Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[The_Theotokos]

Theotokos, I don’t mean to be pushy or anything of that sort it’s just that my personal experience brought me closer to the Lord and The Church. I wouldn’t want anyone to be scared of a possibly well meaning group of people, but I do and can see your point, is it that if the movement of those who may be wrong in their teaching were to lead others astray and hurt the Church? I can understand, but I also know that Jesus’ promise is that the church will be victorious in the end. I trust His promise and anyone who is truly close to the Lord and His Church, I feel these people will know if they are being led astray by false teaching. So we must pray that the Holy Spirit guide this movement and pray that the false teachers are brought into the light for those trying to discern. God Bless:blush: I won’t be a pain and I’ll leave it as just be careful through prayer and discernment when making any decisions. There are always lessons to be learned whether it’s by making mistakes or learning from others mistakes God is always there teaching us something and guiding us to truth and love.

Good advice and you are certainly not a pain.

 

[nfabienne]

We all have so much to share and learn from each other, but truly the Lord is the teacher, guiding us and showing us the way.

 

[LRH1957]

The same as any parish. A means to receive the sacraments, receive the Word of God, increase Grace. All those good things.

Do people have to come to your parishes for this to happen or do you reach out and spread the Gospel also? This is a serious question.

 

[LRH1957]

What have some of the Popes said on CCR? See below:

Pope Paul VI
During the First International Leader’s Conference of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, 1 October, 1973:

"We rejoice with you, dear friends, at the renewal of the spiritual life manifested in the church today, in difference forms and in various environments. Certain common notes appear in this renewal: the taste for deep prayer, personal and in groups, a return to contemplation and on emphasis on praise of God, the desire to devote oneself completely to Christ, a great availability for the calls of the Holy Spirit, more assiduous reading of the Scriptures, generous brotherly devotion, the will to make a contribution to the service of the church. In all that, we can recognize the mysteries and discreet work of the Spirit, who is the soul of the church.

(cited in McDonnell [see reference at the end of this page], p. 4)
During the Synod of Bishops in 1974:

The Holy Spirit was sent on the day of Pentecost in order that He might forever sanctify the church, and thus all believers would have access to the Father through Christ in one Spirit (cf. Eph.2:18). He is the Spirit of life The Spirit dwells in the church and in the hearts of the faithful as in a temple (cf. 1Cor 3:16; 6:19). In them he prays and bears witness to the fact that they are adopted sons (cf. Gal 4:6; Rom 8:15-16,26). The Spirit guides the church in the fullness of truth (cf. Jn 16:13) and gives her a unity of fellowship and service. He furnishes and directs her with various gifts, both hierarchical and charismatic, and adorns her with the fruits of his grace (cf. Eph 4:11-12; 1Cor 12:4; Gal 5:22). By the power of the gospel he makes the church grow, perpetually renews her" (Lumen Gentium, 4)
(in McConnell, ibid., p.7)

In 1975, Pope Paul VI personally invited the renewal to hold its annual conference in Rome. In a special session during that conference the pope stated:

You have chosen the city of Rome in this Holy Year to celebrate your International Congress, dear sons and daughters; you have asked us to meet you today and to address you. You have wished thereby to show your attachment to the Church founded by Jesus Christ and to everything that this See of Peter represents for you. This strong desire to situate yourselves in the Church is an authentic sign of the action of the Holy Spirit.
As we said last October in the presence of some of you, the Church and the world need more than ever that the miracle of Pentecost should continue in history . . . Nothing is more necessary to this more and more secularized world than the witness of the “spiritual renewal” that we see the Holy Spirit evoking in the most diverse regions and milieu . . . How then could this “spiritual renewal” not be a “chance” for the Church and for the world? And how, in this case, could one not take all the means to ensure that it remains so?

 

[LRH1957]

What has Pope John Paul II said about CCR?

