F
Faith_Phoenix
Guest
HI! Any Charismatic churches in CHICAGO??? 
Thank you!
Thank you!
- Status
L
LRH1957
Guest
From what you described that you experienced I also consider some of it inappropriate just like when a person at Mass shows no respect when receiving communion. There is inappropriate behavior all over the place.
I guess from what you said, you will be writing numerous bishops and the pope (this one and the last couple) as to why they participated in open praise and worshipping using prayer tongues? Watch the video and see it for yourself.
I love the Mass, the sacraments, my faith, quiet prayer, joyful group prayer, I’ve seen many conversions, etc. In my 20 years of experience with CCR my experiences were 5% “in question” and 95% positive. By positive I mean the fruit of what was going on were many conversions, people “getting” the deep Catholic faith they were raised in and wanting to go deeper, people being motivated to serve in their parishes and use their “charisms”, protestants converting to the Catholic faith because they saw the love of Jesus in our Catholic prayer communities and the love of the Catholic Church and the depth of what it has to offer.
I’m sorry that all you have experienced is the empty part of the glass. There is water in the glass and it is the Holy Spirit.
Jesus loves you and so do I,
LRH
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
With all due respect, there is correct form in worship and then there is incorrect form. This mostly applies to the Liturgy. Using your augments, one could say the following:
Nine atheists and one Christian go to a bar. All ten of them get drunk. While they are drunk, the Christian converts the nine atheists to Christianity. When they sober up, the next week they enter the RCIA program and are later baptized. Because sitting around getting drunk lead to their conversion, should we conclude that getting drunk is conducive to our faith? God makes good out of all things. But that doesn’t mean all things that lead to good are essentially “good”.
As for the endorsement of many Bishops, all I can say is that I have known many Bishops who are not well suited to the position and do, in fact, make errors. As for the Pope, I think it would be wise to ask why he is the only Patriarch, out of the many, that directly encourages it.
L
LRH1957
Guest
Well you do have a sense of humor! Got a good chuckle out of your analogy. LOL
I wish you well. Let’s just intercede for each other.
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
LOL I’m glad you caught the humor in that. After reading over my post a second time, I was afraid it came across the wrong way.
Well, agreed! You are in my prayers. After all is said and done, at least we are both with the one true Church. That’s what matters in the end.
T
Tom
Guest
It was a transition which took three or four years, so it was gradual. The pastor, who has since retired, had an unusual obsession with Medgegoria.
At one St Blaise ceremony, blessing of the throats, the woman in front of me “fainted” when she was overcome by the Holy Spirit, when I went to catch her from hitting the floor, the ushers stopped me. They explained the Holy Spirit would protect her. I suppose it was my intercession and my lack of faith that caused the woman a knot on her head. The Spirit of God lives in me and I’ve never fainted from it, but hey it could happen.
I doubt “the Church” ever knew of his obsession, nor of the sightings at our Church. Not much speaking in tongues, but a lot of people claiming to see angels. Since his retirement, the Church has not had nearly as many sightings, not as flamboyant.
As you’ve said St Bernadette saw visions and no one else did, so did St Paul, when Jesus appeared to him. However, they weren’t choreographed. I’m not saying people didn’t see these things. There are many gifts yet one Spirit. Perhaps these visions are not my gift.
It seems to me speaking in tongues should help people learn. If you need an interpreter I doubt the authenticity.
J
jujubee7
Guest
Well, again, speaking of the fruits -
Our charismatic parish has about 800 families, I think. Currently there are 22 seminarians and 9 women actively discerning vocations. Good fruits…
Apparently the drunk Catholic on the barstool is doing a good job converting the atheists.
I want some of what he’s having…
Our charismatic parish has about 800 families, I think. Currently there are 22 seminarians and 9 women actively discerning vocations. Good fruits…
Apparently the drunk Catholic on the barstool is doing a good job converting the atheists.
I want some of what he’s having…
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
Numbers alone are not enough to be considered fruits. It is quality and not quantity that matter. Not that I am saying that your 22 seminaries and your 9 woman discerning a vocation are not of quality, but if the Charismatic Renewal Movement is what brought them to this realization, I would question the quality of the vocations on the basis of intent.Well, again, speaking of the fruits -
Our charismatic parish has about 800 families, I think. Currently there are 22 seminarians and 9 women actively discerning vocations. Good fruits…
Apparently the drunk Catholic on the barstool is doing a good job converting the athiests.
The Charisms of the Holy Spirit are always available, always accessible, always present. One need not dance around like a clown during Mass or shout out incomprehensible speech in order to access such true Charisms of the Spirit. One need not make a show of it, nor use such to establish who is the more favored by God. I stand by my opinion that Liturgy is not entertainment, a stage production, or a feel-good concert. It is the saving sacrifice of Christ Crucified. Funny how I have been filled with the Holy Spirit on numerous occasions and to this day, the Holy Spirit has never puppeteered me into acting like a fool.
