Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[Jerry_Marino]

charismatic is characterized by charisma and charisma definition is the ability to inspire enthusiasm, interest, or affection in others by means of personal charm or influence; personal magnetism.

president obama has this charisma by definition, who else might have this charisma?

the serpent in the garden of eden was very charismatic that he got eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. we are told to test the spirits in the 1st letter of john 4:1.

if one looks at the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost when the believers were gifted in speaking in other tongues that the jews hear them speaking in their own tongue which leads me to believe that this means language.

i am not a linguistic major or anything of the sort but tongue from the latin root means language.

then you find in 1 corinthians 14 that paul writes that it would be better if one could prophesy, that is better than speaking in tongues unless an interpreter is present so that the body of Christ can be build up and who is the body? the believers.

so if one speaks in tongues i believe it should be done to build up the church by encouraging and bringing others to the saving knowledge of the truth which is the salvation through Jesus Christ.

God Bless

 

[The_Theotokos]

charismatic is characterized by charisma and charisma definition is the ability to inspire enthusiasm, interest, or affection in others by means of personal charm or influence; personal magnetism.

president obama has this charisma by definition, who else might have this charisma?

the serpent in the garden of eden was very charismatic that he got eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. we are told to test the spirits in the 1st letter of john 4:1.

if one looks at the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost when the believers were gifted in speaking in other tongues that the jews hear them speaking in their own tongue which leads me to believe that this means language.

i am not a linguistic major or anything of the sort but tongue from the latin root means language.

then you find in 1 corinthians 14 that paul writes that it would be better if one could prophesy, that is better than speaking in tongues unless an interpreter is present so that the body of Christ can be build up and who is the body? the believers.

so if one speaks in tongues i believe it should be done to build up the church by encouraging and bringing others to the saving knowledge of the truth which is the salvation through Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Have you read all of the posts in this thread? I don’t think you’ll find that anyone here has a problem with the Scriptural descriptions.

Our problem (or at least my problem) is with the Charismatic Movement (specifically), the behaviors they exhibit during the Mass, the lack of credibility in their claims (which goes against everything the Church stands for), and the idea that they have been blessed with some sort of special Grace that everyone else hasn’t received.

Private revelation, personal liturgical preferences and modification, and emotion-centric worship methods are all Protestant inventions designed to psychologically compensate for their lack of authenticity.

 

[vz71]

if one looks at the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost when the believers were gifted in speaking in other tongues that the jews hear them speaking in their own tongue which leads me to believe that this means language.

Which leads me to a big issue I have with the entirety of this practice.

The onlookers heard their own native tongues.

So if the Charismatics are to lay claim that this is the basis for their tongues…Why don’t I hear my own native tongue?

Any charismatic care to answer?

 

[cazayoux]

Originally Posted by **Jerry Marino **
if one looks at the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost when the believers were gifted in speaking in other tongues that the jews hear them speaking in their own tongue which leads me to believe that this means language.

Which leads me to a big issue I have with the entirety of this practice.

The onlookers heard their own native tongues.

So if the Charismatics are to lay claim that this is the basis for their tongues…Why don’t I hear my own native tongue?

Any charismatic care to answer?

Actually … that incident in scripture should be better described as the gift of ears. There is no indication that the speaker was speaking anything other than his own language. The gift was for those listening, not the one speaking.

michel

 

[vz71]

Actually … that incident in scripture should be better described as the gift of ears. There is no indication that the speaker was speaking anything other than his own language. The gift was for those listening, not the one speaking.

michel

No, this does not answer the question.
All it does is push off the issue upon another party.

And it increases distrust of the entire movement.

 

[tobinatorstark]

I am too leary of it. It seems to be a cross between Pentecostalism and Catholicism. I will not take that road

 

[Jerry_Marino]

I am too leary of it. It seems to be a cross between Pentecostalism and Catholicism. I will not take that road

good for you! if it doesn’t seem right don’t chance it. how does one get filled with the Spirit?

READ YOUR BIBLE, my friends. that is the best way to know what God expects from each one of us, go to church and participate in worshipping and praising God your savior, hang out with other believers and the most important, prayer life.

God Bless

 

[danonwaveland]

Which leads me to a big issue I have with the entirety of this practice.

The onlookers heard their own native tongues.