Pope John Paul II
To international leaders of the Charismatic Renewal in 1979:

I have always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit. My own experience is very interesting. When I was in school, at the age of 12 or 13, sometimes I had difficulties in my studies, in particular with mathematics. My father gave me a book on prayer. He opened it to a page and said to me: “Here you have the prayer to the Holy Spirit. You must say this prayer every day of your life.” I have remained obedient to this order that my father gave 50 years ago . . .
(in McConnell, ibid., p.25)
I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action. The world is much in need of this action of the Holy Spirit, and it needs many instruments for this action. The situation in the world is dangerous, very dangerous. Materialism is opposed to the true dimension of human power, and there are many different kinds of materialism. Materialism is the negation of the Holy Spirit. Now I see this movement, this activity everywhere . . . Consequently, I am convinced in the total renewal of the church, in this spiritual renewal of the church.
(ibid., p. 26)
In 1981:
Renewal in the Spirit will be authentic and have real frutifulness in the Church, not so much according as it gives rise to extraordinary charisms, but according as it leads the greatest possible number of the faithful, as they travel their daily plans, to make a humble, patient, and persevering effort to know the mystery of Christ better, and to bear witness to it . . .
Pope Paul described the movement for renewal in the Spirit as a chance for the Church and for the world, and the six years since have borne out the hope that inspired his vision. The Church has seen the fruits of your devotion to prayer in a deepened commitment to holiness of life and love for the word of God . . . May the work of love already begun in you be brought to successful completion!

During an audience with the Bishops of Northern France in 1987:

Nowadays, there exists another possibility: that of prayer groups which have multiplied in the Catholic Church as in other church communities, and this spontaneously, in an unexpected manner. Prayer can be developed here in a classic way. It can also seek the support of the more exuberant manifestations. Some pastors have received this movement with restraint. And, in fact, it is necessary to keep watch always so that an authentic doctrine inspires this type of prayer, and the ecclesial character of the sacramental ministers may be well respected, and that the tasks of charity and justice are not abandoned.
On the other hand, the dynamism and generosity of these groups should not impede other initiatives animating the life of parish communities. However, with all necessary discernment, it is possible to speak of a grace directed to sanctify the church, to renew in her the taste for prayer, to rediscover, with the Holy Spirit, the sense of gratuitousness, of joyful praise, of confidence in intercession, and to be converted into a new fountain of evangelization.
(ibid., pp. 59-60)

At the 6th International Assembly of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal on 15 May 1987:

The vigor and fruits of the Renewal certainly testify to the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit in the Church during these years following the Second Vatican Council. Thanks to the Spirit, the Church constantly keeps her youth and vitality. And the Charismatic Renewal is an eloquent manifestation of this vitality today, a vigorous affirmation of what “the Spirit is saying to the Churches” (Rev. 2:7), as we draw near to the end of the second millennium.

 

[LRH1957]

(Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 21 November 1964; Lumen Gentium; ch. 2: “The People of God,” par. 12)

The Holy Spirit sanctifies the People of God through the ministry and the sacraments. However, for the exercise of the apostolate he gives the faithful special gifts besides (cf. 1 Cor. 12:7), “allotting them to each one as he wills” (1 Cor. 12:11), so that each and all, putting at the service of others the grace received may be “as good stewards of God’s varied gifts,” (1 Pet. 4:10), for the building up of the whole body in charity (cf. Eph. 4:16). From the reception of these charisms, even the most ordinary ones, there arises for each of the faithful the right and duty of exercising them in the Church and in the world for the good of men and the development of the Church, of exercising them in the freedom of the Holy Spirit who “breathes where he wills” (Jn. 3:8), and at the same time in communion with his brothers in Christ, and with his pastors especially. It is for the pastors to pass judgment on the authenticity and good use of these gifts, not certainly with a view to quenching the Spirit but to testing everything and keeping what is good (cf. 1 Th. 5:12, 19, 21).

