Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[iblessem]

All these discussions, whether its about music, liturgy or the charismatic renewal seem to boil down to one point.

Either the individual Catholic or Christian limits God’s power to their own definition or one they have adopted from some Christian theolgian OR BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION,

or the individual Catholic or Christian believes that God just might be powerful enough to work in ways THAT EVEN THEY DON’T UNDERSTAND.

Well, I won’t limit our lord Jesus Christ, but I will accept the teachings of our church that have been accepted for 2 millennium. I will be open to new revelations when they have survived for a thousand years, but I will be long passed after 1000 years so, a good timely test is that when:

#1 If you see your brother or sister involved in the Charistmatic Renewal, new liturgical music or prayer and they become more grounded in their Catholic faith, treat others with love better, and live their lives according to the 10 commandments and church law…that equals good translation of God’s will.

#2. If the above behavior is poor, then they have interpreted God’s will poorly or are not sincere.

Don’t argue with results!

 

[Holly3278]

Just so you know, you probably won’t find a parish that has charismatic Masses every week. You may find a diocese that does though.

That said, the pope approves of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and there is nothing suspicious about it.

 

[serendipity]

I recommend reading Raneiro Cantalamessa’s (OFM Cap) book “Sober Intoxication of the Spirit,” available at most Catholic book stores and on Amazon. He was a papal preacher to Phope John Paul II and is a Charismatic leader. A very orthodox souce.

The book explains why gifts of the Spririt are not always fully released during sacraments; largely this has to do with people being poorly catechized and not approaching them with completley open hearts as they did in times of old. This explanation is in compliance with Catholic teaching. There are far too many Catholics today who recieve sacraments because their parents make them or to appease spouses. These peopel frequently who don’t practice righteous living and have activite prayer lifes. They also usually lack full knowledge of the covenental relationship that the sacrament entails,

The book provides a history of charismatic prayer in teh Church, as well as how to identify groups that are faithful to Catholic teaching verses those that one should be wary of.

The Franciscan TOR order (which has houses in Pittsburgh and does a lot of the teaching at the Franciscan University at Steubenville) has many members who lead and participate in Charismatic prayer groups. The Franciscan Unviersity also has a huge Charismatic Conference once a year in the summer. Again, a placde know for the integrity of its Catholic teaching.

Gifts of the Spirit are a rich part of Catholic tradition. However, unotuntately you will meet quite a few people (predominatntly from the baby boomer generation) who treat charismatic prayer and praise and worship as methods of prayer to replace rather than to complement our other forms of traditional prayers and commitments they made to God thus far.

 

[clairemd]

When I was in college, I got introduced to a Catholic renewal community which caters to the youth (college students mostly) and is a nationwide movement as they call it, establishing themselves in different universities with the mission of evangelizing the youth to become leaders for the church. It was here during my first year in college that I experienced my baptism of the holy spirit. My life was completely changed since then, the most important of which is establishing a deep personal relationship with Christ and knowing more about our Catholic faith as well. I had a normal college life but with extraordinary memories because of this group. After graduation, a group of young adults took care of me as I enter the professional and working world. It’s mission is set on Christifying the workplace. I have been blessed by this two communities which God has given me for they were instruments of His love in bringing me more closer to Him.
Godbless You all

 

[po18guy]

clairemd, serendipity, Holly3278 and iblessem:

Thank you very much for your replies. However, only the Holy Spirit will convince CassiusLonginus of what we have experienced!

 

[CassiusLonginus]

clairemd, serendipity, Holly3278 and iblessem:

Thank you very much for your replies. However, only the Holy Spirit will convince CassiusLonginus of what we have experienced!

Neither you nor the Holy Ghost need to try to ‘convince’ me about results. As I’ve stated, my contention is with terminology and this supposedly new movement. Listen, this is nothing new. For the last 2000 years every Catholic soul has either improved in the spiritual life, or they haven’t, and have been rewarded by God according to His wisdom and judgement. I understand this.

My main objection is that people talk about “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” which “releases the gifts” etc. You and I were baptized with the Holy Ghost when we were baptized as infants or converts. That’s the only real baptism of the Holy Ghost that there is. Period. The Holy Ghost can dispense graces as He sees fit, but please don’t refer to it as another baptism (even though I’m aware that you say it’s ‘not a new sacrament’). Calling it “baptism of…” is false and misleading.