So if the Charismatics are to lay claim that this is the basis for their tongues…Why don’t I hear my own native tongue?

Any charismatic care to answer?

There are two reasons: some expressions of tongues are meant to be individual prayer between the person and God – so, basically, ain’t none of your or my business; secondly, some expressions of tongues are meant for interpretation and, usually, just as one is given the gift of tongues, another is given the gift of interpretation of tongues. That second person’s responsibility is to let the first person and – depending upon the particular circumstance – others within the prayer group know what that first person said. Then, the group is to prayerfully discern the message given. It is usually one of encouragement, reminding us of God’s love, or of direction, such as reminding us to be vigilant in our prayers and in service/obedience to the Church and service to others. Hope that helps.

God bless,
Dan

 

[vz71]

good for you! if it doesn’t seem right don’t chance it. how does one get filled with the Spirit?

Based on what I have experienced personally as well as dialogues with some Catholic Charismatics, my overall impression was positive.

Based on what I have read on this thread, my overall impression is negative.

I wonder why that is?

 

[vz71]

There are two reasons: some expressions of tongues are meant to be individual prayer between the person and God – so, basically, ain’t none of your or my business; secondly, some expressions of tongues are meant for interpretation and, usually, just as one is given the gift of tongues, another is given the gift of interpretation of tongues. That second person’s responsibility is to let the first person and – depending upon the particular circumstance – others within the prayer group know what that first person said. Then, the group is to prayerfully discern the message given. It is usually one of encouragement, reminding us of God’s love, or of direction, such as reminding us to be vigilant in our prayers and in service/obedience to the Church and to others. Hope that helps.

God bless,
Dan

Then you concede that the tongues used by the Charismatic movement are not the same thing as is spoken of in that passage of scripture.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Then you concede that the tongues used by the Charismatic movement are not the same thing as is spoken of in that passage of scripture.

This has been my primary concern of all.

How can anybody possibly know that what we see happening in the Charismatic Renewal Movement is what was happening in the days of St. Paul?

For all they know, with all of these abuses, it’s a scam of Satan to destroy true and correct worship. I’m not saying that it is, but we certainly cannot say that it isn’t!

 

[danonwaveland]

Then you concede that the tongues used by the Charismatic movement are not the same thing as is spoken of in that passage of scripture.

Uh, no. I don’t see where you get that. Even if your point was valid, you’re taking a very protestant view that, if it ain’t exactly like that in Scripture, it ain’t of God. (Like the Rosary, Assumption, etc.?)

God bless,
Dan

 

[vz71]

Uh, no. I don’t see where you get that.

I get that from the Charismatics that use Acts 2:1-12 as a basis for the tongues.

Even if your point was valid, you’re taking a very protestant view that, if it ain’t exactly like that in Scripture, it ain’t of God. (Like the Rosary, Assumption, etc.?)

Not at all. First, a valid point is a valid point. Fact is fact.
But besides that, I really wouldn’t care if it were directly held within scripture. As long as it could be derived from it.
But it seems to me that charismatics always resort to scripture as their explanation.
So…if it isn’t in scripture…

 

[vz71]

This has been my primary concern of all.
How can anybody possibly know that what we see happening in the Charismatic Renewal Movement is what was happening in the days of St. Paul?

Days of St. Paul being Acts 2 in this case. Just to clarify what I am speaking of.

For all they know, with all of these abuses, it’s a scam of Satan to destroy true and correct worship. I’m not saying that it is, but we certainly cannot say that it isn’t!

In the charismatic Mass I attended, I doubt this would be the case. If it were a disruption caused by evil, why stop for the Profession of Faith, General Intercessions, Eucharistic prayer, and Communion?

 

[The_Theotokos]

In the charismatic Mass I attended, I doubt this would be the case. If it were a disruption caused by evil, why stop for the Profession of Faith, General Intercessions, Eucharistic prayer, and Communion?

Consider that Satan has had to change his game plan since the times of Adam, Eve, Job, and even during the times of Christ, the Middle Ages, and beyond. For example, during the Protestant Reformation, what better strategy could he have used than to convince hundreds of thousands of people that the Church had lost its way (which was rather true in some instances) and declare that a new system be put in its place?

