Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[mantilla410]

Do you also agree that evangelization is only for the Magistarium?

This is what I think: it is waaaaaaaaaaay too easy for those who are filled with the Spirit yet poorly educated on the teaching of the Church to go around spreading misinformation. If I had a nickel for every time someone told me a fallacy about the Church that they had learned from a “very Catholic” person, I would be able to buy out half the K of C fish dinner tonight.

Now, lest you think I am setting myself up as an expert, I am not. When these fallacies are presented to me, I consult the Cathecism, CAF or the Vatican website for answers and backup.

If you want to evangelize, get educated. Stuffing tracts into bill payment envelopes is not educated. Now, can we get off this tangent and back on the topic?

 

[nfabienne]

This is what I think: it is waaaaaaaaaaay too easy for those who are filled with the Spirit yet poorly educated on the teaching of the Church to go around spreading misinformation. If I had a nickel for every time someone told me a fallacy about the Church that they had learned from a “very Catholic” person, I would be able to buy out half the K of C fish dinner tonight.

Now, lest you think I am setting myself up as an expert, I am not. When these fallacies are presented to me, I consult the Cathecism, CAF or the Vatican website for answers and backup.

If you want to evangelize, get educated. Stuffing tracts into bill payment envelopes is not educated. Now, can we get off this tangent and back on the topic?

I can agree, I do not think we should be spreading misinformation., I do the same if I think something is wrong but this is also where we should as Catholics who want to share with others we should know when to speak and when not to. Meaning if we don’t know admit it and search for the correct answer. Also we should read scripture and the catechism,
but I have to say there is probably much misinformation on this site as a whole also. Imagine a non believer or skeptic or someone on here trying to learn and they come upon this thread we all have our own opinions which is great but to walk away taking one persons word for it would be foolish. We must if we want to learn the truth Pray go to a priest go to the bible and the catechism. Or a nun or other trusted person of valid vocation. This does not mean a christian should say nothing and make no attempt to share their thoughts or feelings or what they have learned in their own journey. This is being a witness to Christ and their is nothing wrong with it. Also discernment is very important. You will as you come along in your journey learn to discern the closer you are to the Lord through prayer and scripture and the sacraments the easier it is to see what is false and what can be trusted again that is to a point always if unsure seek proper teaching of course. At first I had a hard time with this but it has become a little easier I was probably very naive at first, I might still be so I pray for discernment to have my eyes opened to the truth. Not one of us is perfect I think we can all agree to that but what we each have to share is meaningful and to be respected. We all have our own path and lessons and faults and strengths and we can all learn from each other. Whether it be wrong or right there is always something to be learned also if someone is wrong it is alright to kindly let them know I don’t feel how ever it is nice to call them out in an unkind way. I am not pointing fingers I say this to myself too. Proverbs 15;1 A gentle answer turn away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger
Luke 6;39-40
39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

God Bless

 

[vz71]

Now, can we get off this tangent and back on the topic?

I’m not so certain we are that far off topic.

If it is really the case that there is ill feeling toward the Charismatic movement because of evengelization efforts that go on in the movement, then the false premise that evengelization is only for the clergy needs to be addressed and put to rest.

It would appear that the same voices that decry ‘too protestant’ at the Charismatic movement also say the same about evangelazation…

I am feeling more and more like the unfavorable feelings towards this movement have less to do with the movement and more to do with changes brought about recently in the church.
If the Charismatic movement wasn’t there to feel bad about, it would be some other aspect of the church…Vernacular Mass, Modern Songs, Communion being offered either in the hand or on the tongue, take your pick. All have the ability to be abused, but none run against church doctrine.

I do not feel comfortable at all excluding a group of Catholics as ‘too protestant’ when they respect, follow, and love the church just as well as I.
There is an ‘exclusive club’ feel to it that I find distasteful. When did it become alright to discount the faithfulness of Catholics (real church going and doctrine abiding Catholics) on the basis that they don’t pray as you do? That they see miracles that you do not? That they have an enthusiasm for the church that you find ‘inappropriate’ (although certainly within guideleines set forth by the church)?

