Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[The_Theotokos]

Of course, with the quotes around it that term could mean nearly anything.

However, the few I have witnessed still centered upon the Eucharist.

I put the quotes around it to express the idea that there can only be one Mass. It’s expression should only be based upon liturgical rite, not individual expression.

 

[vz71]

I put the quotes around it to express the idea that there can only be one Mass. It’s expression should only be based upon liturgical rite, not individual expression.

Just curious.
If we are to believe bad things of the Charismatic movement because of the term “Charismatic Mass”
Does this mean that “Midnight Mass” has a different meaning then a regular Mass as well?

Perhaps a “Funeral Mass” should be viewed as taking away from the Eucharist as well.

Is it the least bit possible here that we are looking at terms used and spoken in a different way then we believe they should be and interpreting it in the worst possible way?

 

[The_Theotokos]

Probably a discussion for a different thread, but I believe this is incorrect.

Perhaps it is for a different thread, but since the Church started in the east and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom predates the Latin liturgy both ordinary and extraordinary forms. I think it is fair to say we are a bit older and closer geographically.

 

[cazayoux]

Here is a specific question: Are you saying that singing a joyful song of praise at Mass with our hands and arms extended up to our heavenly Father as His children as a gesture of surrender is inappropriate?

Are there some that speak in tongues during a charismatic mass?

michel

 

[The_Theotokos]

Are there some that speak in tongues during a charismatic mass?

michel

I have seen it first hand. So, yes.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Agreed.
But be fair. There is another equally likely meaning here.

That there is, in fact, a blessing that is being missed out on.
Not a substitute, or more then the Eucharist, just a blessing that we are not taking advantage of.

I’m willing to be fair. But in order for me to accept this statement, I would have to assume that my experiences with the Holy Spirit are inferior to those who claim to possess charismatic gifts.

 

[vz71]

Yes, I am almost logical to a fault. Please forgive me for being such, as I sometimes get a bit too carried away.

I appreciate and am grateful for the logic.
I have had my fill for the moment of people that become way to impassioned in the debates on this page.

You ask a very fair question. Theologically, the Mass is the vehicle through which the faithful experience the sacrificial presence of Christ. In a sense, it is a spiritual, unbloody experience of Christ’s saving act on the cross. Repeated, in a sense.

But we better clarify that for the few protestant trollers out there.
It is not a repeat. We participate in the same sacrifice.

Now, with that in mind, would it be appropriate to behave any less than solemn at the foot of the “historical” cross?
So to answer your question, yes, I do believe it is inappropriate at the Mass.

Ah. But there is the rub.
Is raising your hands and praising out loud really ‘less then solemn’? Is it your perception of irreverence?

Are we so certain that the actions here are irreverent?

I remember being present at a Mass in which the hands raised was the norm. These people had the utmost respect and love for the Eucharist. In their own words, they simply could not contain a physical action brought about from this.

I have also seen people that fall on their knees when they go receive the Blessed Sacrament. I wonder if they look upon me just standing in reverence as being irreverent?

 

[vz71]

I would have to assume that my experiences with the Holy Spirit are inferior to those who claim to possess charismatic gifts.

I gave both of my boys toy tools for Christmas one year.

They were the same, but one boy took the tools and proceeded to build something.
The other put away the hammer because he didn’t like the color and proceeded to play with the rest.

Is the set of tools of the second boy inferior because he does not use the hammer?

 

[The_Theotokos]

I gave both of my boys toy tools for Christmas one year.

They were the same, but one boy took the tools and proceeded to build something.
The other put away the hammer because he didn’t like the color and proceeded to play with the rest.

Is the set of tools of the second boy inferior because he does not use the hammer?

To continue with your analogy, I am not putting the hammer away because I don’t like the color (it’s true, I don’t like the color), but that’s not why I am putting it away. I am putting it away because the other tools offer so much more usefulness, that I don’t need the hammer, nice color or not.

 

[LRH1957]

Yes, I am almost logical to a fault. Please forgive me for being such, as I sometimes get a bit too carried away.

You ask a very fair question. Theologically, the Mass is the vehicle through which the faithful experience the sacrificial presence of Christ. In a sense, it is a spiritual, unbloody experience of Christ’s saving act on the cross. Repeated, in a sense.

Now, with that in mind, would it be appropriate to behave any less than solemn at the foot of the “historical” cross?

So to answer your question, yes, I do believe it is inappropriate at the Mass.

Thanks for the honest, direct, honest (and logical LOL) answer! We just disagree and that’s OK. It doesn’t change the fact that we are both (and everyone else), unique, beautiful, wonderful creations of the same God that were drawn to Him from different paths.

I hope and pray we all meet in heaven where the err of our ways (all of us) won’t matter anymore and we will be fully in His loving presence and what leads to division here on earth will be completely gone!

Blessings to you!

 

[The_Theotokos]

I appreciate and am grateful for the logic.
I have had my fill for the moment of people that become way to impassioned in the debates on this page.

Agreed and thank you.