 

[LRH1957]

(Decree on the Apostolate of Lay People, 18 November 1965; Apostolicam actuositatem; ch. 1, par. 3: “Foundations of the Lay Apostolate”)

United States Bishops

The bishops of the United States (NCCB, USCC), in their pastoral letter to the American Church on the Charismatic Renewal, declared in 1984:
. . . the charismatic renewal is rooted in the witness of the gospel tradition: Jesus is Lord by the power of the Spirit to the glory of the Father.
Insofar as the Charismatic Renewal makes its own this primary reality of the Gospel, it witnesses to elements of the Good News that are central, not optional: the covenant love of the Father, the Lordship of Jesus, the power of the Spirit, sacramental and community life, prayer, charisms and the necessity of evangelization.
Insofar as the renewal makes its own what is central to the enduring reality of the Gospel, it cannot be dismissed as peripheral to the life of the Church. Clearly the Charismatic Renewal is in and for the Church, not alongside the Church.
Because the Charismatic Renewal is at the heart of the Church, it also has a role in parish renewal.
We wish those in the Charismatic Renewal to know that we make our own the view of Yves Congar: “The Charismatic Renewal is a grace for the Church.” We assure those in the Charismatic Renewal of the support they enjoy from the bishops of the United States, and we encourage them in their efforts to renew the life of the Church.

 

[Marnica01]

Hmm…a foreign language is one thing but tongues? I am just very leery about people getting to the point where they are fainting. That, for me, is a bit too dramatic and done more for show than actual reverence to the Lord.

A couple of things.

First, St Paul never says that tongues is a foreign language…it is St Luke who **seems **to imply that in Acts 2. But several Biblical scholars have pointed out that what St Luke actually says is that everyone heard the Apostles speaking in their own language, not that there was someone speaking in each language – the miracle was in the hearing rather than the speaking. St Paul’s position is that speaking in tongues is prayer to God, not that it is a human language.

BTW, there was a recent study published in a scientific journal that shed some light on what is actually going on when a person prays in tongues, and it is surprisingly consistent with what Catholic Charismatic theologians have been saying all along. Here is the citation: *Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging *148 (2006) 67–71, “The measurement of regional cerebral blood flow during glossolalia: A preliminary SPECT study”.

Second, the whole thing about “fainting” is a practice of some (okay, many) Charismatic groups, often as part of healing services (not the same as healing Masses). This practice of fainting (or “resting in the Spirit”, to use the current jargon) actually is a Protestant innovation from the late 19th century that developed in the Holiness Movement before the Pentecostal movement began in the early 1900’s.

Those early Pentecostals were Holiness adherents who simply brought the practice with them. It is one of those “accidents” of the Charismatic Renewal that is not part of the “substance” (not found in Scripture nor in the practice of the early Church) and that can safely be put aside.

 

[LRH1957]

Leon Joseph Cardinal Suenens (1904-1996)
For the 25th anniversary of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in 1992, Cardinal Suenens wrote a special article:

I believe that the Charismatic Renewal provides an answer to one of the most urgent pastoral questions now facing the Church today: how to transform nominal Christians into authentic Christians.
Christians today have to rediscover the heart of the Christian message; they have been sufficiently “sacramentalised;” they have not been sufficiently “evangelized”. We are now faced with the task of rediscovering and explaining what really makes a Christian. We must help Christians to become more continually aware of their faith and to live it on a more personal level. Many must exchange a sociological or an inherited Christianity for a full and active life of faith, based on a personal decision and embraced with full consciousness.
From my experience of the Charismatic Renewal, I strongly believe that this special action of the Holy Spirit today constitutes an answer to the questions now facing the Church. The personal experience of those who have been “renewed in the Holy Spirit” include several constant elements that favor the transformation of passive Christians into active ones.
(The Tablet, 19th September 1992)
The Cardinal concludes as follows:
The personal experience of thousands of men and women in the Charismatic Renewal indicates one answer. Through this action and other actions of the Spirit, we can hope that Christians may once again be recognized as people who have been converted to Christ, have ratified the sacraments of their Christian initiation, and who open themselves, in expectant faith, to the action of the Holy Spirit and to His gifts.