Clearly, the Devil is adapting to our changing world faster than we are. It would be pointless for him to show up, today, as some tempting voice in the desert or some snake under a tree (metaphorically speaking). It would be far better to “disguise himself as an angel of light” and convince the Christian population that a renewal of Pentecost is at hand, one that far exceeds the need for proper discernment, liturgical practice, and historical tradition. Yet, offers the illusion of good fruits. If one wants to destroy the Mass (which is the single greatest threat to Satan’s mission), one would not be antagonistic or overtly noticeable. Rather, one would only be successful via tactics of infiltration, utilizing methods that can be referenced by scripture. One would appeal to the emotions of the masses, acquire large numbers of supporters, and slowly change everything.

What can be more powerful (and destructive) than paving the road to private revelation? The Church takes such care in relation to discerning Marian apparitions, the canonization of saints, the confirmation of miracles, and the performing of exorcisms. Yet, it just whole-heartedly supports, participates in, and endorses this Charismatic Movement, which maintains the ultimate goal of bringing their form of worship to the Masses, a form of worship based entirely upon personal experience.

** It makes no sense whatsoever!**

 

[vz71]

Clearly, the Devil is adapting to our changing world faster than we are. It would be pointless for him to show up, today, as some tempting voice in the desert or some snake under a tree (metaphorically speaking). It would be far better to “disguise himself as an angel of light” and convince the Christian population that a renewal of Pentecost is at hand, one that far exceeds the need for proper discernment, liturgical practice, and historical tradition.

Is it your position that the Charismatic movement is evil then?

 

[The_Theotokos]

Is it your position that the Charismatic movement is evil then?

Not entirely. My position more closely resembles that of severe caution. The Church hasn’t given the same care to investigating the causes and effects of the Movement that it has to other supernatural claims. And by neglecting to do so, leaves the possibility wide open for evil to manifest. I am highly suspicious of the Charismatic Renewal Movement on the basis of its history, its goals, its tactics, its methods, and its consequences. But most importantly, I am suspicious of it, because we, as Catholics do not need it. And why would God be giving us something we do not need?

 

[vz71]

And why would God be giving us something we do not need?

Technically speaking, there are any number of things that we do not need that God has given us.

I wouldn’t be so certain why is a good reason to doubt its authenticity.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Technically speaking, there are any number of things that we do not need that God has given us.

I wouldn’t be so certain why is a good reason to doubt its authenticity.

What things without purpose, of supernatural origin, that change the face of liturgy, has God given us?

 

[danonwaveland]

I get that from the Charismatics that use Acts 2:1-12 as a basis for the tongues.

Not at all. First, a valid point is a valid point. Fact is fact.
But besides that, I really wouldn’t care if it were directly held within scripture. As long as it could be derived from it.
But it seems to me that charismatics always resort to scripture as their explanation.
So…if it isn’t in scripture…

I’m sorry, vz, are you asking why you can’t understand those who speak in tongues, as many in the crowd did at Pentecost?

If that is the question, the answer is that you haven’t rec’d the gift of interpretation of tongues for whatever instance you’ve heard tongues spoken. Just as the gift of tongues is given by the Lord to whom He wishes when He wishes, the gift of interpretation is given by the Lord to whom and when He wishes, although certainly not forced on anyone. On Pentecost, a lot of people rec’d the gift of interpretation of tongues, although some apparently couldn’t understand, ascribing what they heard to them having had too much new wine.

I think it’s obvious that the gift of tongues is cited and/or can be derived from scripture. And I don’t think charismatics “always resort to scripture as their explanation”.

Be that as it may, it’s obvious we are not going to agree and we don’t seem to be understanding each other’s points fully. There’s no point in me coming back to this thread. I apologize for all the charismatic people who have offended you – and the others here – by seeming to talk down to you or imply that your faith is inferior. I don’t think they meant it that way and if they did, they were wrong. It’s usually a case of people trying to share something wonderful they’ve come upon and being too aggressive in their salesmanship.

I can’t deny that the renewal has brought me into a deeper relationship with Jesus, a much, much greater appreciation of the Eucharist and the mass, a deeper understanding of Scripture and a love for Mary and the Rosary. The renewal is not the only means of reaching those goals, but they worked for me. Whatever is of help to you, great! I wish you well.

God bless,
Dan