Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[vz71]

The experience of many others you speak of seems to be a reference to those within the Movement only. You seem to conveniently ignore how eastern Christians feel, Roman Catholics who are not in the Movement, even Protestants who don’t like it.

I have not asked the religious affiliation of anyone here.
Nor do I care. The statement that I am ‘conveniently’ ignoring the feelings of these groups is not based in fact and is demonstratably false.

That has become the thrust of the argument against it, yes, only because that is the largest problem.

Exactly. The main thrust of your argument against the movement is something that is not specific to the movement.

My point was that I am willing to guess that I have been exposed to much more of the Charismatic Movement, in more places, than anyone here. And no, I don’t care about the numbers, as I don’t have to prove to myself that my experiences are adequate.

I believe that would be presumptuous. I am quite certain there are a number of Catholics in this forum whose experience with this movement dwarfs ours.

The more this goes on, the more I find myself questioning the arguments against the movement. Mainly because of statements like “I am willing to guess that I have been exposed to much more of the Charismatic Movement, in more places, than anyone here.”
You have no way of knowing this, and there is every reason to believe otherwise.
It is foolishness for anyone to believe they have the most experience of anyone.
Laying claim to it only weakens the argument.

I’m questioning your motives. You don’t belong to the Movement. You question me as if I am making these points up. And you argue with me about everything, even things off topic. I believe you are arguing with me just for the sake of arguing.

I don’t mind having my motives questioned.
But I believe you are wrong, and I have a fair amount of certainty that I have a better understanding of my motivations then you.
Were you not condemning the movement for events the movement is not responsible for, I do not believe the debate would have progressed such.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I have not asked the religious affiliation of anyone here.
Nor do I care. The statement that I am ‘conveniently’ ignoring the feelings of these groups is not based in fact and is demonstratably false.

I think it is rather clear who belongs to what camp.

And yes, I believe you are ignoring the feelings of other groups. You quite clearly and directly ignored any references I placed concerning supporting arguments from these groups.

Exactly. The main thrust of your argument against the movement is something that is not specific to the movement.

Well, sometimes the worst offenders become the example. I feel that it all needs to be cleaned up. But this thread is on the Charismatic Movement, not General Liturgical Abuses.

I believe that would be presumptuous. I am quite certain there are a number of Catholics in this forum whose experience with this movement dwarfs ours.

Maybe in the forum, but probably not on this thread. At least, not from what I have read.

The more this goes on, the more I find myself questioning the arguments against the movement. Mainly because of statements like “I am willing to guess that I have been exposed to much more of the Charismatic Movement, in more places, than anyone here.”
You have no way of knowing this, and there is every reason to believe otherwise.
It is foolishness for anyone to believe they have the most experience of anyone.
Laying claim to it only weakens the argument.

Again, for the X time (I’ve lost track of how many times you’ve made me repeat myself), I am not the author of these arguments, I merely support them. A simple search on the subject will bring up any and all of the points I have offered. I have found them to be true, in my experience.

You enjoy playing with my words, don’t you? I stated I was willing to guess that my experience was greater, I never said , definitely, my experience was greater.

I don’t mind having my motives questioned.
But I believe you are wrong, and I have a fair amount of certainty that I have a better understanding of my motivations then you.

Fine, then please demonstrate your authentic motives by staying with the topic instead of arguing with me about who is interested in numbers, etc. as a means to attempt to undermine my integrity. I don’t mind debating with you. But you have derailed the direction of my argument on more than one occasion in this thread, then you try and pass it off as my doing.

Were you not condemning the movement for events the movement is not responsible for, I do not believe the debate would have progressed such.

I cannot believe I have to repeat this again.

For the record:

I completely understand and agree that liturgical abuses are not exclusive to the Charismatic Movement.

BUT…

They are among the worst offenders and their foundation (originating in Protestantism, strong focus on modernization, and obsession with supernatural phenomenon, etc.) lends itself to such abuses. Thus my position!

 

[vz71]

If you only knew the level of involvement I have had in such matters, the level of detail, I have been exposed to. You would do well to trust my opinion.

My point was that I am willing to guess that I have been exposed to much more of the Charismatic Movement, in more places, than anyone here.

IYou enjoy playing with my words, don’t you? I stated I was willing to guess that my experience was greater, I never said , definitely, my experience was greater.

Forgive me.
I am simply trying to reconcile what you are saying against previous posts.

The second quote by itself does not mean much, it could simply be a mis-step in the wording, Or it could be that you really do know the level of experience with the movement of everyone in this forum, Or it could be that you are simply guessing.

But then when I look at your post just a page earlier (the first quote), it tends to paint the second in a rather bad light.