 

[LRH1957]

Catholic Charismatic Renewal - At the Heart of the Church?
Part II
by Charles Whitehead

Most people know someone whose life has been changed for better through their contact with the Charismatic Renewal. Many have come to a personal, living faith in Jesus Christ, and have discovered the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit. Some have experienced emotional or physical healing. Others have returned to the Church and committed themselves to a new life of service, and many have properly understood the basic message of the Gospel for the first time. We can also point to the thousands who regularly gather together to pray, to the dynamic new communities, and to the special ministries which have sprung up all over the world. So there are many good results–or as we might put it, good fruit. In the light of all this, what has been formally and officially said about the Charismatic Renewal by those in positions of authority in the Church? Here is just a small selection of the many official statements.

The Mission of the Covenant Communities
In November 1990, the Catholic Fraternity of Covenant Communities was officially recognized by the Pontifical Council for the Laity as a private association of the Christian faithful with this hope:

“It is the hope of the Pontifical Council for the Laity that such recognition may increase the spiritual fruits of the charismatic movement, which, in the period following the Second Vatican Council, has undoubtedly contributed to a fuller awareness and acceptance at all levels in the Church of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit.”

The Work of the International Council
Then, in September 1993, the Pontifical Council for the Laity decreed the recognition of ICCRS (International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services) as a body for the promotion of CR worldwide, with a juridical personality, and approved their Statutes in a Decree which includes these words:

“There are many signs throughout the world by which we can see the fruits of the Spirit. Currents, movements, and testimonies of holiness renew the communion and the mission of the Church, built on hierarchical and charismatic gifts. Among them are the Catholic Charismatic Renewal or Renewal in the Spirit, and the new forms of community life arising from it.”

The Charismatic Renewal in the Local Church
In 1993 the Irish Episcopal Conference issued a positive statement on the CCR which included the following paragraph:

“The Irish Bishops have seen many fruits of the Charismatic Renewal during the past twenty years. Thousands have found deeper commitment to Christ, a deep love for the Holy Scriptures, and openness to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, profound gifts of prayer including spontaneous prayer, greater understanding of the Eucharist and of the Church, and a fruitful love of their brothers and sisters.”

The Importance of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit
On two recent occasions (June 24th, 1993 and March 16th, 1994) Pope John Paul II spoke at his weekly public audience on the subject of the charismatic gifts. He called attention to the charisms in their quality as gifts belonging to the ordinary life of the Church, and pointed out that the primary or principle aim of many charisms is not the personal sanctification of those who receive them, but the service of others and the Church’s welfare.

Our Contribution to the Mission of the Church
Then on March 14th, 1992, at an audience to mark the twenty-fifth anniversary of the CCR, Pope John Paul II said:

“As you calibrate the twenty-fifth anniversary of the beginning of the CCR, I willingly join in giving praise to God for the many fruits which it has borne in the life of the Church. The emergence of the Renewal following the Second Vatican Council was a particular gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church.”

The above examples are just snap-shots taken from a few official statements made in recent years. There are many, many more which could have been quoted. The reason I have quoted these few here is not to try to defend the Charismatic Renewal, nor to claim that everything is perfect, but to try and see how the Church is discerning and understanding the Renewal and its call. If we look at what has been said and published by Popes Paul VI and John Paul II, and by the Pontifical Councils and Episcopal Conferences, we find that in their evaluation of the fruit of the Charismatic Renewal, a number of key areas emerge.

An Evaluation of the Charismatic Renewal
The discernment of the Church is that those involved in the Charismatic Renewal are seen to have:

a greater awareness of the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit
a deeper commitment to Jesus Christ
a desire to live the Christian calling more fully
an appreciation and acceptance of the charismatic gifts
an increasing desire to read the Scriptures
love of Eucharist
a commitment to prayer
a thirst for personal holiness
new forms of community life
a commitment to apostolic activity
a willingness to witness to their faith and to evangelize
a love for one another
a faithfulness to the Church
a desire to serve the local Church, to bloom where they have been planted

More could be included, but this is a very encouraging list. The Church has seen the considerable fruit which has grown in the last twenty-five years, and is saying to us that the call of the Charismatic Renewal is to produce this sort of fruit in the lives of individuals and in the local Church. So, how are we doing?

 

[LRH1957]

What Are Charisms and Why Are They Important?