 

[mantilla410]

I’m not so certain we are that far off topic.

If it is really the case that there is ill feeling toward the Charismatic movement because of evengelization efforts that go on in the movement, then the false premise that evengelization is only for the clergy needs to be addressed and put to rest.

It would appear that the same voices that decry ‘too protestant’ at the Charismatic movement also say the same about evangelazation…

I am feeling more and more like the unfavorable feelings towards this movement have less to do with the movement and more to do with changes brought about recently in the church.
If the Charismatic movement wasn’t there to feel bad about, it would be some other aspect of the church…Vernacular Mass, Modern Songs, Communion being offered either in the hand or on the tongue, take your pick. All have the ability to be abused, but none run against church doctrine.

I do not feel comfortable at all excluding a group of Catholics as ‘too protestant’ when they respect, follow, and love the church just as well as I.
There is an ‘exclusive club’ feel to it that I find distasteful. When did it become alright to discount the faithfulness of Catholics (real church going and doctrine abiding Catholics) on the basis that they don’t pray as you do? That they see miracles that you do not? That they have an enthusiasm for the church that you find ‘inappropriate’ (although certainly within guideleines set forth by the church)?

How do you feel about being made uncomfortable because you do not see the “miracles” or do not show the “gifts” or are told in no uncertain terms that you are a lesser person because you do not participate in the happy-clappy? Oh yeah, and in front of a big group of people, too. Do you think I found that to be distasteful? No one knows what I have seen, no one knows what I have experienced, no one knows my times with the Holy Spirit because that was meant for me. If anyone has an exclusive club its the other side of this discussion. If I hear “Have you experienced the fullness of the Spirit?” one more time, I may go into v-fib right on the spot.

“And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.” Matthew 6:5

 

[nfabienne]

HI Mantilla,
While I can understand you have been hurt and offended by what some charismatics may said or done to you and I agree what you explain has happened is so wrong. But please don’t place a whole group of people into one criticism or stereo type I guess. I am no fuller than any other, I am no better than any other, we are each who we are and we each experience Jesus in our own special way, unique and beautiful to each of us. This perception of one being better than the next is more far reaching than just within this movement. We are all guilty at one time or another of thinking we may be better than the person next to us whether it be by faith or social class, looks etc. This problem exists through out the church which is unfortunate and very sad. We as Christians of any denomination should treat each other as Christ would have.We should do to others as we would want them to do to us I am very sorry you had a bad experience because if we met and you found out I attended a charismatic prayer group you may walk away and not give me a chance because you were hurt by one particular group, or offended by the way some of them behave. I never learned at my prayer meeting one was better than another. I learned in fact the opposite as I sat among all these people from different back rounds and circumstances. I learned no matter where we were on our walk, no matter if we could memorize a prayer, no matter who spoke up and who didn’t, we were all loved equally by Jesus and we all no matter what condition of life we were in we all are equally important to our Lord and only HE knows our hearts and intentions, and He is pleased with our way of prayer with Him how so ever we choose to come to Him. All that matters is Him and our love for Him we have free will to share Him as we feel comfortable.
I hope you will be able to forgive what these people did to you for how they made you feel. And maybe pray for them they were obviously far from the Lord and stuck in their own pride. I hope and pray you will be able to see not all charismatics are bad or mis- informed and mis-led in their faith. I don’t believe I pray as the hypocrites, but that is for God to judge I prayed only at a prayer meeting and it was a learning experience I would never go back and change. We are all individuals and I don’t think we can say one whole group is bad surely their will be good within also. We need to pray that God will cut from this group the branches that bear no fruit. God Bless you and I hope and pray you can find room in your heart for a charismatic friend in Christ:hug1:
Sorry posting long scripture I have trouble picking one verse for me it makes more sense as a whole chapter.:bible1::bible1

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his**faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
Love
9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.:**

 

[mantilla410]

In my earlier post, I accidently cut off the second verse .