Baptism (of water and the Holy Ghost, the ‘real’ baptism that we’re all familiar with) removes the stain of original sin. What does this ‘new’ baptism do? It releases the gifts? But I thought that’s what confirmation is for, which each Catholic responds to differently. Some people grow tepid, some fervent after their confirmations. Confirmation supplies sacramental grace (as does the true baptism and the other five sacraments). Does the so-called “baptism of the Holy Spirit” supply sacramental grace? If yes, then it is either a new (8th?) sacrament, or it’s a repeat of the original baptism (which would mean the Holy Ghost didn’t do a good enough job the first time which is absurd). If no, then it causes too much confusion by using the name of a sacrament for a non-sacramental purpose and should cease and desist trying to make the spiritual life of a few ‘charismatic’ Catholics sound more important than it is. WE ALL struggle with the devil, we all must try to persevere in the spiritual life.

Now, whether we respond to God’s grace and improve our spiritual lives or not is an indicator of how God will bless us. Like I said, it’s the same old thing: either you become lukewarm and tepid, or you become fervent.

Your term is false and misleading. “Baptism of the Holy Ghost” is what every baptized Catholic experiences when he enters the Church at baptism. There is no other baptism. Stop using misleading and false terminology.

 

[clairemd]

amen to that
let’s include him in our prayers
god bless

 

[CassiusLonginus]

amen to that
let’s include him in our prayers
god bless

By all means, pray for me, but just don’t fall into error by assuming you are more of a Catholic, or a better one than I simply because you are ‘charismatic’.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

It was here during my first year in college that I experienced my baptism of the holy spirit.

Can you please share your ‘baptism of the holy spirit’ story? When did it happen? Do you remember the moment it happened?

I’m wondering because this is what happened to me:

I was a cradle ‘sunday’ Catholic. I went to church on Sunday. That’s it. I had a vague notion of what Catholicism did and didn’t ‘do’ etc. During college I had all of these protestants constantly trying to challenge me. They had memorized half the bible, but I knew many of their arguments were false since I knew there were contrary scriptures (albeit ones I couldn’t quote verbatim etc.).

So I finally took it upon myself to start reading, educating myself, and I began a regular prayer life. Bang, my tepidity over the last several years is being destroyed by ferver, even though I’m still tepid much of the time.

I don’t recall any ‘baptism’, just the need to avoid being lukewarm. I mean, that’s part of every Catholic’s journey. Either up, or down. But who wants to be vomitted our of His mouth?

 

[po18guy]

Neither you nor the Holy Ghost need to try to ‘convince’ me about results. As I’ve stated, my contention is with terminology and this supposedly new movement. Listen, this is nothing new. For the last 2000 years every Catholic soul has either improved in the spiritual life, or they haven’t, and have been rewarded by God according to His wisdom and judgement. I understand this.

My main objection is that people talk about “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” which “releases the gifts” etc. You and I were baptized with the Holy Ghost when we were baptized as infants or converts. That’s the only real baptism of the Holy Ghost that there is. Period. The Holy Ghost can dispense graces as He sees fit, but please don’t refer to it as another baptism (even though I’m aware that you say it’s ‘not a new sacrament’). Calling it “baptism of…” is false and misleading.

Baptism (of water and the Holy Ghost, the ‘real’ baptism that we’re all familiar with) removes the stain of original sin. What does this ‘new’ baptism do? It releases the gifts? But I thought that’s what confirmation is for, which each Catholic responds to differently. Some people grow tepid, some fervent after their confirmations. Confirmation supplies sacramental grace (as does the true baptism and the other five sacraments). Does the so-called “baptism of the Holy Spirit” supply sacramental grace? If yes, then it is either a new (8th?) sacrament, or it’s a repeat of the original baptism (which would mean the Holy Ghost didn’t do a good enough job the first time which is absurd). If no, then it causes too much confusion by using the name of a sacrament for a non-sacramental purpose and should cease and desist trying to make the spiritual life of a few ‘charismatic’ Catholics sound more important than it is. WE ALL struggle with the devil, we all must try to persevere in the spiritual life.

Now, whether we respond to God’s grace and improve our spiritual lives or not is an indicator of how God will bless us. Like I said, it’s the same old thing: either you become lukewarm and tepid, or you become fervent.

Your term is false and misleading. “Baptism of the Holy Ghost” is what every baptized Catholic experiences when he enters the Church at baptism. There is no other baptism. Stop using misleading and false terminology.

Is what we have done, what we have experienced an evil that we must confess? Sounds like it.

I tell you, speaking of the charismatic movement really brings 'em out!

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Is what we have done, what we have experienced an evil that we must confess? Sounds like it.

Did I accuse you of an evil? I said terminology is misleading, however, I didn’t even say that you or any other ‘charismatic’ Catholics are actually trying to mislead. In other words, save the priests valuable time; just confess your actual sins.