In order to understand why charisms are important we first need to understand what the mission of the Church is. The Documents of Vatican II describe the mission of the Church as follows:
“The church was founded to spread the kingdom of God over all the earth for the glory of God the Father, to make all men partakers in redemption and salvation, and through them to establish the right relationship of the entire world to Christ.” (Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity, Sec. 2).

This three fold mission can be stated as follows:

Evangelization–announcing the Good News that through the Father’s love, Jesus’ life, death and resurrection make it possible for all to be reconciled to God and receive the fullness of salvation (John 3:16).

Sanctification–helping us to live lives of holiness as children of God.

Renewal of the Temporal Order–restoring all things - social, moral, economic, natural - to right order and proper relationship as created by God.

The Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity also states that our Baptism calls us into full life in the Church. Our Baptism also calls us to share in the responsibility of carrying out the mission of the Church.

Our Baptism not only calls us to share in the responsibility in the Church’s mission, but at the same time empowers each person with the charisms needed to fulfill that responsibility.

“For the exercise of the apostolate (God) gives the faithful special gifts… for the building up of the whole Body in charity… From the reception of these Charisms, even the most ordinary ones, there arises for each of the faithful the right and duty of exercising them in the Church and in the world for the good of men and development of the Church, exercising them in the freedom of the Holy Spirit who breaths where he wills, and at the same time in communion with his brothers in Christ and with his pastors, especially.” (Sec. 3)

The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church offers a description of what is meant by the term Charism: “…(God) distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. By these gifts he makes them fit and ready to undertake various tasks and offices for the renewal and up-building of the Church. Whether these Charisms be very remarkable or simple and widely diffused, they are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation since they are fitting and useful for the needs of the Church.” (Sec. 12)

Charisms are special graces, movements of the Holy Spirit not limited to the sacraments and ministrations of the Church; rather, they are special ways in which God works through the individual.
Charisms are given to all members of the Body (1 Cor 12:7), not limited to positions, offices or degrees of sanctity.
Charisms make the individual fit and ready for service, enabling them to effectively participate in the Church’s mission.
Charisms are given for the purpose of the renewal and up-building of the Church, making the Church capable of accomplishing its mission.
Charisms may be the remarkable charismatic gifts of 1 Cor 12:8-10 and the more common gifts of Eph 4:11 and Rom 12:7-8, or many, many others!
In proclaiming that each person is gifted by God with Charisms to be used to further the mission of the Church, the Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity stressed the importance that these charisms be used: A member who does not work at the growth of the body to the extent of his possibilities must be considered useless both to the Church and himself. (Sec. 2) It is only by each member using his/her charisms to their full potential that the Church reaches its full potential as the Body of Christ (Eph 4:15-16).

Only when the Church is operating at its full potential is the mission of evangelization, sanctification and renewal of the temporal order a possibility. The mission cannot be achieved by human effort; it requires the working of the Spirit through the charisms! Thus it is of vital importance to the Church’s mission that each person is aware of their role and of their charisms of service that empower them to carry it out!

 

[The_Theotokos]

Do people have to come to your parishes for this to happen or do you reach out and spread the Gospel also? This is a serious question.

We have various events throughout the year to introduce people to the Melkite tradition. But generally speaking, the people that come to our parish are Arab Catholics, as this is the tradition of their heritage.

 

[Marnica01]

Additionally, I should have noted that the word “Mass” comes from the dismissal of the catechumens, not the baptized faithful.The point of which was to remove the unbaptized from being exposed to the sacredness of the Eucharist prematurely. It was considered far too solemn prior to being baptized into Christ’s Resurrection. Some Eastern Churches still follow this practice. I am not sure where you are getting your information.

