Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[vz71]

It worked until the Protestant Reformation. And then, little by little, those decisions came back to bite us in the rear.

Now, thanks to the Lutheran Movement, we have Jehovah’s Witnesses at our door every week telling us not to worship our Christmas trees and Easter bunnies.

Which actually dovetails nicely into another trait I have seen of this Movement. Their willingness to go out in public and tell everyone around them about their faith.

Now of course there are oddballs out there that are going to tell incorrect things, but they still may bring Protestants to Mass, and eventually back in to the church.
to say nothing of the testimony the authentic ones will have when they publicly tell of their church and the Mass.

Perhaps we are looking at step 1 of a grander plan to bring the protestant movement back into line?

 

[mantilla410]

Now, thanks to the Lutheran Movement, we have Jehovah’s Witnesses at our door every week telling us not to worship our Christmas trees and Easter bunnies.

Ain’t that the truth! :yup:

 

[The_Theotokos]

Perhaps we are looking at step 1 of a grander plan to bring the protestant movement back into line?

I have come to learn that God makes good of all things. So we could very well be looking at such a grand plan. But often, if we make it so that He doesn’t have to always fix everything, our lives often turn out a bit easier. My bottom line is that we shouldn’t have to make Catholicism more appealing to Protestants.

The truth should just remain the truth.

 

[LRH1957]

Which actually dovetails nicely into another trait I have seen of this Movement. Their willingness to go out in public and tell everyone around them about their faith.

Not sure which movement you are referring to here but the mission of the Church is to evangelize. There are many ways to do this, in fact through our Baptism we are called to participate in this mission. Maybe another thread?

 

[LRH1957]

I have come to learn that God makes good of all things. So we could very well be looking at such a grand plan. But often, if we make it so that He doesn’t have to always fix everything, our lives often turn out a bit easier. My bottom line is that we shouldn’t have to make Catholicism more appealing to Protestants.

The truth should just remain the truth.

Ahh, but that is the crux of the matter. They are making Catholicism more Catholic! We need to power of the Spirit to carry out the mission of the church, to spread the gospel. If we do it on our strength, it is doomed as we don’t have any.

What is the mission of the Eastern Rite? How do you carry out that mission? Do you need to power of the Spirit to do it? These are honest questions.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Ahh, but that is the crux of the matter. They are making Catholicism more Catholic! We need to power of the Spirit to carry out the mission of the church, to spread the gospel. If we do it on our strength, it is doomed as we don’t have any.

What is the mission of the Eastern Rite? How do you carry out that mission? Do you need to power of the Spirit to do it? These are honest questions.

Maybe in name, but not necessarily in flavor.

We do everything in the Eastern Churches according to good and correct Christian theology. We tend to be very resistant to modification as we don’t believe modification is necessary. The Holy Spirit is entirely active in everything we do, so in a sense, we are very charismatic (little c), but would never adopt the Charismatic Movement (capital C).

Does this answer your question? If not, how can I be more specific to what you are asking? I am more than happy to help you to understand our tradition.

 

[Marnica01]

Please explain what you mean by that.

Really, I am taking issue with your statement that the Charismatic Renewal is a Protestant heresy, which you seem to hold even though it has Biblical foundation, its roots can be traced back through at least the first eight centuries of the Church’s history (McDonnel and Montague’s book, “Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries”), and three Popes have accepted it into the heart of the Church.

I am trying to figure out why you would call it a Protestant heresy given all that (unless you are just deliberately overstating your case for effect).

The parallel with Protestant reasoning is as follows: The fundamental Protestant approach is to begin with a philosophical position and then to use it as the standard against which to judge everything else: the Bible, the Church, Morals, you name it. Luther did this, Calvin did it, John Cramner did it, John Wesley did it, the Episcopaleans are still doing it, the Baptists are still doing it, and so on and on.

Thus, a Protestant will not accept anything in the Bible that contradicts his or her a priori commitments. Thus, for example, they reject the authority of the Church even though it is clearly stated in Scripture. They reject the role of Peter as the foundation for the Papacy even though this too can clearly be demonstrated in Scripture. Some of them (e.g., Episcopaleans) accept homosexuality as a moral lifestyle (even for their clergy) even though Scripture says the opposite.

Likewise, they reject Church teachings that go back at least to the second century (like the Motherhood of Mary and many others) because they are ruled out by their a priori committments.