 

[vz71]

Well, sometimes the worst offenders become the example. I feel that it all needs to be cleaned up. But this thread is on the Charismatic Movement, not General Liturgical Abuses.

Fair enough.
But I fail to see why liturgical abuse by some is a reason to throw out the entire movement.

 

[vz71]

Fine, then please demonstrate your authentic motives by staying with the topic instead of arguing with me about who is interested in numbers, etc. as a means to attempt to undermine my integrity. I don’t mind debating with you. But you have derailed the direction of my argument on more than one occasion in this thread, then you try and pass it off as my doing.

My apologies if it appears this way.
I have run through my posts, and I am actually surprised at how well I have maintained a single point. Usually I start wondering off topic by now, but apparently not this time.

I have stuck with the idea that condemnation of the entire movement for liturgical abuses of a few in it is not correct.

Now of course there were interesting side trips into other aspects of the debate, and a brief foray into numbers, but I never asked anyone to specify the number of times they have attended a Charismatic Mass. In fact, I do not believe I have asked anyone for specific numbers of anything.
Please correct me and accept my apologies if this is not the case.

 

[vz71]

They are among the worst offenders and their foundation (originating in Protestantism, strong focus on modernization, and obsession with supernatural phenomenon, etc.) lends itself to such abuses. Thus my position!

But the Charismatics are not the worst.
Assuming you are speaking fact and not opinion.

There are others groups that have been excommunicated for their practices.

Placing the two side by side, there is a stark difference between approval of Rome and excommunication.

 

[cazayoux]

Fair enough.
But I fail to see why liturgical abuse by some is a reason to throw out the entire movement.

The specific issue I have with ‘the movement’ is the speaking in tongues.
I do not believe these people are actually speaking in tongues.
It’s not a ‘gift’ you ‘show up’ for.

I see the individuals using this as proof the Holy Spirit is with them.
I wish their faith was strong enough to not need the proof.
I wish they wouldn’t put on the show.

To hear that this might be happening during a mass is infuriating to me.

My issue with ‘the movement’ as a whole is the community within the parish community. The undercurrent of a separate group is not conducive to the growth of the parish as a whole.

I’m glad for those in ‘the movement’ to have been led to action to be more involved with their faith and their community, but this should be done (and IS done) with the parish as a whole.

The tone of some within ‘the movement’ is that without ‘the movement’ their good actions would not have been possible.
I disagree and use many in my parish as proof.

I see the group-speaking-in-tongues thing as recent, and as others have said, a growth from protestantism.

michel

 

[The_Theotokos]

But the Charismatics are not the worst.
Assuming you are speaking fact and not opinion.

There are others groups that have been excommunicated for their practices.

Placing the two side by side, there is a stark difference between approval of Rome and excommunication.

Okay, then let’s qualify my statement to say that they are among the worse offenders who are still in communion with the Church. On what basis can you say otherwise?

 

[The_Theotokos]

I have stuck with the idea that condemnation of the entire movement for liturgical abuses of a few in it is not correct.

And if it were “a few” as you say, then I would be more open to your position. My experience suggests otherwise.

 

[vz71]

Okay, then let’s qualify my statement to say that they are among the worse offenders who are still in communion with the Church. On what basis can you say otherwise?

Only on the basis that it is opinion. you are free to it.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Fair enough.
But I fail to see why liturgical abuse by some is a reason to throw out the entire movement.

It isn’t. But when you combine the Liturgical abuses with the other problems, it makes my position seem more reasonable.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Forgive me.
I am simply trying to reconcile what you are saying against previous posts.

The second quote by itself does not mean much, it could simply be a mis-step in the wording, Or it could be that you really do know the level of experience with the movement of everyone in this forum, Or it could be that you are simply guessing.

But then when I look at your post just a page earlier (the first quote), it tends to paint the second in a rather bad light.

I was merely suggesting to you that, because I have no desire to lie to anyone on this forum or spread falsehoods for the sake of my own devious plot to destroy the Charismatic Movement, or what have you. LOL I was simply stating that, if you can trust me when I say I have had extensive experience in these matters, others will not be able to accuse me being of being ignorant to the Movement itself.

Basically, those inside the Movement tend to believe that those outside the Movement who don’t like the Movement, have hardened their hearts to the Holy Spirit. I am living proof that this is not true. But I cannot provide you with a reference to prove such. You’ll have to take me at my word.

 

[The_Theotokos]

The specific issue I have with ‘the movement’ is the speaking in tongues.
I do not believe these people are actually speaking in tongues.
It’s not a ‘gift’ you ‘show up’ for.

I see the individuals using this as proof the Holy Spirit is with them.
I wish their faith was strong enough to not need the proof.
I wish they wouldn’t put on the show.

