Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an effective response to Charismatic Evanglicals?

[netmilsmom]

I don’t understand your example. However, I will tell you who I am. I am prayerful woman. I am an active partcipant in my parish. I am a person who tries to walk in love. I am a baptized member of the church, a daughter of the Lord. I am someone who takes my confirmation vows very seriously. I am nobody’s robot, and will not be treated like one.

Being Catholic and following the rules of being Catholic is not being a robot.
We are willing participants.

How do you know that you know the Lord? The Devil can come as an Angel of Light. Are you sure that you are getting the right message?

I am. The Vatican leads me.
You may feel smart enough to interpret Scripture, but I know that I am not. I don’t hold pride in thinking that I know better than Our Holy Father or his large group of scholars. They make the rules because they know better than I do. They have the Scripture in the original languages, not interupted by man.

Do you read Christ’s words in Aramaic, and the Old Testament in Hebrew? Vatican scholars do.

That’s the problem that the Protestants have. Different Bibles, different interpertations, and in the end a preacher guiding them.

Isn’t that just chock full of pride?

 

[Kendy]

Being Catholic and following the rules of being Catholic is not being a robot.
We are willing participants.

I don’t have a problem with following rules, but when I say something doesn’t make sense to me, and you say, "well, it’s the rules. If you don’t follow it, then you’re not catholic, you are treating me like a robot.

How do you know that you know the Lord? The Devil can come as an Angel of Light. Are you sure that you are getting the right message?

When the pharasses said to Jesus, it is by the devil’s power that you work. He said, a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. If the devil’s work is to make me go to mass everyday, to read the psalms everyday, to pray the rosary several times a week, to give to the homeless, to volunteer at a pregnancy shelter, to talk to God all day while I am in my car, to go to confession twice a month. Then well, the devil must have switched camps. I thought he was against loving God and neighbor.

I want to add, that while I think it’s important to obey the church, we are ultimately seeking a relationship with God. I signed up for this because I feel in love with Christ, not because I wanted to memorize the GIRM.

I am. The Vatican leads me.
You may feel smart enough to interpret Scripture, but I know that I am not. I don’t hold pride in thinking that I know better than Our Holy Father or his large group of scholars. They make the rules because they know better than I do. They have the Scripture in the original languages, not interupted by man.

I became catholic because I think the church can interpret scripture better than me, but I am not a complete idiot. It’s ok for me to say, “how does this line up with scripture?” and expect an answer.

Do you read Christ’s words in Aramaic, and the Old Testament in Hebrew? Vatican scholars do.

That’s the problem that the Protestants have. Different Bibles, different interpertations, and in the end a preacher guiding them.

Isn’t that just chock full of pride?

I am taking a great course on scripture by catholic scholars who are helping me understand it. There’s a difference between trying to understand scripture in light of the church’s teaching, and walking around saying, cardinal says, I have to do jump and jacks so here I am. I do the former.

Kendy

 

[netmilsmom]

That would be like my mother throwing me out of the house because I refuse to make my bed. It might be annoying to her, but no good mother casts her children out over such things.

I don’t know if you are a mother but I am.
If you truly loved your mother you would do what she wants.
Unlike an Earthly Mother, Our Holy Mother Church is missing human emotion and is looking for nothing more than the praise and honor of the Holy Trinity.

We don’t hold hands because the focus should not be on the humans around you but rather the Glory and Majesty of Our Lord in front of you.

If Jesus appeared right on the Altar, few I know would be grabbing a stranger’s hand. Maybe you would. I would be on my face on the ground, knowing I am unworthing to look at His Glory.

 

[netmilsmom]

I don’t have a problem with following rules, but when I say something doesn’t make sense to me, and you say, "well, it’s the rules. If you don’t follow it, then you’re not catholic, you are treating me like a robot.

No friend, you are disregarding the rules of the church.
You may choose to do this, but so did Martin Luther.
You should want to sacrifice as Christ did for you. Not try to find the loophole or disregard but rather encourage others to obey as well.
Obedience in the face of doubt is what makes saints, not digging your heels in and saying, well it should be.
That’s what people who believe in Birth Control say.

When the pharasses said to Jesus, it is by the devil’s power that you work. He said, a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. If the devil’s work is to make me go to mass everyday, to read the psalms everyday, to pray the rosary several times a week, to give to the homeless, to volunteer at a pregnancy shelter, to talk to God all day while I am in my car, to go to confession twice a month. Then well, the devil must have switched camps. I thought he was against loving God and neighbor.

