set of problems with it. The Church doesn’t need any new movement in the sense that the movement is essential to the Church’s existence. But new movements add new dimensions to the practice of the Faith. Again, look at the mendicant orders. Try to forget just how vital a part of traditional Catholicism they have become and try to see them as 13th-century Catholics saw them. They seemed just as scary and un-traditional as the charismatic movement seems to you.

However, the Mendicant orders “traditionalized”. Some did indeed lead to schism. Thus we should learn from the past to not just accept everything that claims to be “of the Spirit” to truly be so.

As far I as I see, no matter what a Catholic wants to call themselves, they must obey all the legitimate rules and rubrics appropriate to the Church Universal and to their particular Church. While I have no specific problem with a truly orthodox Charismatic movement (though it is certainly not my cup of tea by any means) I think such things must be closely watched.

Even that which is not outright heresy is not necessarily prudent or good.

 

[Kendy]

I beg to differ…so would Jesus. According to the New St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism No. 1, Lesson 6 on Actual Sin, page 31…it says, and I quote: “Let us remember what Jesus has said: ‘He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in a very little thing is unjust also in much’ (Luke 16, 10)”

How hard is it to follow simple, little directives given to us from The Holy See in matters of behavior and attire while at Mass? How hard is it for a Bishop to actually be orthodox and require that his priest follow the rules and not encourage indifference, such as Mahony? These things sound like the little things to me that Jesus was talking about. If we can’t do these little things…what else are we failing to do?

You are right though Kendy…the Devil is definitely at work here and he is having a great laugh, because the Devil is very good at blurring the lines between right and wrong, until people do not have a concept of what is right and what is wrong…they have no compass left to guide them and all of a sudden everything is acceptable…soon, everyone feels they should “have it their way” in all matters.

I remembered this morning that there are CAF catholics and real catholics, most of whom are struggling with much more fundamental things like, contraception, prayer, etc. I am way to busy dealing with real problems, like women who are contemplating abortion, to get distracted by this. So, have fun and enjoy your “touch-free” mass, I rather prefer it here in the gutter.

Kendy

 

[dumspirospero]

First off…Like you said…I don’t have to agree with a fallible Pope on matter such as “ecumenism of return”…the Protestant faith is a heretical faith…I am sorry if I do not wish to hold on to the errors they teach…nor am I bound to do such. I do not see any problem in that…and since his opinions are not Ex Cathedra…I am completely free to do such.

To answer your question…no, I wasn’t alive back then, but I know people who were…I can also read history and accounts of how Catholicism was back then…and the ones complaining today about Pre-Conciliar Catholicism are predominantly ones who are in favor of womens ordination, etc…also, since when does living through a certain time period become a pre-requisite for speaking about that time period? Historians and Theologians of today didn’ t live back then…but they seem to be able to freely critique or praise the times without having someone ask them if they lived back then…just a thought.

There are definitely two kinds of converts–those who want to get away from their native traditions and those who want to bring them with them. In all honesty, I think the former is a dangerous attitude, particularly when we’re talking about intra-Christian “conversions.” The Pope (following the teaching of Vatican II and of his predecessors) has made it clear that he does not want an “ecumenism of return” in which Protestants simply abandon their own traditions, but rather a “spiritual ecumenism” in which we grow together on the basis of the faith in Christ we have in common. That doesn’t preclude individual conversion–you may well be much holier than I because you had the courage and decisiveness to take that step, which I have never been able to bring myself to do. But I urge you not to give in to a simple spirit of reaction. You are disagreeing with your own Pope in so doing (although admittedly it’s your prerogative to do so when he isn’t speaking ex cathedra).

If charismatic Catholics teach this, then they are indeed promoting schism and heresy. However, I see nothing problematic in the claim that the charismatic movement represents a particular manifestation of the Spirit. Read about the early days of the mendicant orders in the 13th century sometime–their opponents made the same sorts of charges against them (that they were introducing a new mode of Christian life and therefore implicitly condemning what had gone before as unspiritual). And just as with the charismatics, there were people (the Spiritual Franciscans) who did claim that they represented a new, unprecedented move of the Spirit and who went into schism as a result. Yet it would be hard for any Catholic to deny that the mendicant orders added a new and valuable dimension to Catholic piety.

Were you around then? I’ve talked to older Catholics who say that there were huge problems back then. You and I can see what has gone wrong with post-Vatican-II Catholicism, and so it’s easy to assume that what went before was free from problems.

As I see it, the Church is never free from problems. Each era brings a new set of problems with it. The Church doesn’t *need *any new movement in the sense that the movement is essential to the Church’s existence. But new movements add new dimensions to the practice of the Faith. Again, look at the mendicant orders. Try to forget just how vital a part of traditional Catholicism they have become and try to see them as 13th-century Catholics saw them. They seemed just as scary and un-traditional as the charismatic movement seems to you.

Edwin

 

[dumspirospero]

I will pray for you…the Church doesn’t need people trying to isoloate traditional Catholics who happen to be very devout and concerned with liturgical abuses, which is something you obviously enjoy doing. I have never once seen any of these people you have attacked call you anything but Catholic…it seems like you could afford them the same courtesy…shame on you. Just because I responded with an answer you can’t refute and you and your outlandish point of view have been shut down, doesn’t mean you have to resort to calling us derogatory terms and implying we are Catholic. I will pray for you and the people you are leaving to guide…because the Church doesn’t need the blind to lead the blind.

I remembered this morning that there are CAF catholics and real catholics, most of whom are struggling with much more fundamental things like, contraception, prayer, etc. I am way to busy dealing with real problems, like women who are contemplating abortion, to get distracted by this. So, have fun and enjoy your “touch-free” mass, I rather prefer it here in the gutter.

