Catholic Charismatic Renewal

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vz71 said:
Would you find more comfort at a Lutheran service?
It does contain many of the same rites, just no validity.
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I think you are missing my point. I apologize if it is my lack of clarity that has made this so. My point has been from the beginning that because we, as Catholics, have a valid Mass, the reverence we demonstrate is essential. This isn’t just some Lord’s Supper remembrance ritual. This is the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The actual Body and Blood, the actual sacrifice on the Cross, the actual essence of God made flesh under the appearance of bread and wine, and actual transubstantiation. Because we hold this validity, we are then highly responsible for our behavior and exhibited respect.

So to answer your question, no, I would not be more comfortable at a Lutheran service. They could hop around, dance, and scream all they could want (even though that would be rare in Lutheranism), they still only have bread and wine up there. So again, I have never said (nor have I made it an issue) that a Charismatic Mass is invalid. If you look at my complete argument against the Charismatic Movement, you will see that clearly my problem concerns proper expression due to the sacrifice of Our Lord. Does this not confirm to you from the beginning that I acknowledge Charismatic Masses are valid? I just believe them to be highly inappropriate expressions of something that should be received in a spirit of true solemnity.
 
vz71 said:
Perhaps, but should I take the wikipedia’s word for it just because you agree with it?
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Do your own research then and come back and tell us what parts written there are inaccurate. I doubt you will find any.
Because the topic at hand is not Orthodoxy.
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Orthodoxy is the only arm of Christianity that the Catholic Church acknowledges to be valid. Wouldn’t their (name removed by moderator)ut, then, be essential to this debate? After all, people seem to be so impressed with the Charismatic Renewal Movement’s ability to convert Protestants, yet, this same movement would drive away Orthodoxy from reuniting with our Church, and they have seven valid sacraments, unlike Protestants! Also, Orthodoxy is as old as Catholicism, going back to the very beginning of Christianity and servicing the very same places recorded in the Bible. In light of many Charismatics using the augment that the Charismatic Movement isn’t a form of Protestantism, it’s a form of the early Church, I think it is telling that Orthodoxy doesn’t endorse the Charismatic Movement. So, I do, in fact, think their opinion is highly relevant to this discussion.
 
The_Theotokos said:
After all, people seem to be so impressed with the Charismatic Renewal Movement’s ability to convert Protestants, yet, this same movement would drive away Orthodoxy from reuniting with our Church,…
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I’m one of those that do not like the tongues thing, but see value in possibly bringing some protestants to the sacraments.
But you bring up a VERY important point about hindering the reunification with the Orthodox.
I truly believe we might see this in our lifetime (JOY!!).
I would hate to have another roadblock to that.

michel
 
cazayoux said:
I’m one of those that do not like the tongues thing, but see value in possibly bringing some protestants to the sacraments.
But you bring up a VERY important point about hindering the reunification with the Orthodox.
I truly believe we might see this in our lifetime (JOY!!).
I would hate to have another roadblock to that.

michel
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Michel,

Oh I know. We are so close in so many ways. Reunification with Orthodoxy is at the top of my list of intercessions.
 
Hi I found a few more links if you would like to take a look. :compcoff:

PBS website
pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week1037/commentary.html

This one is from a CCR site but still good info.
in-unity.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=1

Popes statements
religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm#Popes_Statements:

Pope Benedict in October of 2008
zenit.org/article-24123?l=english

And apparently he speaks about in the Book The Ratzinger Report in chapter 10, google only lets you preview up to ch. 9 go figure. I a may look into the local library see if I can get a copy. I don’t have the means to purchase it. I’ll let you know what I find. God Bless

“Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.” St Augustine of Hippo
 
I am asking all who participated in this discussion to try the following:
  1. Ask God: ask for Him to aide you in dealing with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Ask Him if this is from Him or not ?
  2. Consider checking out information at different websites:
    Christ the King Catholic Church: rc.net/lansing/ctk/
    Catholic Charismatic Center on the World Wide Web:
    catholiccharismatic.us/
    ****Inunity is an independent internet ministry of charismatic Catholics, loyal to the teachings of the Catholic Church and fully open to all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
    in-unity.org/.
Regards,
 
The_Theotokos said:
This is the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The actual Body and Blood, the actual sacrifice on the Cross, the actual essence of God made flesh under the appearance of bread and wine, and actual transubstantiation. Because we hold this validity, we are then highly responsible for our behavior and exhibited respect.
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Then your objection is precisely because it is valid?
correct?
 
vz71 said:
And they do not conform to what you believe to be proper behavior during the Mass.
correct?
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Correct, but what I believe is hardly as relevant as how the rubric and tradition defines solemn behavior.
 
vz71 said:
Can you explain this behavior?
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Well, this is easy. The year is around 33 A.D., give or take a few. The Son of God is dying on the cross. You stand at the foot of the cross, looking up at Him. You remember certain things He said about his sacrifice for the world and that He would rise again three days later, but at this very moment, you are experiencing His saving sacrifice first hand.

So, how does one (should one) behave in this situation?

Does one start dancing around the cross, laughing, speaking in tongues, clapping hands, praising God, shouting out Alleluia because they have been saved from the consequences of their sins?

Or does one fall to their knees in silence and awe, contemplating the implications of this saving action of pure Grace and redemption?
 
