Catholic Charismatic Renwal: Good or Bad?

[m134e5]

Before VII Catholics were forbidden to free interpret scriptures. Although this rule has been relaxed, we are still not to free interpret without authentic guidance.

I never heard that- I have heard otherwise- do you know of a Church document that can back that up?

I believe the relaxing of the ban was to encourage people to read the Bible and get personal beneficial guidance, not to slam or promote a movement of the Church. This is not what it is about.

I don’t believe a ban was relaxed, as I don’t believe there ever was a ban- on Catholic bibles at least. The index of forbidden books was done away with, as far as I know, but that’s because the heirarchy realized that if they put a book on it, people would buy it in a heartbeat.

If JPII didn’t have a problem with a praise or prayer tongue, I certainly do not.

It’s a matter of style- and it is a style many do not like, and don’t want forced down their throats. I admire John Paul II very much- but I couldn’t ever stand to watch the Papal Masses- I’d read a transcript of the homily later- at least when I was interested in Catholicism at all. Just because Pope John Paul II liked the style doesn’t mean it’s good for everyone.

Again, if anyone is not comfortable with something, they certainly should find a different legitimate option.

Many charismatics and modernists seem to want to throw out the traditions of the Church- we are rightfully defensive when it comes to preserving the things that inspired people for centuries.

Also I am speaking of Authentic CCR, with solid legitimate leadership, and under the authority of the local ordinary.

I understand.

Most of you who have complaints are either speaking of inauthentic weak Catholic or non-Catholic groups.

Yes- and those groups have often destroyed charismatic-type things for us. I left the Christianity behind 9 years ago- before then- thanks to fundamentalism. Many converts loved their fundamentalist faith (some were even ministers) and still have fond memories of it- I don’t. I haven’t looked back- and I don’t want to see Catholicism become the same in outward appearance as the churches that turned me off of Christianity. When I hear charismatic music, I don’t feel close to God- I think “ok, when’s someone going to knock me down and try to heal me” or “when’s someone going to scream for no reason” (I hate loud sudden noises- drums, balloons, people yelling for no reason). I don’t like the idea of seeing the priest lift the chalice during the offertory while the drummer has everyone’s attention. Those things may never happen at some (most?) charismatic Masses, but I’ve been conditioned to expect it- so I do not like them just the same.

 

[Turtledove]

m134e5:

I never heard that- I have heard otherwise- do you know of a Church document that can back that up?

This is from the Baltimore Catechism–There are not many pre-vII documents available on line.
**
****XIV. How can we know the true meaning of the doctrines contained in the Bible and in Divine Tradition? ****
We can know the true meaning of the doctrines contained in the Bible and in Divine Tradition from the Catholic Church, which has been authorized by Jesus Christ to explain His doctrines, and which is preserved from error in its teachings by the special assistance of the Holy Ghost.

**

I don’t believe a ban was relaxed, as I don’t believe there ever was a ban- on Catholic bibles at least. The index of forbidden books was done away with, as far as I know, but that’s because the heirarchy realized that if they put a book on it, people would buy it in a heartbeat.

Not a ban on the Bible–a ban on free interpretation

It’s a matter of style- and it is a style many do not like, and don’t want forced down their throats. I admire John Paul II very much- but I couldn’t ever stand to watch the Papal Masses- I’d read a transcript of the homily later- at least when I was interested in Catholicism at all. Just because Pope John Paul II liked the style doesn’t mean it’s good for everyone.

Again–it is an option, which should be avoided, if it is upsetting

Many charismatics and modernists seem to want to throw out the traditions of the Church- we are rightfully defensive when it comes to preserving the things that inspired people for centuries.

I would not be involved with anyone who acted in this manner.

 

[robertaf]

m134e5:

I never heard that- I have heard otherwise- do you know of a Church document that can back that up?
…

Many charismatics and modernists seem to want to throw out the traditions of the Church- we are rightfully defensive when it comes to preserving the things that inspired people for centuries.