Kendy

 

[paramedicgirl]

I remembered this morning that there are CAF catholics and real catholics, most of whom are struggling with much more fundamental things like, contraception, prayer, etc. I am way to busy dealing with real problems, like women who are contemplating abortion, to get distracted by this. So, have fun and enjoy your “touch-free” mass, I rather prefer it here in the gutter.

Kendy

Harsh words, Kendy! I wonder which group I am assigned to?

 

[dumspirospero]

We are the Cafeteria Catholics according to her…despite the fact we are trying to ensure that all the teachings, rubrics, traditions, etc. are followed…according to her, we still pick and choose what we want…which is ironic, because I thought the “have it your way” attitude would be more closely identified with that label.

Harsh words, Kendy! I wonder which group I am assigned to?

 

[corvidae]

Would those who oppose the Catholic Charismatic Renewal be ok with it if they followed the rubrics of the mass?

I am just wondering if there is anything inherent in the CCR that you oppose, or just anyone messing with the mass (which I am opposed to as well, I just did not see holding hands up as being messing with the mass)

A lone Raven

 

[paramedicgirl]

We are the Cafeteria Catholics according to her…despite the fact we are trying to ensure that all the teachings, rubrics, traditions, etc. are followed…according to her, we still pick and choose what we want…which is ironic, because I thought the “have it your way” attitude would be more closely identified with that label.

I guess then I belong to the Cafeteria of the Magisterium of the Church, if I have to be classified as a Cafeteria Catholic.

 

[Kendy]

I will pray for you…the Church doesn’t need people trying to isoloate traditional Catholics who happen to be very devout and concerned with liturgical abuses, which is something you obviously enjoy doing. I have never once seen any of these people you have attacked call you anything but Catholic…it seems like you could afford them the same courtesy…shame on you. Just because I responded with an answer you can’t refute and you and your outlandish point of view have been shut down, doesn’t mean you have to resort to calling us derogatory terms and implying we are Catholic. I will pray for you and the people you are leaving to guide…because the Church doesn’t need the blind to lead the blind.

First of all, it wasn’t that I could not respond to your point; it’s more like it’s not worth it. I have a very hard time relating to someone who is getting upset about hand-holding. So, it’s a waste of time.

As for my views, being outlandish. That’s just ridiculous since my views are fairly mainstream. You may think that I am wrong, but I am certainly not some renegade on the fringe. Which brings me to point I was actually making with the last post. I am not implying that you are not catholics, but perhaps, a little out of touch with most catholics. And I don’t have a problem with traditionalist prefering their traditionalist mass. I think it should be available since I don’t think it’s worth it to push people out of the church because they happen to prefer a particular type of worship. My problem is that traditionalist seem to think that others are somehow not really worshiping. And frankly, I can’t stand that people think things like hold hands or raising your hands is a crisis. You don’t want to do it. Fine! But it is not evidence that the world is falling apart of that the devil is among us. I think the devil has better things to do than making sure that people hold hands during the father.

Kendy

 

[dumspirospero]

If they followed the Rubrics, I would not be opposed…let them do in their prayer groups what their hearts desire…but let the Mass remain sacred…not some show.

Would those who oppose the Catholic Charismatic Renewal be ok with it if they followed the rubrics of the mass?

I am just wondering if there is anything inherent in the CCR that you oppose, or just anyone messing with the mass (which I am opposed to as well, I just did not see holding hands up as being messing with the mass)

A lone Raven

 

[netmilsmom]

I remembered this morning that there are CAF catholics and real catholics, most of whom are struggling with much more fundamental things like, contraception, prayer, etc. I am way to busy dealing with real problems, like women who are contemplating abortion, to get distracted by this. So, have fun and enjoy your “touch-free” mass, I rather prefer it here in the gutter.

Kendy

Wow, like we traditional women are perfect and never have the “near occasion of sin” connected with contraception and prayer?
Come on down to this planet. All of us struggle with sin.
And nice marytr ploy with the gutter comment, though!

 

[netmilsmom]

If they followed the Rubrics, I would not be opposed…let them do in their prayer groups what their hearts desire…but let the Mass remain sacred…not some show.

 

[dumspirospero]

The majority of the country at one point in time used to think slavery was acceptable and necessary…their views were mainstream enough, that it was even legal in this country (A Christian country I might add) for some time…those that supported slavery were not on the fringe of society either…they were the majority. My point is that even if 99% of all people believe in a false idea…they are still wrong. Being in the majority doesn’t automatically make them right…it just means that 99% of them are wrong…while 1% of them hold on to the truth. God Bless.

First of all, it wasn’t that I could not respond to your point; it’s more like it’s not worth it. I have a very hard time relating to someone who is getting upset about hand-holding. So, it’s a waste of time.

As for my views, being outlandish. That’s just ridiculous since my views are fairly mainstream. You may think that I am wrong, but I am certainly not some renegade on the fringe. Which brings me to point I was actually making with the last post. I am not implying that you are not catholics, but perhaps, a little out of touch with most catholics. And I don’t have a problem with traditionalist prefering their traditionalist mass. I think it should be available since I don’t think it’s worth it to push people out of the church because they happen to prefer a particular type of worship. My problem is that traditionalist seem to think that others are somehow not really worshiping. And frankly, I can’t stand that people think things like hold hands or raising your hands is a crisis. You don’t want to do it. Fine! But it is not evidence that the world is falling apart of that the devil is among us. I think the devil has better things to do than making sure that people hold hands during the father.

Kendy

 

[netmilsmom]

. That’s just ridiculous since my views are fairly mainstream.

I would really be ashamed to admit that my views are the same as “mainstream” Catholics nowadays.

Half of them don’t know what it is to be Catholic and a quarter dont’ care. They want the pretty church for weddings, baptisms and First Communions.