I tell you, speaking of the charismatic movement really brings 'em out!

“Brings 'em out”…? Are you talking about people who are curious? People who’d like an explanation? People who make valid points but receive very little actual, factual feedback, tinged with a hint of derision and false sympathy??? Then yeah, in regard to this poster, I guess it “brought 'im out”. C’mon…

Instead of talking about me in this way, perhaps you should try to explain your position and respond to what I’ve said and the questions I’ve asked. I’ve explained myself and my views and how they relate to Catholic dogma without attacking any of you and I’d like a little of that in return. Thank you.

Also, I asked you, po18guy, a specific question in regard to the gift of prophecy. Will you answer it, please?

Anybody can feel free to provide me with answers, however, if you are unable to respond to everything I’ve said all at once, please just answer this question: Does the “Baptism of the Holy Ghost” which you refer to supply sacramental grace?

 

[po18guy]

Did I accuse you of an evil? I said terminology is misleading, however, I didn’t even say that you or any other ‘charismatic’ Catholics are actually trying to mislead. In other words, save the priests valuable time; just confess your actual sins.

I was a little hasty in my response, but this subject always seems to set certain Catholics off. We have forgotten the inquiry of the OP. If involvement with charismatics will bring him home, then so be it!

“Brings 'em out”…?

Those who have objections to either:

1. the name of the movement (of which I am not a part)
2. the goals of the movement
3. the methods used by hthe movement
4. the terminology used by the movement
5. yes, even sometimes the results of the movement

That’s all.

Instead of talking about me in this way, perhaps you should try to explain your position and respond to what I’ve said and the questions I’ve asked. I’ve explained myself and my views and how they relate to Catholic dogma without attacking any of you and I’d like a little of that in return.

Mea culpa.

Also, I asked you, po18guy, a specific question in regard to the gift of prophecy. Will you answer it, please?

It is communication that must have God as its origin and end. It is intended to edify, to build up the Church, as Saint Paul wrote. It is about encouragement in the faith, calling to a deeper faith, and sometimes it involves chastisement of the receiver or others, who may have strayed. It is rarely if ever concerned with future events or specific knowledge. Again, it must begin and end with God. It involve the testing of spirits, so care and caution are used.

Again, if this group brings a Pentecostal home to Catholicism, all the while being approved of by the Church hierarchy, I see it as a gain for the Lord. Referring to my first post in this thread, I reminded the OP that Jesus Christ is greater reason to become Catholic, and that He resides in the Catholic Church.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

It is communication that must have God as its origin and end. It is intended to edify, to build up the Church, as Saint Paul wrote. It is about encouragement in the faith, calling to a deeper faith, and sometimes it involves chastisement of the receiver or others, who may have strayed. It is rarely if ever concerned with future events or specific knowledge. Again, it must begin and end with God. It involve the testing of spirits, so care and caution are used.

Thanks. So that’s prophecy? Communication for the spiritual good and edification of all? Just out of curiosity; why the name ‘prophecy’ if it rarely if ever is concerned with future events? Just wondering…

 

[po18guy]

Thanks. So that’s prophecy? Communication for the spiritual good and edification of all? Just out of curiosity; why the name ‘prophecy’ if it rarely if ever is concerned with future events? Just wondering…

Likely because on occasion it does involve the future, or even past events that the receiver would have no knowledge of. It transcends time, since it has its origin in God, who is outside of time.

 

[DebChris]

All these discussions, whether its about music, liturgy or the charismatic renewal seem to boil down to one point.

Either the individual Catholic or Christian limits God’s power to their own definition or one they have adopted from some Christian theolgian OR BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION,

or the individual Catholic or Christian believes that God just might be powerful enough to work in ways THAT EVEN THEY DON’T UNDERSTAND.

Well, I won’t limit our lord Jesus Christ, but I will accept the teachings of our church that have been accepted for 2 millennium. I will be open to new revelations when they have survived for a thousand years, but I will be long passed after 1000 years so, a good timely test is that when:

#1 If you see your brother or sister involved in the Charistmatic Renewal, new liturgical music or prayer and they become more grounded in their Catholic faith, treat others with love better, and live their lives according to the 10 commandments and church law…that equals good translation of God’s will.

#2. If the above behavior is poor, then they have interpreted God’s will poorly or are not sincere.

Don’t argue with results!

Great response.

Good info. Serendipity (#23).

Thanks po18guy. I have been away so have not checked responses until today. Rerophecy is not a prediction although it often seen as such. Prophecy is the word of God spoken through a person. Within the Charismatic Renewal, and throughout Scripture, it often points to the current state of relationship between God and His people. You and I are in agreement. I was just trying to come up with a better way to explain prophecy to those not within the Renewal who may not have the same understanding as you and I.