…

…and I don’t want to see Catholicism become the same in outward appearance as the churches that turned me off of Christianity. When I hear charismatic music, I don’t feel close to God- I think “ok, when’s someone going to knock me down and try to heal me” or “when’s someone going to scream for no reason” (I hate loud sudden noises- drums, balloons, people yelling for no reason). I don’t like the idea of seeing the priest lift the chalice during the offertory while the drummer has everyone’s attention. Those things may never happen at some (most?) charismatic Masses, but I’ve been conditioned to expect it- so I do not like them just the same.

I became a Catholic in 1955 and I can tell you that Catholics were, in fact, discouraged to read the Bible. Being a convert from the Protestant faith, and learning scripture at my grandmothers knee, I had a deep love for the Bible. Over the years before V II, I had discussions with many priests who let me know in no uncertain terms that I was not to study the Bible without Catholic Church interpretation.
Whether there are documents to back this up, other the one posted from the BC, the reality is that is what Catholics were taught back then, along with being taught to OBEY without question.

I have no idea what experience you have had with the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church but what you describe is entirely strange to me and as I said before, I have been Charismatic for many years in many places and have never seen what you are fearing. Someone knock you down and try to heal you, indeed!!! …“when’s someone going to scream for no reason” What is this about and the other things you mentioned??? Very strange stuff and not at all what happens at the vast majority of CCR events.

 

[Turtledove]

Hi Roberta,

Nice to meet you.

Yes, unfortunately all Charismatics seem to take the rap for the agressive and mistaken ideas of a few.

I have found only a very few Catholic forums where Charismatics are tolerated, and even fewer where they are welcome.

This says something very sad about the more traditional Catholics.

 

[Turtledove]

Back to approval–
Do you think that something which the Church approves of under Canon Law must be pretty important?

iccrs.org/statutes.htm
THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR THE LAITY
D E C R E E S
The recognition of ICCRS as a body for the promotion of the CCR, with a juridical personality, according to Can. 116,

approving their Statutes, in their original form, deposited in the Archives of this Dicastery.

EDUARDO CARD. PIRONIO-President

 

[robertaf]

Turtledove:

Hi Roberta,

Nice to meet you.

Yes, unfortunately all Charismatics seem to take the rap for the agressive and mistaken ideas of a few.

I have found only a very few Catholic forums where Charismatics are tolerated, and even fewer where they are welcome.

This says something very sad about the more traditional Catholics.

Greetings!
Great meeting you too!

I love your posts. Keep up the great work.
I am now in several forums and just received an email this morning inviting me to another that welcomes the CCR. Private me and I will give you the details.

I am here, not because everyone welcomes me, although there are many who have been very wonderful, but if I can help just one person understand what we Charismaniacs are all about, it is worth a little abuse.

I have made one special friend who use to be very opposed to us but through love and prayer has become very dear to me. He knows who he is. God is blessing him and I continue to pray and fast for his intentions.

Have a wonderful day and keep up the good posts.

 

[dumspirospero]

What I find distasteful and offensive, is that on the one hand, we have the Tridentine (Pre-Conciliar Latin) Mass…a Mass steeped in hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition, etc…on the other hand, we have the fairly new style of Charismatic Masses (circa late 60’s-early 70’s) with things taking place during the entire Mass that is not called for in the Girm…Yet there is an indult required for the former, and the latter is accepted with wide open arms, no indult is required, and you are a social philistine for not speaking in favor of it. I don’t think that is fair whatsoever…There is an indult required for one mass which is steeped with tradition, reverance, and respect…yet the thing of the future seems to be to have no indult requirement for masses with rock bands, drum roles during the consecration, etc…Does anyone else get sick on their stomach thinking about this?

 

[threej_lc]

dumspirospero:

What I find distasteful and offensive, is that on the one hand, we have the Tridentine (Pre-Conciliar Latin) Mass…a Mass steeped in hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition, etc…on the other hand, we have the fairly new style of Charismatic Masses (circa late 60’s-early 70’s) with things taking place during the entire Mass that is not called for in the Girm…Yet there is an indult required for the former, and the latter is accepted with wide open arms, no indult is required, and you are a social philistine for not speaking in favor of it. I don’t think that is fair whatsoever…There is an indult required for one mass which is steeped with tradition, reverance, and respect…yet the thing of the future seems to be to have no indult requirement for masses with rock bands, drum roles during the consecration, etc…Does anyone else get sick on their stomach thinking about this?

