Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[The_Theotokos]

Dear theotokos and all

Bruno is a very good catholic and just has a little difficulty with english. Please cut him some slack because of this. Try to read between the lines and you’ll see a very good man in love with God and his church.

God bless and peace to all

John,

I never said he wasn’t a good Catholic. I said his thinking was Protestant in reasoning. The level of his goodness is not in dispute here. The accuracy of the information he is posting is what is in question.

 

[vz71]

Once we stand before Jesus Christ, He surely won’t ask us, if we observed rites, procedures and methods. Instead we will rather be confronted with the question, whether we acknowledged Jesus Christ before others, or if we denied Him before others. Matthew 10:32-33

This acknowledgement you speak of comes (in large part) through observation of the rites, procedures, and methods instituted by the church he founded.

It is not an excuse to abandon dogma, but rather a reason to hold it.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

It is not an excuse to abandon dogma, but rather a reason to hold it.

Who on earth abandoned dogma???
I never did!
What are you talking about?

**

 

[The_Theotokos]

**

Who on earth abandoned dogma???
I never did!
What are you talking about?

**

Bruno,

Perhaps the language barrier is the problem here as John suggested. You don’t seem to be aware of how offensive your post came across. Considering that you are denying the implications that we read in your post, perhaps it would be helpful to all of us if you write again, in the most simplistic way possible, what it is you are talking about?

 

[BSHoop96]

I have read some of the posts on what the Holy See has said about this Charismatic movement. I don’t agree but that is how I feel.

I am wondering if what the Holy See refers to as the Charismatic movement (which they apparently approve of) and the worship style we see talked about here is one and the same?? Just as there are many parishes where the celebration of the NO is done in that infamous “spirit of Vatican II” mode which is not at all what the Church intended. As in many things, give people an inch and they will take a mile.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I am wondering if what the Holy See refers to as the Charismatic movement (which they apparently approve of) and the worship style we see talked about here is one and the same?? Just as there are many parishes where the celebration of the NO is done in that infamous “spirit of Vatican II” mode which is not at all what the Church intended. As in many things, give people an inch and they will take a mile.

I think you are right on target here. I have had a feeling for some time that the Charismatic adherents that engage in these Protestant behaviors at Mass are hiding behind Papal approval of the Movement, while simultaneously assuming that the Papacy approves of their behaviors too, because no one has stopped them.

The question is: why is no one stopping them? Why aren’t they being told by some Church authority that the Mass is a serious event, not some two-year old’s birthday party?

 

[BSHoop96]

I think you are right on target here. I have had a feeling for some time that the Charismatic adherents that engage in these Protestant behaviors at Mass are hiding behind Papal approval of the Movement, while simultaneously assuming that the Papacy approves of their behaviors too, because no one has stopped them.

The question is: why is no one stopping them? Why aren’t they being told by some Church authority that the Mass is a serious event, not some two-year old’s birthday party?

I know what you mean…I often wonder why the Church doesn’t step into a lot of places and put her foot down…but then I remember that the Church has always moved slowly and who am I to question. But I do find myself frustrated.

 

[cazayoux]

I know what you mean…I often wonder why the Church doesn’t step into a lot of places and put her foot down…but then I remember that the Church has always moved slowly and who am I to question. But I do find myself frustrated.

I’m still waiting on my bishop to crack down on these parishes in North Dallas that don’t have kneelers.

michel

 

[BSHoop96]

I’m still waiting on my bishop to crack down on these parishes in North Dallas that don’t have kneelers.

michel

ouch! That can hardly be called Catholic can it?

 

[aloneinjax]

I am wondering if what the Holy See refers to as the Charismatic movement (which they apparently approve of) and the worship style we see talked about here is one and the same?? Just as there are many parishes where the celebration of the NO is done in that infamous “spirit of Vatican II” mode which is not at all what the Church intended. As in many things, give people an inch and they will take a mile.

Excellent point! They may not know just how this Charismatic way or praying is. I wonder, would we see the Pope speaking in tongues or crying, moaning, and/or fainting? I, somehow, think not. I agree; when something is ‘okayed’, there are those who take it to the limit when that is not what was meant. I really feel in the minority here, as you and Theotokos said also, with how they seem to be so adamant that we are NOT as good as they are. Those are the impressions I am getting from what I am reading here.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Dear theotokos and all

Bruno is a very good catholic and just has a little difficulty with english. Please cut him some slack because of this. Try to read between the lines and you’ll see a very good man in love with God and his church.

God bless and peace to all

thanks russell, i was reading through the thread and found the comment about shulz and he is far from thinking like a protestant. as for this thread of charismatic renewal and the speaking of tongues, i don’t understand.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**
The Theotokos:

Your entire post was offensive, expressed arrogance… no one is in a position to assume that someone is not close to God or has knowledge that “God Is” (as you put) just because this same person has a deep respect for and supports correct practice in Liturgical worship…. offensive your post came across… helpful to all of us if you write again… what it is you are talking about?

It wouldn’t be of any use to „explain what I’m talking about“, when prejudice sees arrogance and offence, and some read word by word instead in love and receptivity. Reading a post of a Christian foreigner of same believe, it would be natural to cut him some slack, instead calling him offensive and arrogant.

I posted here 689 articles – never any problem – until I came across “Theotokos” here.
I speak almost daily to atheists in Christian language – which to them is a foreign language, but still they wouldn’t attest me arrogance and offence. I daily speak and write to Christians about Church, faith and believe, none of them ever had the idea, I’d – as asserted here; would “abandon dogma”.

Unbelievable really; you alleged I’d “assume that someone is not close to God”. How on earth could I?!