I believe one would yes be solemn, reflecting on all our Lord has gone through and done for us, but then also with great thanks and praise to our God for the resurrection of our Lord and with the coming Pentecost be then filled by the power of the Holy Spirit we should rejoice and proclaim Him to all the nations to proclaim His saving grace to all. Go forth out to the world and proclaim Him, His life and His death, His suffering and His joy. Jesus is not to be left in the solemnity of the mass, with this reverence we also need to share in His joy when we proclaim Him and His glory to those who do not know of Him. Then He too by His grace will lead them to His suffering and his sacrifice.
I agree the Mass is to be what it has always been. But there also needs to be rejoicing in the Lord. he does not want for us to walk around hanging our heads in sadness how then are we to be His lights and bring His joy into others lives. When we bring His joy to others and draw them unto Him we need to trust He will bring them also to His bride and His church. But we must be willing to be accepting in our church not judgmental we do not know all the motives of one’s heart only God does so lets accept each other with open hearts and arms and let the Holy Spirit move through our hearts and our church. God Bless
 
The_Theotokos said:
Well, this is easy. The year is around 33 A.D., give or take a few. The Son of God is dying on the cross. You stand at the foot of the cross, looking up at Him. You remember certain things He said about his sacrifice for the world and that He would rise again three days later, but at this very moment, you are experiencing His saving sacrifice first hand.

So, how does one (should one) behave in this situation?

Does one start dancing around the cross, laughing, speaking in tongues, clapping hands, praising God, shouting out Alleluia because they have been saved from the consequences of their sins?

Or does one fall to their knees in silence and awe, contemplating the implications of this saving action of pure Grace and redemption?
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Friend,
I have said it before and I’ll say it again. I am sorry you’ve witnessed such atrocities at Charismatic Masses. However, at the Charismatic Masses I attend, we all fall to our knees in silence and awe. There is reverent silence when reverent silence is called for, and reverent singing/responses when those are called for. Furthermore, as I have said before, I have seen far worse abuses in Masses that are not remotely Charismatic. The abuses are limited to the parish, not the movement. The Charismatic Movement, as Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI have said, is a good and holy movement. Your prejudice based on some bad experiences blinds you to its goodness.
I’m sure this has also been stated before in so circular and stubborn a discussion: in Mark 9, Jesus says that “whoever is not against us is for us.” In Matthew 7, He states that “by their fruits you will know them.” The Charismatic Renewal helps to build up the Church and bring masses of people into the Church. It is definitely “for us” as Catholics who are followers of Christ. I think it is also safe to say that the “fruits” of the Charismatic Renewal are good, in that people are brought to the Sacraments and to Jesus Christ in and through the Catholic Church.

Yours.
 
KephasAugustine said:
Friend,
I have said it before and I’ll say it again. I am sorry you’ve witnessed such atrocities at Charismatic Masses. However, at the Charismatic Masses I attend, we all fall to our knees in silence and awe. There is reverent silence when reverent silence is called for, and reverent singing/responses when those are called for. Furthermore, as I have said before, I have seen far worse abuses in Masses that are not remotely Charismatic. The abuses are limited to the parish, not the movement. The Charismatic Movement, as Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI have said, is a good and holy movement. Your prejudice based on some bad experiences blinds you to its goodness.
I’m sure this has also been stated before in so circular and stubborn a discussion: in Mark 9, Jesus says that “whoever is not against us is for us.” In Matthew 7, He states that “by their fruits you will know them.” The Charismatic Renewal helps to build up the Church and bring masses of people into the Church. It is definitely “for us” as Catholics who are followers of Christ. I think it is also safe to say that the “fruits” of the Charismatic Renewal are good, in that people are brought to the Sacraments and to Jesus Christ in and through the Catholic Church.

Yours.
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So are you telling me that if I unknowingly found myself at your parish, I would be unable to distinguish the Liturgy at this parish from any other Roman Catholic Church?
 
The_Theotokos said:
So are you telling me that if I unknowingly found myself at your parish, I would be unable to distinguish the Liturgy at this parish from any other Roman Catholic Church?
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That’s not what I said. What I said was that there are no liturgical abuses, no tongue-talking during Mass, and certainly no dancing. You might have a problem with a guitar being used, but that is hardly limited to Charismatic Masses.
 
KephasAugustine said:
That’s not what I said. What I said was that there are no liturgical abuses, no tongue-talking during Mass, and certainly no dancing. You might have a problem with a guitar being used, but that is hardly limited to Charismatic Masses.
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Other than the guitar, everything else would be indistinguishable?
 
The_Theotokos said:
Other than the guitar, everything else would be indistinguishable?
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That is correct.

Everyone here understands that speaking in tongues, clapping during praise music, and other Charismatic expressions of worship are reserved for other times and for forms of worship that are outside of the Mass. The Mass is, without exception, reverent, solemn, and entirely in line with the Catholic rubric.
 
KephasAugustine said:
That is correct.

Everyone here understands that speaking in tongues, clapping during praise music, and other Charismatic expressions of worship are reserved for other times and for forms of worship that are outside of the Mass. The Mass is, without exception, reverent, solemn, and entirely in line with the Catholic rubric.
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Well then, might I encourage you to speak to your pastor about the idea that your parish should be the standard by which all other Charismatic parishes should be held accountable to? Yours is not usual, you understand that, right? But I suspect yours is what the Popes had in mind when they endorsed this Movement. Your parish really should begin a ministry to reach out to the rest of the Charismatic Movement and teach them proper expression of their claims. For every Charismatic like you, there are countless others who are making you look bad.
 
The_Theotokos said:
Yours is not usual, you understand that, right? But I suspect yours is what the Popes had in mind when they endorsed this Movement. For ever Charismatic like you, there are countless others who are making you look bad.
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This is what I have been saying the whole time! The movement itself is not bad! There are those who make it look bad, sure, but there are those who make Catholicism in general look bad.

I’m glad you finally see what I’ve been saying (or trying to say). Please, if you would, stop putting the movement down. Learn about it, and you too will see its good fruits and its intrinsic holiness.

Peace of Christ be with you.
 
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