To hear that this might be happening during a mass is infuriating to me.

My issue with ‘the movement’ as a whole is the community within the parish community. The undercurrent of a separate group is not conducive to the growth of the parish as a whole.

I’m glad for those in ‘the movement’ to have been led to action to be more involved with their faith and their community, but this should be done (and IS done) with the parish as a whole.

The tone of some within ‘the movement’ is that without ‘the movement’ their good actions would not have been possible.
I disagree and use many in my parish as proof.

I see the group-speaking-in-tongues thing as recent, and as others have said, a growth from protestantism.

michel

Excellent points. What justification, if any, gives a parish a right to form subgroups? Of course, there will be Charismatics that will say that anyone is welcome to participate and they would prefer that the entire parish gets involved, but those arguments are missing the point altogether, I think.

 

[PCM]

Caution is very important. I have been brought closer to Mary and our Lord via the messages from Medjugorje. Caution and healthy skepticism are needed here too as with the Charismatics. How about some feedback on the comparability of these? What is interesting about the Medjugorje messages is that they reaffirm the basics - the Eucharist and mass, prayer, fasting, reconciliation.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Caution is very important. I have been brought closer to Mary and our Lord via the messages from Medjugorje. Caution and healthy skepticism are needed here too as with the Charismatics. How about some feedback on the comparability of these? What is interesting about the Medjugorje messages is that they reaffirm the basics - the Eucharist and mass, prayer, fasting, reconciliation.

That’s a very good suggestion and probably more fruitful than our last posts.

If memory serves me, Medjugorje fell out of favor with the Church because the children retracted their statement that the visions were real. Three of them retracted the retraction and one insists that everyone was lying. Some believed the initial retractions were pressured by the Bishop of their diocese. I cannot remember for what reason this might have been.

 

[vz71]

Basically, those inside the Movement tend to believe that those outside the Movement who don’t like the Movement, have hardened their hearts to the Holy Spirit. I am living proof that this is not true. But I cannot provide you with a reference to prove such. You’ll have to take me at my word.

I cannot dispute the ‘us against them’ mentality I have seen prevail among those in the charismatic movement. In some instances, it may well be deserved as they are consistantly in the minority.
But I have seen quite a few instances where this attitude becomes an elitist attitude.

 

[vz71]

Excellent points. What justification, if any, gives a parish a right to form subgroups? Of course, there will be Charismatics that will say that anyone is welcome to participate and they would prefer that the entire parish gets involved, but those arguments are missing the point altogether, I think.

OK, I too missed that point.
What is wrong with a prayer group?

Many parishes have a mens club, ladies sodality, etc…
Is there some difference here that I have mmissed?

 

[vz71]

Caution is very important. I have been brought closer to Mary and our Lord via the messages from Medjugorje. Caution and healthy skepticism are needed here too as with the Charismatics. How about some feedback on the comparability of these? What is interesting about the Medjugorje messages is that they reaffirm the basics - the Eucharist and mass, prayer, fasting, reconciliation.

Agreed. Within a high energy service, there is always a danger of losing the focus.

I for one have seen too many making a show.

 

[The_Theotokos]

OK, I too missed that point.
What is wrong with a prayer group?

Many parishes have a mens club, ladies sodality, etc…
Is there some difference here that I have mmissed?

I don’t think we can classify the Charismatic Movement as a prayer group. Can we?

 

[phes3]

Dear Theotokos:
We are a prayer group, every week in my own exoerience I can tell you that we begin always with the Lord’s Prayer, the Hail Mary and then with the Lord of mercy or the Rosary. then we pray to the Lord for the sick, people with problems (lose jobs, need jobs, etc) for the armed forces for the end of the war, abortions, some or our member inform the group of the visits to the sick at the hospital, homes, some give food or collect money for someone in need, we talk about differents issues also give testimonies of the Power of the Almighty in our daily life. Then we sing and praise the Lord! asking for guidance and protection during our meeting, today we talk about the 10 commandments… How important they are in our lives as christians, We praise and sing again,the member who lead the group read a versicle of the Bible. and we pray in silence and meditate about what we read. Our meeting are about 2 hours mostly at the end we hold hands together again we finish with the Lord’s Prayer, and the Hail Mary. During our meeting also is someone present needs a prayer we laid hands and ask the Lord to be merciful and grace with their needs,some of our member start speaking in tongues, we read the :bible1: a lot in our spare time , always asking for guidance and protection :knight2:. … you may feel Ok with what you do and I think is very good to feel Jesus in your heart when you worship our Lord,… as I told you before we attend mass weekly, confess, and do the same thing other catholic people or catholics groups do.we love our Church the same way you do and we meet inside the church premises…God