However I insist, that there are many holy persons, who “have knowledge that “God Is”. Why that? Well:
When a good and absolutely reliable friend tell you something; you don’t just presume that this is true, but you then KNOW that this is true. How much more than a good and absolutely reliable friend is Jesus Christ who revealed God for us.

I never said, I’d not have “deep respect for correct practice in Liturgical worship”!
But I said; other things are more important than correct practice in Liturgical worship. Faith and believe in God is!

As to the new and old Liturgical worship, some speak, as if our good Pope Johannes XXXIII. (and V2) was the Antichrist. He was a good and holy Pope as JP2 or Benedict XVI.

All Johannes XXXIII. did, was opening the church to both - people who understand Latin (which is the minority) as well as those who understand their native language only and newcomers. People then where delighted and more found Church “their” Church.

Pope Benedict XVI. allowed both. What’s wrong with that?

But as I’m quite obviously deliberately misunderstood; openly accused of missing the entire point of Catholicism in presumptuous shallow understanding of Catholic spirituality, not needing Church, Sacraments, community, and thinking Mass a simple “formality”, plus thinking the Grace of God is provided by faith alone, contradicting the very structure of the Catholic Church confusing religion with spirituality… (see post #257) I won’t go on reading/writing here.

So, – have a good time and think or write as you please about ugly Bruno Schulz
**

 

[vz71]

I never said, I’d not have “deep respect for correct practice in Liturgical worship”!
**But I said; other things are more important than correct practice in Liturgical worship. **

Perhaps you should clarify further.
For many, what is written there sounds more like a valid Mass is optional. And also as though the church, rites, and practices are optional.

 

[aloneinjax]

Dear theotokos and all

Bruno is a very good catholic and just has a little difficulty with english. Please cut him some slack because of this. Try to read between the lines and you’ll see a very good man in love with God and his church.

God bless and peace to all

I have to admit I don’t understand him either. Could you clarify for us? I have cognitive problems due to my Multiple Sclerosis so I have to strive harder to understand some things. For me, I don’t get what he is saying at all.

 

[The_Theotokos]

It wouldn’t be of any use to „explain what I’m talking about“,

It would be of some use to you. You seem to want to be heard and understood, yet you resist clarifying your position, which seems problematic to some of us here.

when prejudice sees arrogance and offence, and some read word by word instead in love and receptivity.

Prejudice against who, you? Because I disagree with words that you choose not to clarify? It’s not my job to figure out what you are saying. Rather, it is your job to make sure people are understanding what it is you want them to know by reading your posts.

Reading a post of a Christian foreigner of same believe, it would be natural to cut him some slack, instead calling him offensive and arrogant.

Did I call you offensive and arrogant or did I say that your post was offensive and expressed arrogance?

I posted here 689 articles – never any problem – until I came across “Theotokos” here.

So, by problem, you mean someone who doesn’t agree with you, correct?

Unbelievable really; you alleged I’d “assume that someone is not close to God”. How on earth could I?!

That’s how I interpreted your post and since you refuse to clarify, I’ll have to stick with my interpretation over your apparent intention, which escapes me.

I never said, I’d not have “deep respect for correct practice in Liturgical worship”!
But I said; other things are more important than correct practice in Liturgical worship. Faith and believe in God is!

Vz71 responded to this statement better than I could have.

As to the new and old Liturgical worship, some speak, as if our good Pope Johannes XXXIII. (and V2) was the Antichrist. He was a good and holy Pope as JP2 or Benedict XVI.

All Johannes XXXIII. did, was opening the church to both - people who understand Latin (which is the minority) as well as those who understand their native language only and newcomers. People then where delighted and more found Church “their” Church.

Pope Benedict XVI. allowed both. What’s wrong with that?

Vatican II did a lot more to the Mass than simply change the language to the vernacular. It changed the entire structure. Some people, myself included, see this as the door that was opened that causes the Charismatic Renewal Movement controversy discussed in this thread.

But as I’m quite obviously deliberately misunderstood; openly accused of missing the entire point of Catholicism in presumptuous shallow understanding of Catholic spirituality, not needing Church, Sacraments, community, and thinking Mass a simple “formality”, plus thinking the Grace of God is provided by faith alone, contradicting the very structure of the Catholic Church confusing religion with spirituality… (see post #257) I won’t go on reading/writing here.

So, – have a good time and think or write as you please about ugly Bruno Schulz

No one is deliberately misunderstanding you. You are, however, not working to clarify your previous statements and, furthermore, you haven’t been accused of anything. Please stop making this something personal against you.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

you guys must be speaking in tongues cause i don’t understand neither one of you on the position you take on the charismatic movement.

 

[The_Theotokos]

you guys must be speaking in tongues cause i don’t understand neither one of you on the position you take on the charismatic movement.

Well, we’ve been rather complete on this subject and we’ve covered a lot of ground since the first post. What specifically about our position do you not understand? Do you not find Charismatic Services to be specifically Protestant in form and function?

 

[The_Theotokos]

thanks russell, i was reading through the thread and found the comment about shulz and he is far from thinking like a protestant.

Okay, fair enough, after all, I don’t know the man as well as you seem to. Perhaps he just writes like a Protestant? LOL

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Well, we’ve been rather complete on this subject and we’ve covered a lot of ground since the first post. What specifically about our position do you not understand? Do you not find Charismatic Services to be specifically Protestant in form and function?

no

 

[The_Theotokos]

no

Well, I can assure you that what I (and others) have experienced at these Charismatic Services cannot, in the slightest, be related to the aura of what Catholicism has expressed historically.

Not in a million years.