So what I noticed is that you seem to begin with a negative assessment of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and, based on that a priori commitment, regard scripture, history, and Papal endorsements to the contrary as unimportant, leaving you with your initial assessment that the Renewal is Protestant Heresy.

BTW, as I have noted in other posts, I agree that the Charismatic Renewal has indeed derailed in some parishes, although it is wonderful in others. I am trying to do my little part in my community to fix things – to help guide my Charismatic Catholic brothers and sisters away from the abuses of the past toward a more authentic, more Biblically-based, more truly Catholic living of the Renewal.

 

[vz71]

I have come to learn that God makes good of all things. So we could very well be looking at such a grand plan. But often, if we make it so that He doesn’t have to always fix everything, our lives often turn out a bit easier. My bottom line is that we shouldn’t have to make Catholicism more appealing to Protestants.

The truth should just remain the truth.

I am certain there were people saying the same thing when the church instituted Holy Days on top of pagan festivals.

And perhaps in 2000 more years they may be able to show difficulties readily attributable to the Movement just as some can draw a line from Christmas and Easter to perceived ‘worship’ of trees and stray rabbits.

 

[vz71]

Really, I am taking issue with your statement that the Charismatic Renewal is a Protestant heresy…

Please point out the specific post where the Movement is stated to be a protestant heresy.
I missed it.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Really, I am taking issue with your statement that the Charismatic Renewal is a Protestant heresy, which you seem to hold even though it has Biblical foundation, its roots can be traced back through at least the first eight centuries of the Church’s history

Please read my post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4868584&postcount=116

I am trying to figure out why you would call it a Protestant heresy given all that (unless you are just deliberately overstating your case for effect).

Because of the above.

So what I noticed is that you seem to begin with a negative assessment of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and, based on that a priori commitment, regard scripture, history, and Papal endorsements to the contrary as unimportant, leaving you with your initial assessment that the Renewal is Protestant Heresy.

I know it seems this way to you based upon my posts, but I have actually initially approached the Movement with an open mind.

Papal endorsements are not ex cathedra statements. The faithful does not have to accept such on faith. Like the Shroud of Turin. The Vatican says it is okay to venerate it as the burial cloth of Christ, but I don’t find the science convincing enough to do so. This is okay with the Church. It means the Church actually lets us follow our own conscience on all matters.

BTW, as I have noted in other posts, I agree that the Charismatic Renewal has indeed derailed in some parishes, although it is wonderful in others. I am trying to do my little part in my community to fix things – to help guide my Charismatic Catholic brothers and sisters away from the abuses of the past toward a more authentic, more Biblically-based, more truly Catholic living of the Renewal.

I am glad to hear such.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Please point out the specific post where the Movement is stated to be a protestant heresy.
I missed it.

I think Marnica is talking about this one: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4866721&postcount=63

 

[Marnica01]

This theology is not entirely correct. While there is indeed an anticipation for the coming Resurrection, it is to be no more anticipated than when the crucifixion first happened on the wood of the Cross. The Mass is not the Resurrection, it is the Crucifixion in anticipation of the Resurrection. Huge difference.

I cannot agree. The very word “Mass” comes from the dismissal at the end when the Celebrant sends us out to evangelize the world. As such, it really is a replay of the Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20. This would make no sense whatever if we had just witnessed the Crucifixion without the Resurrection.

Moreover, the various forms of the Memorial Acclamation (e.g., “Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again”, or “Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life”) focus us squarely on the Resurrection.

Finally, the core of the Mass is the Eucharist, the name of which comes from the Greek word for Thanksgiving. Without the Resurrection, there could be no Thanksgiving as St Paul makes clear in 1 Cor 15.

So it seems clear that the Mass is a celebration and a commissioning – and a cause for great joy.

 

[LRH1957]

Maybe in name, but not necessarily in flavor.

We do everything in the Eastern Churches according to good and correct Christian theology. We tend to be very resistant to modification as we don’t believe modification is necessary. The Holy Spirit is entirely active in everything we do, so in a sense, we are very charismatic (little c), but would never adopt the Charismatic Movement (capital C).

Does this answer your question? If not, how can I be more specific to what you are asking? I am more than happy to help you to understand our tradition.

What is the mission of your church? Why does it exist?

 

[The_Theotokos]

I cannot agree. The very word “Mass” comes from the dismissal at the end when the Celebrant sends us out to evangelize the world. As such, it really is a replay of the Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20. This would make no sense whatever if we had just witnessed the Crucifixion without the Resurrection.