As a charismatic… I tend to agree with you. But lets get some of the facts straight:

1. Although the tridentine rite mass requires indult, the norvus ordo can freely be celebrated in Latin, whith virtually as much symbolism and reverence as the tridentine. Priests just choose not to do so.
2. The tridentine mass, I believe, didn’t come to require an indult because it is deficient. The indult seems to me to be a requirement brought about by those who insist that norvus ordo is invalid. The Vatican is forced to ensure the faithful recognize its decisions and don’t defect to the tridentine because its “better.” Yes, it is many people’s personal preference, and justly so, but is not intrinsically “better.” The Vatican has been forced to push its hand on that.
3. Charismatic masses are not necessarily in a “Youth mass” style, although most of them are.
4. Does the liturgical music of a youth mass contradict that which was called for at Vatican 2? Probably. I don’t know the issue well enough to argue it. But if the only argument you have about a charismatic mass is that it doesn’t use the organ enough, I think that’s a pretty week argument.
5. I also get disgusted by liturgical abuses done in the name of “Charismatic masses.” Most true charismatics that I know do too. But if a priest routinely performs liturgical abuse, you can’t suddenly blame it on the “Charismatic mass.”
6. I’ve never seen anythign specific to a charismatic mass that contradicted the girm. Can you give specific instances, and their GIRM references?
7. Drumrolls during the consecration? That is abhorrid, in my opinion. My full agreements there: I think any charismatic group which openly sponsors that needs a talking to.

Josh

 

[dumspirospero]

I agree with pretty much everything you have said…I would just like to add that if being in the CCR brings people closer to God and renews their faith, then I am happy for them…it just isn’t my thing. What I hate to see though is movements like this flourishing without any limitations…and at the same time an indult is required to celebrate the Mass that myself and other traditional Catholics love so much…and JPII was specific in telling Bishops to be generous when granting Indults, however it is just another directive from Rome that American Bishops are ignoring…Indults are very scarce in this country when compared to the number of parishes…some people drive 1-2 hours to be able to find an Indult because they rightfully refuse to go to a schismatic church. This is ridiculous…there is no reason for so much limitation being placed on the traditional mass…The USCCB is indifferent to the sentiments of the laity and the directives of The Pope…there seems there are no checks and balances…Yet what adds insult to injury is the fact that they cant seem to eradicate the TLM fast enough, while at the same time ignoring and even promoting blatant liturgical abuses and other modernists inventions that have no place in our Liturgy or Church…that last statement is not directed at the CCR in any way…I was speaking in general terms.

threej_lc:

As a charismatic… I tend to agree with you. But lets get some of the facts straight:

1. Although the tridentine rite mass requires indult, the norvus ordo can freely be celebrated in Latin, whith virtually as much symbolism and reverence as the tridentine. Priests just choose not to do so.
2. The tridentine mass, I believe, didn’t come to require an indult because it is deficient. The indult seems to me to be a requirement brought about by those who insist that norvus ordo is invalid. The Vatican is forced to ensure the faithful recognize its decisions and don’t defect to the tridentine because its “better.” Yes, it is many people’s personal preference, and justly so, but is not intrinsically “better.” The Vatican has been forced to push its hand on that.
3. Charismatic masses are not necessarily in a “Youth mass” style, although most of them are.
4. Does the liturgical music of a youth mass contradict that which was called for at Vatican 2? Probably. I don’t know the issue well enough to argue it. But if the only argument you have about a charismatic mass is that it doesn’t use the organ enough, I think that’s a pretty week argument.
5. I also get disgusted by liturgical abuses done in the name of “Charismatic masses.” Most true charismatics that I know do too. But if a priest routinely performs liturgical abuse, you can’t suddenly blame it on the “Charismatic mass.”
6. I’ve never seen anythign specific to a charismatic mass that contradicted the girm. Can you give specific instances, and their GIRM references?
7. Drumrolls during the consecration? That is abhorrid, in my opinion. My full agreements there: I think any charismatic group which openly sponsors that needs a talking to.