Actually, my parish continues that practice. But my point had more to do with the meaning of the dismissal in the modern Mass, where it does indeed function to send out the baptized to evangelize the world.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one. For me, the Resurrection is the point of the Mass. Without it, there would be no Mass. This does not deny the reality of the Sacrifice of the Mass, when that is properly understood (usually mis-understood by Protestants and even some Catholics who wrongly think that Jesus is being crucified again). It simply puts that Sacrifice into a post-Resurrection perspective.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Well, LRH. I’ve read all of your posts. I’ve read most of this before. And again, I stand by my position that the Church of Rome is putting itself at great risk by supporting such without better regulation of both the accidents and the substance of the Charismatic Renewal Movement. I am, therefore, most grateful to God that He has seen it fit to allow me to find my home within the Melkite Church, where such a Movement has no place.

I’m sorry I cannot be more supportive of your interest in this group.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Actually, my parish continues that practice.

Wonderful! I thought it was falling out of fashion just about everywhere. It’s good to see that it has not.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one. For me, the Resurrection is the point of the Mass. Without it, there would be no Mass.

Indeed it is true that the Resurrection is the purpose of the Mass, but it’s not the substance of the Mass. That was the point I was trying to relay to you. It’s a solemn event and while joyful in anticipation, the reality of the crucifixion is very much the central reality of the Mass, both theologically and realistically.

Additionally, ask yourself why the charisms that the Movement hold as so important existed in abundance in the early Church and yet, the early Church evolved, from the very beginning with a solemn expression of the Mass? These ancient liturgies are nothing like charismatic Masses.

 

[LRH1957]

Well, LRH. I’ve read all of your posts. I’ve read most of this before. And again, I stand by my position that the Church of Rome is putting itself at great risk by supporting such without better regulation of both the accidents and the substance of the Charismatic Renewal Movement. I am, therefore, most grateful to God that He has seen it fit to allow me to find my home within the Melkite Church, where such a Movement has no place.

I’m sorry I cannot be more supportive of your interest in this group.

Well I certainly didn’t expect any support as you have made up your mind long ago and that’s OK of course. It’s your choice. The posts are for people that haven’t read it before and haven’t made up their minds. You’re still my brother in Christ with that rather dry sense of humor! LOL

But I think you previously mentioned that you believe it is a Protestant heresy infiltrating the Church. I think that means you believe that the leaders of the Church are leading the way. This is where we disagree if that is the case. So unless you are the Pope (smiling?), I will follow the leaders of the Church and what they encourage us to do and I will continue to pray for myself, you and all others that we may find the truth.

I respect your passion for defending your faith even if I disagree with only some of what you say and I enjoy your wit! Blessings to you. We both need some sleep now I think!

 

[The_Theotokos]

Well I certainly didn’t expect any support as you have made up your mind long ago and that’s OK of course. It’s your choice. The posts are for people that haven’t read it before and haven’t made up their minds. You’re still my brother in Christ with that rather dry sense of humor! LOL

But I think you previously mentioned that you believe it is a Protestant heresy infiltrating the Church. I think that means you believe that the leaders of the Church are leading the way. This is where we disagree if that is the case. So unless you are the Pope (smiling?), I will follow the leaders of the Church and what they encourage us to do and I will continue to pray for myself, you and all others that we may find the truth.

I respect your passion for defending your faith even if I disagree with only some of what you say and I enjoy your wit! Blessings to you. We both need some sleep now I think!

In short, what I believe is:

A) The leaders of the Church of Rome have taken on a spirit of tolerance toward practices that would have been shunned prior to Vatican II. Ironically, Vatican II was fantastic for the Eastern Churches, so I cannot complain too much. LOL

B) The leaders of the Church of Rome have not been given accurate accounts of the events surrounding the movement, particularly in the United States. I assume this using logical deduction.

C) What is now known as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement is a dynamic born in Pentecostalism and does not reflect the mysteries of the historical Pentecost. If Protestantism is heretical, then what is born out of it, must be suspect as well.

D) The Charismatic Renewal Movement is not necessary for a Church that has access to the true Sacraments that bestow on us all the Grace from God available to mankind.

E) The acceptance of practices that even resemble Protestant services or worship forms is problematic as, over time, it can threaten the very traditions Catholics hold so dear.

That is a clear summary of why I feel the way I do. I hope this helps.