But we better clarify that for the few protestant trollers out there.
It is not a repeat. We participate in the same sacrifice.

Agreed again! But I trust you knew what I was saying, albeit, poorly.

Ah. But there is the rub.
Is raising your hands and praising out loud really ‘less then solemn’? Is it your perception of irreverence?

Are we so certain that the actions here are irreverent?

It is indeed less solemn. dictionary.reference.com/search?q=solemn.

I believe that even if the apostles truly understood the meaning of the crucifixion (which I am pretty sure didn’t happen until later), they still would not have been jumping for joy.

 

[LRH1957]

Are there some that speak in tongues during a charismatic mass?

michel

Yes, check the link to the video and you will see bishops, popes, priests, laity all participating that way. It’s beautiful, reverent, joyous, worshipful, etc.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Thanks for the honest, direct, honest (and logical LOL) answer! We just disagree and that’s OK. It doesn’t change the fact that we are both (and everyone else), unique, beautiful, wonderful creations of the same God that were drawn to Him from different paths.

I hope and pray we all meet in heaven where the err of our ways (all of us) won’t matter anymore and we will be fully in His loving presence and what leads to division here on earth will be completely gone!

Blessings to you!

Thank you for your kind words. Many blessings to you as well.

 

[LRH1957]

I believe that even if the apostles truly understood the meaning of the crucifixion (which I am pretty sure didn’t happen until later), they still would not have been jumping for joy.

OK Mr Logical (remember so am I), this is silly. Of course no one would be jumping for joy at the Crucifixion. LOL

God doesn’t need anything yet He doesn’t have everything. He chooses not to have everything so we can choose to love or not to love Him. What He doesn’t have is our choice to love Him and to show it and express it in all sorts of personal prayer and group prayer. It brings Him immense joy when His creatures (us) make the choice to express our love to Him.

So let’s all bring a smile to God, tell Him we love Him, we praise Him, we worship Him. Do it quietly at home, do it at Mass, do it at a prayer meeting, do it while driving a car. Ready, set, go!

He’s smiling already!

Blessings to all !

 

[The_Theotokos]

Of course no one would be jumping for joy at the Crucifixion. LOL

This is why I don’t feel the Mass is an appropriate time for contemporary charismatic behavior. Intrinsically, the Mass IS the crucifixion.

 

[The_Theotokos]

From the Original Catholic Encyclopedia about the gift of tongues:

QUOTE: “Corinthian Abuses (I Cor., xiv passim).—Medieval and modern writers wrongly take it for granted that the charism existed permanently at Corinth—as it did nowhere else—and that St. Paul, in commending the gift to the Corinthians, therewith gave his guaranty that the characteristics of Corinthian glossolaly were those of the gift itself. Traditional writers in overlooking this point place St. Luke at variance with St. Paul, and attribute to the charism properties so contrary as to make it inexplicable and prohibitively mysterious. There is enough in St. Paul to show us that the Corinthian peculiarities were ignoble accretions and abuses. They made of “tongues” a source of schism in the Church and of scandal without (xiv, 23). **The charism had deteriorated into a mixture of meaningless inarticulate gabble (9, 10) with an element of uncertain sounds (7, 8), which sometimes might be construed as little short of blasphemous **(xii, 3). **The Divine praises were recognized now and then, but the general effect was one of confusion and disedification for the very unbelievers for whom the normal gift was intended **(xiv, 22, 23, 26). **The Corinthians, misled not by insincerity but by simplicity and ignorance (20), were actuated by an undisciplined religious spirit (wvei ev), or rather by frenzied emotions and not by the understanding (vows) or the Spirit of God **(15). What today purports to be the “gift of tongues” at certain Protestant revivals is a fair reproduction of Corinthian glossolaly, and shows the need there was in the primitive Church of the Apostle’s counsel to do all things “decently, and according to order” (40).”

 

[vz71]

To continue with your analogy, I am not putting the hammer away because I don’t like the color (it’s true, I don’t like the color), but that’s not why I am putting it away. I am putting it away because the other tools offer so much more usefulness, that I don’t need the hammer, nice color or not.

I see.
So you maintain that it is the perogative of the receiver to decide how much and what aspects of a gift they wish to use.
Would I be correct in understanding this?

 

[vz71]

This is why I don’t feel the Mass is an appropriate time for contemporary charismatic behavior. Intrinsically, the Mass IS the crucifixion.

I thought the Mass was the last supper.
Am I mistaken?

 

[The_Theotokos]

I see.
So you maintain that it is the perogative of the receiver to decide how much and what aspects of a gift they wish to use.
Would I be correct in understanding this?

Well, first let’s clarify something. Going back to your analogy once more, perhaps it is necessary for me to believe in the existence of the hammer in the first place. I hold the position that this gibberish speaking in tongues is not a valid expression of the spirit and even if I am wrong, what I receive (by the Holy Spirit) in the sacraments renders these other gifts unviable, not by choice, but by essence.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I thought the Mass was the last supper.
Am I mistaken?

You are very mistaken.