Josh

 

[Turtledove]

dumspirospero:

What I hate to see though is movements like this flourishing without any limitations…

Unfortunately many people confuse their likes & dislikes with abusive & non-abusive situations. There are many valid options which traditionalists call abuses.

and at the same time an indult is required to celebrate the Mass that myself and other traditional Catholics love so much

1–The Charismatic Mass which you so dislike is celebrated in accordance with the approved GIRM
2—If there were as as many people as you seem to think who wanted the indult Mass, there would be more of them celebrated. Also many Priests agree that the Mass should be celebrated as instructed, and they do not wish to celebrate an indult Mass.

…and JPII was specific in telling Bishops to be generous when granting Indults, however it is just another directive from Rome that American Bishops are ignoring…

Many of the people wanting the indult will not follow the instructions when attending an NO Mass. The Bishops do not wish to enforce this strong willed behavior.

Indults are very scarce in this country when compared to the number of parishes…some people drive 1-2 hours to be able to find an Indult because they rightfully refuse to go to a schismatic church. This is ridiculous…there is no reason for so much limitation being placed on the traditional mass…The USCCB is indifferent to the sentiments of the laity and the directives of The Pope…

I really think you are wrong here. I’m sure if you found a Priest willing ot celebrate the indult Mass, the indult would be granted.

there seems there are no checks and balances…Yet what adds insult to injury is the fact that they cant seem to eradicate the TLM fast enough, while at the same time ignoring and even promoting blatant liturgical abuses and other modernists inventions that have no place in our Liturgy or Church…that last statement is not directed at the CCR in any way…I was speaking in general terms

If this is not directed against CCR it is Off topic in this thread, as well as inaccurate.

 

[robertaf]

dumspirospero:

…I would just like to add that if being in the CCR brings people closer to God and renews their faith, then I am happy for them…it just isn’t my thing. What I hate to see though is movements like this flourishing without any limitations…and at the same time an indult is required to celebrate the Mass that myself and other traditional Catholics love so much…

This part of your post is profound, in my opinion, dumspirospero.
Although you think the CCR is good for those folks who it brings closer to God, it is not for you. So you would rather see it NOT FLOURISH because your favorite style of Mass, requires and indult.

Is this really what you are trying to tell us? When you read it back, is this what is bugging you about the CCR?

Think about this. Most of us Charismatics have had to work really hard to get a Prayer Group going in a Parish. I mean really hard. Most of the time, even if we can get permission, we can rarely get a Pastor to participate. If we want a Charismatic Mass, we usually have to “import” one from out of town. We have to continually attempt to teach or maybe I should say unteach folks who have no real idea what the Renewal is about. In fact, a high percentage of Catholics have believed stuff other people have told them and have no real knowledge of their own but they put all sorts of obstacles in our way along with spouting ridicule at us. We have a hard time getting announcements made, get no budget (often), have to provide our own music ministry and song books. You have no idea what is involved.

Maybe if folks like you were willing to work as hard as many Charismatics have, just to Praise and Worship our Lord, you would have the Masses you like best.

I guarantee, we would not say bad things about you or ridicule you. In fact, many of us would put you in prayer and fast and offer our Communions for your intentions. That is what we do best, you know.

 

[Oren]

egg4christ. thanks for the personal attack there. i really appreciate it.