Ahhhh, however you don’t know tomorrow and God does.
While it looks like the fruit of interperting Scripture and ignoring the rules of the Vatican, you have no clue what tomorrow will bring. I’ll go with the Vatican and the Vatican’s blessings on what I do.

I want to add, that while I think it’s important to obey the church, we are ultimately seeking a relationship with God. I signed up for this because I feel in love with Christ, not because I wanted to memorize the GIRM.

It isn’t about what you want.

I became catholic because I think the church can interpret scripture better than me, but I am not a complete idiot. It’s ok for me to say, “how does this line up with scripture?” and expect an answer.

Your church is based on Scripture AND tradition.
If you are looking for everything to reference back to Scripture, you are really looking for a fine Bible Church. And actually there are lots of them out there!

I am taking a great course on scripture by catholic scholars who are helping me understand it. There’s a difference between trying to understand scripture in light of the church’s teaching, and walking around saying, cardinal says, I have to do jump and jacks so here I am. I do the former.

Kendy

Maybe you should consider taking a course on Catholic teachings as well.
You seem to have less of a need of finding out what it is to be Christian and more of what it is to be Catholic.

 

[Ladybug42]

Folks in my parish hold hands. Has the Pope given a “no” to that now? They hold hands while we sing the Our Father. Is this what you all are talking about? This promotes community and unity while worshipping the Lord. I am really very confused. And I am doubly confused as to why people are villifying someone for asking questions, and expecing answers other than “**obey without understanding **or you aren’t Catholic anymore.”

 

[Karin]

First of all, can you write a whole paragraph using your own words?

sure I can…but the Church and its Fathers do it so much better

Second, I am not trying to exclude my mother out of the picture. But just like there are times when I have had to say to my Earthly mother, “sorry, but I just can’t do that.” I may have to say to my spiritual mother, “no.” I try to make this a rare occurence, but occasionally, it’s going to happen, especially, if my mother becomes rule happy.

So you have passed on the Church being your teacher…and decided in all of your wisdom what rules to follow? The Church has rules for a reason…I have given you the reasons…sorry if you can not comprehend them…that still does not mean you should not follow them

This does not mean I have abandonned my mother. Even if the church were serious about excommunicating dissenters, no one is going to excommunicate me because I think preventing peple from holding hands during mass is silly. I have not sinned against any church doctrine. And if you think I am no longer catholic because I happen to believe that telling people what to do with their hands is silly, then you are silly. . That would be like my mother throwing me out of the house because I refuse to make my bed. It might be annoying to her, but no good mother casts her children out over such things.

Hmm…Kendy I have never stated that you where no longer Catholic…

 

[Karin]

Show me where I have misinterpreted scripture. I have only pointed out the disturbing trend of this forum that everyone quotes from everything but scripture.

I don’t believe in sola scriptura, but I do believing in using scripture.

Kendy

you missed this part Kendy in your haste…
Why?
**“Because the Church teaches me so.” **
And why do you believe the Church?
"Because God has commanded me to believe the teaching of the Church. And God has threatened me with damnation, if I do not believe the Church.

 

[Karin]

Folks in my parish hold hands. Has the Pope given a “no” to that now? They hold hands while we sing the Our Father. Is this what you all are talking about? This promotes community and unity while worshipping the Lord. I am really very confused. And I am doubly confused as to why people are villifying someone for asking questions, and expecing answers other than “**obey without understanding **or you aren’t Catholic anymore.”

Holding hands during the Our Father has become commonplace,* but it is an illicit addition to the Liturgy**. Clarifications and Interpretations of the GIRM “Notitiae” Vol. XI (1975) p. 226] explains:*
*". . .holding hands is a sign of intimacy and not reconciliation, and as such disrupts the flow of the Sacramental signs in the Mass which leads to the Sacramental sign of intimacy with Christ and our neighbor, Holy Communion." *

 

[Kendy]

I don’t know if you are a mother but I am.
If you truly loved your mother you would do what she wants.
Unlike an Earthly Mother, Our Holy Mother Church is missing human emotion and is looking for nothing more than the praise and honor of the Holy Trinity.

Sometimes, mothers are unreasonable. But anyway, that is not true. There have been times in history when the church has let her power get to her head. And the church is able to change certain rules, like what language, is mass being said in because she realizes they are not working. This is not to be confused with changing doctrine.