M
Marnica01
Guest
You should definitely study your history more carefully. I recommend reading “Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries (Michael Glazier Books)” by Kilian McDonnell and George T. Montague (Paperback - Sep 1990). You can order it on Amazon.com.
McDonnell and Montague show that the Charismatic Renewal was a “re-discovery” of something that was thoroughly Catholic from the very beginning.
What happened with the Protestant Pentecostals was only a partial recovery which they mostly misunderstood and misinterpreted. The fullness of the Charismatic Renewal is to be found, as with most things Christian, in the heart of the Catholic Church.
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
My history is fine and I have read the materials you suggested. I disagree with the conclusions presented there inasmuch as I would confirm that the true Charisms of the Spirit are indeed truly Catholic. It is the Charismatic Renewal Movement that is not so much a renewal, but a reinterpretation of something that happened long before we were all born. What manifests itself today as Catholic Charismatic Renewal is just Protestant Pentecostalism wearing a brand new tuxedo. It looks good to people that are into that sort of thing, but it’s not something one should wear to the crucifixion.
J
jujubee7
Guest
Interesting link that my husband just brought to my attention:
catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/01/sign-from-lord.html
I don’t even want to address the part about the seminarians and sisters being lower quality because there are more of them. That is very judgmental, not to mention insulting to them. 50 years ago, pre-Vatican 2, if a parish had had many seminarians coming out of it, would one have suggested that they were of poor quality? Or would one have said, “Wow, that’s awesome! What are they doing there that’s different?” etc.
We are encouraged to pray for vocations, and singles and young adults are encouraged to listen and discern whether they may be being called. We also have a high rate of big to very big traditional Catholic families, which of course increases the likelihood of vocations to religious life. My family of 8 children (so far) is not unusual at our parish.
My 10 year old daughter has felt called to religious life since before we went to this parish - but now we are in an environment that supports the call. Our former parish would have supported her if she wanted to become a priest, I’m sure.
We go to a parish faithful to the Magisterium, totally and completely, with no liturgical abuses EVER, and we are a charismatic parish. No clowns dancing in the aisles. God is our entertainment.
catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/01/sign-from-lord.html
I don’t even want to address the part about the seminarians and sisters being lower quality because there are more of them. That is very judgmental, not to mention insulting to them. 50 years ago, pre-Vatican 2, if a parish had had many seminarians coming out of it, would one have suggested that they were of poor quality? Or would one have said, “Wow, that’s awesome! What are they doing there that’s different?” etc.
We are encouraged to pray for vocations, and singles and young adults are encouraged to listen and discern whether they may be being called. We also have a high rate of big to very big traditional Catholic families, which of course increases the likelihood of vocations to religious life. My family of 8 children (so far) is not unusual at our parish.
My 10 year old daughter has felt called to religious life since before we went to this parish - but now we are in an environment that supports the call. Our former parish would have supported her if she wanted to become a priest, I’m sure.
We go to a parish faithful to the Magisterium, totally and completely, with no liturgical abuses EVER, and we are a charismatic parish. No clowns dancing in the aisles. God is our entertainment.
S
Spiritsong
Guest
Most of us Catholics put a great emphasis on the Eucharist making claims like we have the Eucharist therefore we are better.
If we truly believe that Jesus, our Lord and God is present in the Eucharist we should be approaching him in awe and reverence whilst communion is distributed. Many of us lack this reverence, some receive communion but do not respond ‘Amen’ when the priest or acolyte says ‘Body of Christ’ while others come up and receive because they want to gulp the precious blood the way they consume alcohol,and again others are there because it’s the the norm thing for Catholics to do. Without going to confession? Without preparation before mass? Without reverence? Some of us Catholics need to be educated; and at Mass. Hit them while the iron is hot so they become aware of what they are doing or not doing. Priests should be doing this since they are our spiritual fathers are they not? Remove holiness and there is no sin! Maybe this is why people do not go to confession, because they have no sin?
Wake up church!
If we truly believe that Jesus, our Lord and God is present in the Eucharist we should be approaching him in awe and reverence whilst communion is distributed. Many of us lack this reverence, some receive communion but do not respond ‘Amen’ when the priest or acolyte says ‘Body of Christ’ while others come up and receive because they want to gulp the precious blood the way they consume alcohol,and again others are there because it’s the the norm thing for Catholics to do. Without going to confession? Without preparation before mass? Without reverence? Some of us Catholics need to be educated; and at Mass. Hit them while the iron is hot so they become aware of what they are doing or not doing. Priests should be doing this since they are our spiritual fathers are they not? Remove holiness and there is no sin! Maybe this is why people do not go to confession, because they have no sin?
Wake up church!
M
Marnica01
Guest
I think we may be talking about two different things. You seem to be taking issue with the ‘accidents’ of the Renewal which include a particularly enthusiastic style of worship and certain practices with regard to speaking in tongues, for example.