“But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.” Matthew 6:6

What I was trying to say was that this my preference. Too often those out spreading the word without proper education are more like the first verse I posted.

Nfabienne, you are very sweet to be concerned about me, thank you! Friends are always welcome and I judge people on their individual merits, hence the rainbow of friends I have now.

As for my opinion of the movement, it has already been formed and not just because of some run-ins with the less- than-tactful. Its practices have invaded the liturgies here and are being accepted as normal. I have to constantly explain to my older daughter why we don’t raise up our arms, hold hands during the Our Father and clap during Mass. So, no, its not favorable.

 

[nfabienne]

I can only say that most of the time that I pray I do go by myself and pray but the bible also tells us that For where two or three are gathered in my name I will be there. Matthew 18:20 and when we are all in church together are we not praying? I believe what we are being told is do not pray as to boast do not pray for show. There is nothing wrong with praying together so long as we are praying to God for God not for show. Sure many charismatics may be doing it for show but I personally have not met any yet. The hypocrites that Jesus is teaching about liked to pretend they were faithful they were not doing it for Gods glory. Or like catholic who go to mass because they are supposed to not because they want to. When we share and pray together for our Lord there is nothing wrong with this, unless it is the kind of situation you were involved in where it clearly was for show.:blushing:

:blush:And I can’t agree(although I still respect your feelings and beliefs) you do not need to be educated to Love Jesus Christ and to share His Love. Read about the Saints most of them were uneducated but that is part of why God chose them. God taught them and in their hearts desire to serve and to know their Lord they probably read as much as they could and did their very best to live for Him. It doesn’t matter if anyone is uneducated it doesn’t matter how smart they are The most precious gift is the gift we should desire is love and God is love. When it comes to teaching of the church we should always seek the catechism and not take some ones word for it. As we should go to the bible for truth. God Bless

 

[The_Theotokos]

Is the entirety of evengelization a sermon?

Of course not. But in context to CorinneNJ’s statement, the type of evangelization in question is the sort left to clergy, not to the laity. The statement makes it seem as if proper evangelical responsibility is new to Catholics. Let me repost the quote I am referring to.

The movement is a return from the overitualized Middle Ages formality of Catholic religous practice to the simplicity of the very beginning of the church. It puts the reponsibility of evangelizing and the building up of the faith and fervor of the church on the everday layperson and requires that they make a further commitment to accept an inflowing of the Holy Spirit

Notice how CorinneNJ states that the Movement “puts the responsibility of evangelizing and the building up of the faith and fervor of the Church on the everyday layperson”. She isn’t saying it places a greater responsibility on the laity to witness to Christ (which, incidentally is the type of evangelization the Church expects of the laity unless they are properly trained [Catechism of the Catholic Church 905-906]). She is saying that it puts the responsibility of evangelizing on the laity…period. Now, perhaps I am reading too much into her post, but with the sort of demands many in this thread have put on me to be clear with my words, I don’t think it is inappropriate for me to hold everyone else to the same standard.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

teaching of the church? who is the one who teaches? the church itself or is there some authority or the church in general?

 

[The_Theotokos]

teaching of the church? who is the one who teaches? the church itself or is there some authority or the church in general?

There are very specific types of ‘teachings’. The Magisterium, however, hold the primacy of authority in this regard.

 

[The_Theotokos]

How can I not find this intellectually dishonest?

Intellectually dishonest? Or are you expecting me, once again, to clarify every single off-topic point I make, while others are free to be as vague as they choose?

It’s not as if I am trying to be vague. But I apologize if I assume that those in this thread are at least half as educated in the teachings of the Catholic Church as I am. After all, most of us are Catholics here and I don’t particularly think the fundamentals of my argument are outside of common available knowledge.