We don’t hold hands because the focus should not be on the humans around you but rather the Glory and Majesty of Our Lord in front of you.

First, of all thanks for actually addressing the question at hand . Second, that seems like a very good reason. But could it possible to do that as a group, and to use hand holding as a symbol of our corporate worship?

If Jesus appeared right on the Altar, few I know would be grabbing a stranger’s hand. Maybe you would. I would be on my face on the ground, knowing I am unworthing to look at His Glory.

Jesus is on the altar. Now, if he appeared there in his human body, I would not be grabbing my neighbor because I would be shocked and amazed. But if he did that every Sunday, I would eventually get used to him being there.

 

[Karin]

. There have been times in history when the church has let her power get to her head. And the church is able to change certain rules, like what language, is mass being said in because she realizes they are not working. This is not to be confused with changing doctrine.

True…but you do not get to decide when to follow something or not TILL the Church tells you otherwise

 

[netmilsmom]

Sometimes, mothers are unreasonable. But anyway, that is not true. There have been times in history when the church has let her power get to her head. And the church is able to change certain rules, like what language, is mass being said in because she realizes they are not working. This is not to be confused with changing doctrine.

This is not one of those times. We are coming back to where we should be, but we must listen and promote. Not disregard with a wave of a hand.

First, of all thanks for actually addressing the question at hand . Second, that seems like a very good reason. But could it possible to do that as a group, and to use hand holding as a symbol of our corporate worship?

The best explaination is from the Diocese of St. Louis…
Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged? BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989
No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.

Jesus is on the altar. Now, if he appeared there in his human body, I would not be grabbing my neighbor because I would be shocked and amazed. But if he did that every Sunday, I would eventually get used to him being there.

Oooops! That is what I meant!
Physically visable as a human being.

Honestly, I would never get used to it.
Our Holy Lord, creator and judge, my sins would get the best of me. My own guilt for all He has given me and what a germ I am, would keep me “reaching for the hem of His garment.”

 

[Kendy]

No friend, you are disregarding the rules of the church.
You may choose to do this, but so did Martin Luther.
You should want to sacrifice as Christ did for you. Not try to find the loophole or disregard but rather encourage others to obey as well.
Obedience in the face of doubt is what makes saints, not digging your heels in and saying, well it should be.
That’s what people who believe in Birth Control say.

I think the first thing to realize about me is I don’t actually care what anyone is doing with their hands. My only concern here is I am wary that authority is being overextended. The church exists to facililate our worhip, not micromanage it. And when someone claims to know what is in your heart based on the position of your hands, they have gone too far.

Ahhhh, however you don’t know tomorrow and God does.
While it looks like the fruit of interperting Scripture and ignoring the rules of the Vatican, you have no clue what tomorrow will bring. I’ll go with the Vatican and the Vatican’s blessings on what I do.

Can we not engage in exaggeration. I don’t make a life of ignoring the vatican. There’s nothing I love more than being in a catholic chapel in front of the eucharist. However, OCCASIONALLY, something strikes me as being odd. And I wonder is this from God or are you a little drunk on power? But usually, I don’t have a problem. I love the last pope and I love the current one.

Your church is based on Scripture AND tradition.
If you are looking for everything to reference back to Scripture, you are really looking for a fine Bible Church. And actually there are lots of them out there!

I am amazed by how willing you are to kick me out of the church. Now, that’s loving.

I have never said that we need to throw out tradition. I just said, that I am disturbed by how little attention there is to scripture on this forum.

Maybe you should consider taking a course on Catholic teachings as well.
You seem to have less of a need of finding out what it is to be Christian and more of what it is to be Catholic.

The course I am taking a catholic bible study bible course.

 

[Ladybug42]

Holding hands during the Our Father has become commonplace,* but it is an illicit addition to the Liturgy***. Clarifications and Interpretations of the GIRM “Notitiae” Vol. XI (1975) p. 226] explains:
*". . .holding hands is a sign of intimacy and not reconciliation, and as such disrupts the flow of the Sacramental signs in the Mass which leads to the Sacramental sign of intimacy with Christ and our neighbor, Holy Communion." *

So then it is an addition, but not forbidden? Just trying to understand. And is this an opinion of someone, or a legisltive declaration? Otherwise, is this a declaration of new church doctrine, or an admonition by someone not to disrupt the flow?
What is the GIRM?