Moreover, the various forms of the Memorial Acclamation (e.g., “Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again”, or “Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life”) focus us squarely on the Resurrection.

Finally, the core of the Mass is the Eucharist, the name of which comes from the Greek word for Thanksgiving. Without the Resurrection, there could be no Thanksgiving as St Paul makes clear in 1 Cor 15.

So it seems clear that the Mass is a celebration and a commissioning – and a cause for great joy.

You can disagree all you want. The Magisterium is clear on this issue. This is not my opinion, you know that right?

 

[The_Theotokos]

What is the mission of your church? Why does it exist?

The same as any parish. A means to receive the sacraments, receive the Word of God, increase Grace. All those good things.

 

[aloneinjax]

Actually, I agree with you. Speaking in tongues is a private prayer language, according to St Paul. It is not intended for use in public worship, as St Paul makes crystal clear. Yet while he discourages its use in public worship, he does allow for it under certain strict conditions (1 Cor 14:27-28).

As to whether it is gibberish… well, any language I don’t understand sounds like gibberish to me. According to St Paul, God understands it, so it cannot be gibberish to Him.

Hmm…a foreign language is one thing but tongues? I am just very leery about people getting to the point where they are fainting. That, for me, is a bit too dramatic and done more for show than actual reverence to the Lord.

 

[nfabienne]

I think it would be fair to say that with any group and within any group there are those who are genuine and those who are not, those who are fanatical and those who are not. what I am trying to say is we should be looking for the good fruits, we are doing the same things others do in denouncing the whole group because some within it may be wrong. Weren’t we told in scripture it would be this way aren’t we asked to use caution but test the spirits. I have read comments against the Catholic Church where the argument seems the same, some fanatical Catholics may scare people from joining our faith and some lacking in manners,love and kindness just prove we don’t practice what we preach again scarring away possible converts to our faith. I guess the point I’m trying to make is don’t let a few rotten apples spoil the whole bunch. Try to learn more about this movement before you completely knock it.
I have been researching on speaking in tongues as someone mentioned it is not in tradition of the early Church, I have a book The Story of Christianity by David Bently Hart where the author tells how the earliest church met and worshiped. As Follows:
Having no houses of worship of their own,Christians met in private dwellings,therefore,naturally included not only as a celebration of the Lord’s Supper, but an actual shared meal. They met on the first day of the week Sunday,the day of Jesus’ resurrection. The worship of the community generally consisted of Psalms and hymns,mutual exhortation and teaching,prophecy,glossolalia(praying in tongues) and healings. This was the form in which the new faith expanded throughout the eastern half and into the western half of the Roman empire, establishing itself in cities like Antioch and Alexandria, as well as Rome itself. This is from the chapter The Growth Of the early Church. Just wanted to share what I read this morning. (no one ever fainted at the prayer meeting I attended)

 

[The_Theotokos]

I cannot agree. The very word “Mass” comes from the dismissal at the end when the Celebrant sends us out to evangelize the world.

Additionally, I should have noted that the word “Mass” comes from the dismissal of the catechumens, not the baptized faithful.The point of which was to remove the unbaptized from being exposed to the sacredness of the Eucharist prematurely. It was considered far too solemn prior to being baptized into Christ’s Resurrection. Some Eastern Churches still follow this practice. I am not sure where you are getting your information.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I guess the point I’m trying to make is don’t let a few rotten apples spoil the whole bunch. Try to learn more about this movement before you completely knock it.

Some of us have and still don’t feel the Movement is in the best interest of the Church. If anything, the more I was exposed to it, the more I felt this way.

 

[nfabienne]

Theotokos, I don’t mean to be pushy or anything of that sort it’s just that my personal experience brought me closer to the Lord and The Church. I wouldn’t want anyone to be scared of a possibly well meaning group of people, but I do and can see your point, is it that if the movement of those who may be wrong in their teaching were to lead others astray and hurt the Church? I can understand, but I also know that Jesus’ promise is that the church will be victorious in the end. I trust His promise and anyone who is truly close to the Lord and His Church, I feel these people will know if they are being led astray by false teaching. So we must pray that the Holy Spirit guide this movement and pray that the false teachers are brought into the light for those trying to discern. God Bless:blush: I won’t be a pain and I’ll leave it as just be careful through prayer and discernment when making any decisions. There are always lessons to be learned whether it’s by making mistakes or learning from others mistakes God is always there teaching us something and guiding us to truth and love.