 

[LRH1957]

A) The leaders of the Church of Rome have taken on a spirit of tolerance toward practices that would have been shunned prior to Vatican II. Ironically, Vatican II was fantastic for the Eastern Churches, so I cannot complain too much. LOL

It does help me understand when you explain you have issues with Vatican II. This goes way beyond CCR. I hope one day we all don’t view this as a competition between our churches. We are not united due to sin somewhere along the way. You see the enemy wins some small battles (but not the war) when we spend our time diverted by these discussions and not out there evangelizing and spreading the Gospel. I wish and pray we are all one Body someday.

B) The leaders of the Church of Rome have not been given accurate accounts of the events surrounding the movement, particularly in the United States. I assume this using logical deduction.

We disagree here. That is just not the case. I fully agree with what the popes said about yielding to the Spirit but do so under the authority of the Church.

C) What is now known as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement is a dynamic born in Pentecostalism and does not reflect the mysteries of the historical Pentecost. If Protestantism is heretical, then what is born out of it, must be suspect as well.

Again I respectfully disagree. It’s a dynamic born of Pentecost! There have been books written about this by Catholic theologians (McDonnel and Montague?) about how this was normal in the early church and should be today.

D) The Charismatic Renewal Movement is not necessary for a Church that has access to the true Sacraments that bestow on us all the Grace from God available to mankind.

I agree that the movement is not necessary to receive the graces available in the Sacraments. The CCR is only one small the the Spirit is acting in current times to empower the Church for its mission of spreading the Gospel. This means out there in every day life. “Be in the world, but not of the world.”

The impression I get from your posts is that in your Eastern Rite you have all the sacraments, the correct way of praise and worship and all people have to do is come to our churches to find the grace that is there. My guess is that my impression from your posts doesn’t present the complete mission of your church.

What our church leaders are saying is that we need to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth and we need the power of the Holy Spirit to do it. Again CCR is only one way the Spirit is acting in these times while evil “appears” to be flourishing.

E) The acceptance of practices that even resemble Protestant services or worship forms is problematic as, over time, it can threaten the very traditions Catholics hold so dear.

What the Church of Rome leaders have stated in the other posts is that living a life in the Spirit and all they have described it means is CATHOLIC. If the protestants do some of those things so be it.

Another point is what we should hold dear is God’s love. Seek first the Kingdom of God. Love God with all our heart, mind and soul, not any traditions. Sometimes people hold traditions so dear because that is their preference, what they like, what they are comfortable with. Sometimes the Spirit shakes us up to get us out of our comfort zones. Frankly I believe (from personal experience of myself and many others), that we grow spiritually the most when we are shaken up via life’s trials. I’ve learned much more via painful experiences than when things are going great.

So if we are holding on to traditions because we are comfortable with them are they leading us toward God should be asked? In many cases they do and many they don’t. We can understand and yield to the graces or we can go through the motions like robots.

That is a clear summary of why I feel the way I do. I hope this helps.

It helps me understand that your issues with the Church of Rome go way beyond CCR and include Vatican II and how the Magisterium has responded to it. So yes it helps in this discussion to.

I truly respect your passion for protecting what you hold dear. Even if we disagree, that’s what comes across in your posts and I appreciate that. On top of that, you’re just a funny guy!

 

[The_Theotokos]

It does help me understand when you explain you have issues with Vatican II. This goes way beyond CCR. I hope one day we all don’t view this as a competition between our churches. We are not united due to sin somewhere along the way. You see the enemy wins some small battles (but not the war) when we spend our time diverted by these discussions and not out there evangelizing and spreading the Gospel. I wish and pray we are all one Body someday.

My only issues with Vatican II involve certain inconsistencies that have opened the door to abuses. The Extraordinary form of the Mass wasn’t broken. The liturgy didn’t need fixing. But in an effort to make it accessible and more relevant to the modern world perhaps, it has lost so much of its beauty and spirit. But as I indicated, Vatican II was very good to Eastern Catholics, so I don’t have as much of a problem with it as you might think.

We disagree here. That is just not the case. I fully agree with what the popes said about yielding to the Spirit but do so under the authority of the Church.