 

[Karin]

So then it is an addition, but not forbidden?

it is illicit…the definition of illicit is contrary to or forbidden by law.
It is an addiiton that the people in the pews have taken upon themselves to do…

Just trying to understand.

that is ok…

What is the GIRM?

GIRM is General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

 

[netmilsmom]

I think the first thing to realize about me is I don’t actually care what anyone is doing with their hands. My only concern here is I am wary that authority is being overextended. The church exists to facililate our worhip, not micromanage it. And when someone claims to know what is in your heart based on the position of your hands, they have gone too far.

No, the church is not to facilliate our worship, it tells us the proper way to worship when one is Catholic.

If one is a ballerina in a certain troupe, one must follow those rules. Otherwise the ballet is unorganized and unwatchable.
The Vatican has the right to tell you, or you can pick another church.

Can we not engage in exaggeration. I don’t make a life of ignoring the Vatican

Please reread what I wrote.
I said “The rules of the Vatican”

There’s nothing I love more than being in a catholic chapel in front of the eucharist. However, OCCASIONALLY, something strikes me as being odd. And I wonder is this from God or are you a little drunk on power? But usually, I don’t have a problem. I love the last pope and I love the current one.

Thinking that the Vatican is “drunk with power” and not guided by the Holy Spirit, comes from a need to personally interpret the Scriptures instead of understanding obedience.

I am amazed by how willing you are to kick me out of the church. Now, that’s loving.

It is very loving. Being a good Christian will get you to heaven a whole lot quicker than being a Catholic who disregards the Vatican’s rules.
Read some of the Lives of the Saints. Obedience, not personal feelings, makes a saint.

I have never said that we need to throw out tradition. I just said, that I am disturbed by how little attention there is to scripture on this forum.

We are not a Bible based church. We are a Scripture and tradition based church.

The course I am taking a catholic bible study bible course.

A catechism course would be very helpful. At a good traditional parish teaching the CCC. Not the Bible, but what it is to be Catholic.

 

[Karin]

And is this an opinion of someone, or a legisltive declaration? Otherwise, is this a declaration of new church doctrine, or an admonition by someone not to disrupt the flow?

It comes from the Perfect of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (Cardinal Arinze)

 

[Karin]

You know I think everyone should have a copy of this book…and read it…
MY CATHOLIC FAITH
**All teachings on this page are from: **MY CATHOLIC FAITH: A Manual Of Religion
MOST REVEREND LOUIS LARAVOIRE MORROW, S.T.D. BISHOP OF KRISHNAGAR Copyright 1949 By Louis LaRavoire Morrow
http://www.willingshepherds.org/My-Catholic-Faith-BIG.jpg
willingshepherds.org/Doctrine.htm

 

[Kendy]

We are not a Bible based church. We are a Scripture and tradition based church.
A catechism course would be very helpful. At a good traditional parish teaching the CCC. Not the Bible, but what it is to be Catholic.

We are a indeed a bible and tradition based church so perhaps, we could include the bible part. To suggest that a catholic need not be taken a catholic scripture course is just plain sad.

I was telling this story to one of the holiest women I know. She’s a consecrated virgin who can’t say two sentences without saying Jesus. And when I told her about this she said, “Why are they are worried about this silly thing. They are missing the point.” My friend may not all the fine points of the GIRM, but I don’t know anyone who knows more about living a life of faith than her.

Kendy

 

[Karin]

I was telling this story to one of the holiest women I know. She’s a consecrated virgin who can’t say two sentences without saying Jesus. And when I told her about this she said, “Why are they are worried about this silly thing. They are missing the point.” My friend may not all the fine points of the GIRM, but I don’t know anyone who knows more about living a life of faith than her.

Kendy

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif well I guess we all heard it now…the Consecrated Virgin agrees that we dont have to worry about this anymore…we can now officially pick and choose what to follow

smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb113&pp=ZN

 

[Karin]

I was telling this story to one of the holiest women I know. She’s a consecrated virgin who can’t say two sentences without saying Jesus. And when I told her about this she said, “Why are they are worried about this silly thing. They are missing the point.”
Kendy

And Kendy what does the Consecrated Virgin see as the “point”?

My friend may not all the fine points of the GIRM, but I don’t know anyone who knows more about living a life of faith than her.

really more so than your Priest?