 

[FdeS2]

Let me tell everyone what my experience at the Southern California CCR was. OK, at first I walked in and there was a lot of music and a bunch of excited teens. At this time there was no Mass or anything of that sort. For the next three days I heard talks and saw presentations that were both inspiring and uplifting. At one point we had adoration, but at that time all of the loud music stopped and there was just soft acoustic guitar and (soft) orchestral chimes, with maybe a little quiet piano. I was able to pray and concentrate on the fact that (all of) Jesus was in our midst in the Consecrated Host. After adoration was over there was more music and presentations. We had one Mass, and it was at the end of the 3-day convention. It was a legitimate Mass, much like those that I attend every Sunday and on Holy Days. Many of the people participating were even spreaking in tongues! It excited me and showed me another side of my faith. My aunt, who is wary of such charismatic occurances, was excited to see young people so in love with God when she walked into a charismatic Mass at the end of her son’s retreat. Sorry for the long post, but I’m trying to show even the most traditional people that CCR is good and not abusive in most cases.

 

[Turtledove]

Thank you –

but I’m trying to show even the most traditional people that CCR is good and not abusive in most cases

That is exactly it.

 

[robertaf]

FdeS2:

Let me tell everyone what my experience at the Southern California CCR was. OK, at first I walked in and there was a lot of music and a bunch of excited teens. At this time there was no Mass or anything of that sort. For the next three days I heard talks and saw presentations that were both inspiring and uplifting. At one point we had adoration, but at that time all of the loud music stopped and there was just soft acoustic guitar and (soft) orchestral chimes, with maybe a little quiet piano. I was able to pray and concentrate on the fact that (all of) Jesus was in our midst in the Consecrated Host. After adoration was over there was more music and presentations. We had one Mass, and it was at the end of the 3-day convention. It was a legitimate Mass, much like those that I attend every Sunday and on Holy Days. Many of the people participating were even spreaking in tongues! It excited me and showed me another side of my faith. My aunt, who is wary of such charismatic occurances, was excited to see young people so in love with God when she walked into a charismatic Mass at the end of her son’s retreat. Sorry for the long post, but I’m trying to show even the most traditional people that CCR is good and not abusive in most cases.

Hi
Were you at the teen and young peoples part of SCRC Convention or at the part for adults?
Are you going back this Labor Day weekend. I am, we fly down Thursday night and back home to Northern California on Sunday. I have been going to the Conferences since they first began, almost.

Very good post and absolutely true.

 

[threej_lc]

I’m kind of surprised we haven’t had more anti-charismatics in here. They’re happy to post on other threads, but when we have one specifically so they can voice their opinions, they don’t show up?

I’m not referring to those of the opinion “Good for those in the renewal, but its not for me.” You’ve been wonderful here! I just expected some sharper opposition.

Josh

 

[robertaf]

threej_lc:

I’m kind of surprised we haven’t had more anti-charismatics in here. They’re happy to post on other threads, but when we have one specifically so they can voice their opinions, they don’t show up?

I’m not referring to those of the opinion “Good for those in the renewal, but its not for me.” You’ve been wonderful here! I just expected some sharper opposition.

Josh

You noticed !!!
I sure hope the moderators noticed, too.
It has been my opinion (and I have expressed it several times) that a small handful of folks deliberately start problems in our Charismatic threads to get them locked down.
This may be fairly good evidence of that.

 

[Lalia_Mackay]

You noticed !!!
I sure hope the moderators noticed, too.
It has been my opinion (and I have expressed it several times) that a small handful of folks deliberately start problems in our Charismatic threads to get them locked down.
This may be fairly good evidence of that.

I have noticed.:clapping:

 

[DBT]

Ok, I know next to nothing about all of this but I did have a question for anyone who’d like to answer

Are life teen masses considered charismatic? Is life teen affliliated in anyway with CCR?

Thank you!
Dave.

BTW, sorry if this is a bit off topic.

 

[threej_lc]

DBT:

Ok, I know next to nothing about all of this but I did have a question for anyone who’d like to answer

Are life teen masses considered charismatic? Is life teen affliliated in anyway with CCR?

That’s actually a very good question!

As far as I know, there is no DIRECT correlation between life teen and CCR. However, I know many CCR members consider the lifeteen’s style of worship, a combination of praise music, worship music, and contemplative eucharistic adoration, to be their ideal worship style, and very strongly support the group.

Similarly, some CCR prayer meetings largely resemeble a life teen worship service.

Josh