 

[The_Theotokos]

There are various types of evangelization. Some appropriate to only the clergy, some (fewer examples) appropriate to the laity as well. If we are going to take this off-topic discussion any further, fine. But let’s clarify which sort of evangelization we are speaking of here.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

There are very specific types of ‘teachings’. The Magisterium, however, hold the primacy of authority in this regard.

thank you cause i am trying to understand what catholic teaches so the church is a magisterium?

 

[The_Theotokos]

thank you cause i am trying to understand what catholic teaches so the church is a magisterium?

The Church is everyone, clergy and laity. But the Magisterium is the authority on what can and will(should) be taught.

Hope this helps as I know it is confusing.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

i know, that it’s conffusing so thanks for the info.

 

[mantilla410]

True, many saints were uneducated. But in this day and time with so many ways to spread information and disinformation, it is wise to be cautious before one speaks.

 

[The_Theotokos]

True, many saints were uneducated. But in this day and time with so many ways to spread information and disinformation, it is wise to be cautious before one speaks.

Not to mention that nearly all of those uneducated saints were, in fact, clergy.

 

[nfabienne]

True, many saints were uneducated. But in this day and time with so many ways to spread information and disinformation, it is wise to be cautious before one speaks.

I agree, I also think one would be wise to not take what one will say, and to go out there and read and learn. Attend catechism classes there are classes for adults as well. My argument is with more that one need not be educated to be close to the Lord. Proverbs 2:6 6 For the LORD gives wisdom,and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Proverbs 9:10
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Proverbs 14:6
The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none, but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.

Proverbs 18:15
The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out.

Proverbs 19:2
It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way.

Proverbs 22:12
The eyes of the LORD keep watch over knowledge, but he frustrates the words of the unfaithful.

Ecclesiastes 2:26
To the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

I know it is much more than this and I do agree that there are those who teach falsely, but as Christians we are all called to be saints not saints that need be canonized or recognized by anyone but our God. I really don’t disagree except you can not say one must be within the clergy to know the Lord and His will, what then would be the point of us? Are we not also the church? If someone is a false teacher leading any astray then they would be fools, not desiring to know the Lord. I was once foolish I had no desire to learn about my faith, when I came back to the Lord He brought me back to the church and with came came the desire to understand to know my faith. I am not at all close to knowing everything I am not a scholar I admit that so I will not try to explain doctrines and claim to know every prayer but my heart desires this and so the Lord teaches I have learned so much in one years time. I couldn’t even post all I have learned but that doesn’t matter what matters is my desire for learning my desire to know and share my savior.
I am sorry and I am not saying this to be a smart you know what but I can’t see Jesus being mad because we hold hands while praying this is a sign of unity which is greatly needed in our church. And do we really think He is looking at all our gestures while I know and value them as a deep sign of respect and tradition, I don’t think He is looking at my clapping hands but the Joy within that causes me to clap. Or when I first came back I had left as a teenager and so I honestly felt very lost at Mass trying to remember when to sit stand and kneel. Did the lord look at me ashamed or was He pleased I had come and that I was trying my best, but by the looks I may been receiving from those around me you would think I should have been excommunicated. Jesus is looking at our hearts and I truly can say I love all of you we are all Gods children I pray we can have unity, I pray we can open up and really listen to each other. I understand I agree we have those falsely teaching but they could be falsely teaching even if they are educated. There are two sides to everything. We have priests that abuse their roles I would never say they all do, we have Catholics who don’t attend mass who are pro choice who claim they are catholic, does this mean we are all bad Catholics no and you know what God loves them too. If I am wrong then I am wrong but in my heart in all my honesty this is how I feel. If we truly think that one must be clergy than why are we on here claiming to each be right, if that is true non of us should be speaking. I believe what the bible teaches I do my best to learn the catechism but most of all I do it for God. God Bless
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”[d]

 

[The_Theotokos]

I really don’t disagree except you can not say one must be within the clergy to know the Lord and His will, what then would be the point of us? Are we not also the church?

Hi nafabienne!