The substance of the Renewal goes much deeper and is concerned with letting the Holy Spirit empower you for the work of spreading the Kingdom.
As I have noted in another post, the Charismatic Renewal has indeed “derailed” in some parishes while flourishing in others. I have seen both. The “derailed” cases are sad and sometimes tragic. These cases seem to result from poor leaders who lack an appropriate scriptural and theological foundation, and who become obsessed with the accidents of the Renewal – many of which go back to the culture of the 1960’s in which the Renewal was born.
The flourishing cases (like St Mary Magdalen in San Antonio, Texas) have strong leaders, often one or more priests who are focused on evangelization and who build upon a solid scriptural and theological foundation.
.
A
aloneinjax
Guest
I am glad to see I am not the only one who feels very uncomfortable about the tongues prayers. I watched the video and it just doesn’t sit well with me. I feel as though I am watching a Pentecostal service. I don’t understand why the Pope condones this either. For me, it takes away from the Holiness of the Mass. No disrespect to those here who enjoy and participate in tongues but, for me, I am not comfortable praying to our Lord that way.
I read another post that said there is no basis in the bible for it and that only a very, very small percentage will ever speak in tongues.
L
LRH1957
Guest
Excellent points. The glass is half empty crowd only focuses on the empty like saying the ocean is half empty don’t you see it? All the info in the world will not likely get them to see there is actually water in it so why bother. Their minds are made up. They have free will also. God loves us all.
The Church, the Body of Christ, was given the charisms to empower us to carry out the mission… tell the world that God loves them and has a place for them, he showed his love by dying on the cross, a free gift of love to each of us … evangelize!
I can talk to a wall all day long. It will be there at the end of the day and it will not have moved. So I learned to stop talking to the wall.
Many blessings in your ministry and may it be completely full !
M
Marnica01
Guest
Actually, St Paul says that “speaking in tongues” is prayer to God – it is not speech directed at other people. Here is exactly what he says: “For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.” 1 Cor 14:2
Then St Paul says that he speaks in tongues more than anyone but only in private! Here again are his words: “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.” 1 Cor 14:18-19
So there you have it. St Paul prayed in tongues regularly, but only in private, because it is prayer to God, not speech to people. Absolutely scriptural and thoroughly Catholic.
L
LRH1957
Guest
Like I said before, it is NORMAL to be uncomfortable about it if you don’t understand it. I was the same way. I thought “not my cup of tea”.
As for the services that the Popes were participating in, there is a time for joy, a time for reverence, etc. My experience attending quite a few “charismatic” Masses is that people were actually participating, praising and worshipping our God and meant it. Not everyone, just like at a Mass where people can also praise and worship in a reverent, quiet way. I do both. Both are wonderful.
As far as the Pope condoning it, there is an entire organization sanctioned by the Catholic Church, to help promote it. The Popes condone it because of the fruits. Of course, for the glass half empty crowd, there is some bad fruit, just like in every other organization, effort, renewal movement, etc. Separate the chaff from the wheat, but the suppression of the gift of the Holy Spirit that he actually gave to us to empower the church to carry out its mission of spreading the Good News is the real shame.
Lots of references in the catechism.
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
jujubee7, please go back and read what I said. I made it a point to be clear that I wasn’t saying the people discerning in your parish were not of quality. Nor was I suggesting that it was because of the large numbers. My point was large numbers, alone, are not enough to be considered “fruit”. I’m not judging anyone, rather I am speaking in general. And in general, the Charismatic Renewal Movement is very suspect, in my opinion. I don’t trust it and I have had EXTENSIVE exposure to it.
I’m not sure what you mean by “God is your entertainment”, but my point was that the Mass is theologically designed to be solemn, not a party, as if often the case at these charismatic churches.
U
UJUNWA
Guest
I love the group and I think it is a good thing that happened to the church. It creates an opportunity to come together, read the bible and sing praises. Mass is sacrifice and is subtle and has a worship atmosphere but prayer meetings give you the opportunity to shout, sing dance just like you want it and you are not distracting any body who is in adoration before the blessed sacrament or disrupting the order of the mass. I think it just gives Catholics the opportunity to be free expressing their emotion and passion for the church in addition to mass and Eucharist
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
We just might very well be talking about two different things. I believe I mentioned in past posts in this thread that I accept the charisms of the Holy Spirit as being active in the Catholic Church today. I just do not accept the show people make of it, which I feel, goes against all sense of common humility. Being “slain in the spirit”, passing out, darting off into a “holy dash”, obtaining “words of knowledge”, etc. it’s all far too subjective and open to interpretation. It’s dubious at best and heretical at worse. I have no tolerance for any practice that can cause this much trouble. If the Charismatic Renewal Movement originated directly from the Holy Spirit, it wouldn’t be so divisive and I would like to think that all the Patriarchs of the Church would endorse it.
- Status