 

[po18guy]

Great response.

Good info. Serendipity (#23).

Thanks po18guy. I have been away so have not checked responses until today. Rerophecy is not a prediction although it often seen as such. Prophecy is the word of God spoken through a person. Within the Charismatic Renewal, and throughout Scripture, it often points to the current state of relationship between God and His people. You and I are in agreement. I was just trying to come up with a better way to explain prophecy to those not within the Renewal who may not have the same understanding as you and I.

The most difficult hurdle for me to overcome was submitting to the Lord as fully as I could, of losing my fear of appearing like a fool under the influence of the Holy Spirit. I think that is a part of many Catholics’ objections to the entire movement.

We got nothing from the Pentecostals. They got it from us and exploited it - as we should have been doing all along. Is there an expiration date on the Holy Spirit in scripture? No! The problem with reading scripture in isolation is that we tend to view God’s word as in the past. It is for all times and all peoples.

When we Catholics have enough faith to perform miracles as in scripture, perhaps we will then attract many more to the Church. Amen!

 

[DebChris]

The most difficult hurdle for me to overcome was submitting to the Lord as fully as I could, of losing my fear of appearing like a fool under the influence of the Holy Spirit. I think that is a part of many Catholics’ objections to the entire movement.

We got nothing from the Pentecostals. They got it from us and exploited it - as we should have been doing all along. Is there an expiration date on the Holy Spirit in scripture? No! The problem with reading scripture in isolation is that we tend to view God’s word as in the past. It is for all times and all peoples.

When we Catholics have enough faith to perform miracles as in scripture, perhaps we will then attract many more to the Church. Amen!

As I read the posts throughout the various threads, I often see the idea that only the Saints performed these miracles (which Jesus simply referred to as “works”). As we read the lives of the Saints we find that they did not see themselves as anything special. What makes the Saints stand out is their submission, their total abandonment to the Will of God regardless of what the world and those around them might think.
Non-Catholic Pentecostal churches developed because the denominations from which Pentecostals came during the early nineteenth century did not recognize the manifestation of the gifts. Isn’t it great to belong to a Church that celebrates the expression of these gifts throughout it long history?

 

[po18guy]

As I read the posts throughout the various threads, I often see the idea that only the Saints performed these miracles (which Jesus simply referred to as “works”). As we read the lives of the Saints we find that they did not see themselves as anything special. What makes the Saints stand out is their submission, their total abandonment to the Will of God regardless of what the world and those around them might think.
Non-Catholic Pentecostal churches developed because the denominations from which Pentecostals came during the early nineteenth century did not recognize the manifestation of the gifts. Isn’t it great to belong to a Church that celebrates the expression of these gifts throughout it long history?

Universal is the word!

 

[Madaglan]

Could some one please explain the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I am a pentacostal christian and this sounds like a mixing of the pentacostal faith and catholic faith is this true and how do I find a catholic church like this. I’ve often thought about becoming catholic and if I could find a Catholic church like this I would convert quickly. I’m a firm believer in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and was very excited when I ran across this on the internet.

Many Catholic Charismatics believe their movement is distinct from the Pentecostal movement in Protestantism. This said, the “charisms” emphasized in the Catholic Charismatic Movement are similar to those in the Pentecostal churches. Central to the movement is the “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” (it goes by several names). The Catholic Charismatics with whom I was involved, and I understand the vast majority of Catholic Charismatics, clearly teach that this is not a new baptism, but connected to one’s sacramental baptism. The Catholic Charismatics with whom I was involved were heavy on things like speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, and prophecy (i.e. speaking the Word as it came to them), but they also were very devoted to things Pentecostals do not have: e.g. Eucharistic Adoration (some did at least an hour a day), praying the Rosary, invoke the saints, read Scripture daily, etc. In any case, I was a member for a few months. They were very good people, but I ended up determining that it was not for me.

If you call the Catholic diocese in which you are located, you should be able to find out if there is a community that meets at some parish near you.

 

[jean8]

Could some one please explain the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I am a pentacostal christian and this sounds like a mixing of the pentacostal faith and catholic faith is this true and how do I find a catholic church like this. I’ve often thought about becoming catholic and if I could find a Catholic church like this I would convert quickly. I’m a firm believer in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and was very excited when I ran across this on the internet.

Look up Ralph Martin. He appeared on EWTN. He is a Charismatic Catholic. Nothing wrong with that. He received the gift of tongues, which many other christians receive, other than Pentecostlas.

God bless,
jean8