Going by mantilla’s posts, I don’t think it was suggested that one must be clergy to know God and His will. I believe mantilla was speaking about the teaching of doctrine, as well as the rules that govern the rites of the Church. The problem here is that people read the Catechism (which is a good thing), but they don’t necessarily understand everything that is written in it. As stated before, we have many different types of evangelization. Some evangelization is inappropriate for the laity. The laity is called to be a witness to Christ in word and deed. For example, a Catholic has a friend at work. This friend is agnostic. If the Catholic feels close enough to this friend to the point that the Catholic can be assured that some personal sharing would not cause offense, it is the obligation of the Catholic to express the wonderful spirituality she experiences in the life of the Church [when it is appropriate for her to do so]. If it is not too far out of line, perhaps an invitation could be extended to attend Liturgy. But more often then not, it is best to lead by example. As words can be misunderstood, things like genuine kindness, compassion, and love speak for themselves. That would be appropriate evangelization for a layperson.

Now, inappropriate evangelization would be shoving Bible verses down someone’s throat at a street corner, going door to door to teach why Catholics do the things they do, interpreting the Bible, interpreting cannon law, conducting Bible studies without Church training or approval, etc.

There are situations where one can overstep these boundaries, such as when a Catholic witnesses an attack against the faith, perhaps from an Atheist or something similar. At this point, if one is encountered to be in the presence of someone teaching something obviously and absolutely false, that Catholic has an obligation to encourage clarification or correction of the error.

If we truly think that one must be clergy than why are we on here claiming to each be right, if that is true non of us should be speaking.

Because what we are doing here is debating the external operations of the Catholic Church. We aren’t evangelizing. While, this is a public forum and we should be careful with what we say, it would be foolish for someone to come to this forum to be formally educated in the ways of the Catholic faith. Basically, this is discussion, not evangelization. And it should not be taken by anyone to be such.

 

[nfabienne]

Thank you Theokotos, I see what you mean. I wouldn’t be able to quote scripture nor would I try but I can see that people do I have heard people quote it and be way off. I only know a few that I can properly remember like I know proverbs 14;1The wise woman builds her house,
but with her own hands the foolish one tears hers down. And that is because when I read it for the first time it spoke right to my heart I was led to that early on in my coming Home and I knew I needed to make changes within my life for Him. I have to say though that I know certain scripture but often have to go look it up and then read it before I post it on here I am as cautious as I can be. I would not attempt this in person I know I am not qualified, but yes some do but how can we change this. I am not sure we can. People other than charismatics may do this. I completely see what you mean it’s the doctrines of our faith you are all concerned with. I understand this is where any human must be prudent in learning their own faith. This does not mean one can not witness as you also agree just that we shouldn’t try to teach doctrines I understand. No one ever attempted to teach doctrines to me except my mom who leads me to the catechism or my priest when I have questions she really does not know. I think my only objection with what is being said is that if someone is charismatic they don’t know doctrine and don’t follow it, as I said it goes both ways we don’t need to call out one particular group within our own body and place ALL of them in one box. Just as not all Catholics go to mass while this does spoil our faith to outsiders I should not call them out it is between them and God. I do not look down upon them and say shame, shame. We can only encourage them to attend just as we need to encourage charismatics to be properly taught to not only be charismatic but to be Catholics in order to do this they need to feel welcomed and they also need to be welcoming and we all, me included need to be open to proper criticism, proper meaning kind truthful and peaceful. As we are here 99% of the time I just mean snide comments are unkind from both sides. I will do my best to not hurt any ones feelings in regards to how they serve our Lord.
Theokotos, thank you for all your wisdom and thank you also Mantilla for sharing your experience I pray that those who did this come to there senses and live for the lord instead of there pride.
No this should not be a place to evangelize but it is a place that those seeking answers come and so we do need to be careful. We lead them to doctrines and the bible. But I think we are all doing our best for our Lord and our Church after all you are defending our doctrines I am defending what I know and that is that anyone can know and love God and God loves everyone! We each have a place and I am starting to see we are each where He needs and wants us we need only respect each other and where we are on our different journey’s that all lead to Him. God Bless friends!