How can either of us know for sure what the situation is here? We can only speculate. And from my personal experiences with the inner workings of the Church (I have the benefit, or perhaps the curse, of knowing such), the Church leaders are very much kept in a bubble surrounding events that take place on the front line of Christianity, so to speak. Additionally, I doubt very much the Church leaders of Rome would endorse anything that has led to the abuses I have seen. Logically, they can’t be getting the whole picture.

Again I respectfully disagree. It’s a dynamic born of Pentecost! There have been books written about this by Catholic theologians (McDonnel and Montague?) about how this was normal in the early church and should be today.

Can you prove this point without using sources that support the Movement’s interests? Do you know of an author that has a time machine that can go back and prove to us that the mysteries of Pentecost resemble this Charismatic Renewal behavior? The theology just isn’t that clear. I seriously doubt the Holy Spirit took off for 1900 years and then all of a sudden returned in a vengeance out of the minds of the sexual revolution. Also, if it is Catholic in practice, why behave like a Protestants?

I agree that the movement is not necessary to receive the graces available in the Sacraments. The CCR is only one small the the Spirit is acting in current times to empower the Church for its mission of spreading the Gospel. This means out there in every day life. “Be in the world, but not of the world.”

The impression I get from your posts is that in your Eastern Rite you have all the sacraments, the correct way of praise and worship and all people have to do is come to our churches to find the grace that is there. My guess is that my impression from your posts doesn’t present the complete mission of your church.

What our church leaders are saying is that we need to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth and we need the power of the Holy Spirit to do it. Again CCR is only one way the Spirit is acting in these times while evil “appears” to be flourishing.

I think you would be surprised by the accomplishments of my eastern parish. Our bishop is accessible and is not just some administrator sitting behind a desk. He services his flock well. But we are not a missionary group. That is not the function of a parish, nor should it be in the west.

What the Church of Rome leaders have stated in the other posts is that living a life in the Spirit and all they have described it means is CATHOLIC. If the protestants do some of those things so be it. Another point is what we should hold dear is God’s love. Seek first the Kingdom of God. Love God with all our heart, mind and soul, not any traditions.

Sometimes people hold traditions so dear because that is their preference, what they like, what they are comfortable with. Sometimes the Spirit shakes us up to get us out of our comfort zones. Frankly I believe (from personal experience of myself and many others), that we grow spiritually the most when we are shaken up via life’s trials. I’ve learned much more via painful experiences than when things are going great.

So if we are holding on to traditions because we are comfortable with them are they leading us toward God should be asked? In many cases they do and many they don’t. We can understand and yield to the graces or we can go through the motions like robots.

Those traditions are what make us Catholic! To replace them, dismiss them, or to shadow them by some other purpose is the very essence of Protestantism. Your statement here only further supports my point that this Charismatic Renewal Movement is dangerous, as its adherents have a corrupted understanding of the nature of Catholicism. You might know what the word means, but you appear to fail to understand, or remember, that the Catholic Church’s authority derives not only from Scripture but also from Tradition. We cannot use one without the other, nor can we modify Tradition to meet certain people’s needs. To do so is to, once again, be Protestant.

It helps me understand that your issues with the Church of Rome go way beyond CCR and include Vatican II and how the Magisterium has responded to it. So yes it helps in this discussion to.

In my opinion, the Church of Rome has lost a bit of its identity in recent years. Under His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, the Church of Rome is slowly returning to the ideals that made it strong in the first place. I only want what is best for the Church, as I suspect you do as well.

Continued…

 

[The_Theotokos]

I truly respect your passion for protecting what you hold dear. Even if we disagree, that’s what comes across in your posts and I appreciate that. On top of that, you’re just a funny guy!

I actually respect yours as well. Ironically, and you might find this strange, I would feel better about the Charismatic Renewal Movement if it had its own rite. Or better, it’s own sui iuris Church. Since it certainly behaves as its own liturgical rite, perhaps it should be given one, rather than be allowed to infiltrate and modify one that doesn’t need changing.