Catholic Charities USA seeks minimum-wage hike

[chicago]

Personally, I’d like to see the stats on some of these “family of 4” assertions. Why in the world would a person with a family of four be working a minimum wage job? That is for starting out. If you didn’t go to college and your first job is minimum wage, I understand. But, you shouldn’t be married with two kids at that point!

There is a fallacy that the people at minimum wage “have not received a raise in ‘x’ years.” People don’t stay at minimum wage for long. The mobility between income levels in this country is dynamic. It is a very small percentage of the poor that stay poor (under the poverty level) their whole lives.

Perhaps the problem lies in the reality that the minimum wage, being possibly too low, keeps the level that many a person CAN work at and earn too low, also. So, no, they aren’t earning the minimum, but they are only making $8.50 busting their butt as it’s the best they can get in an overly competitive marketplace.

 

[chicago]

If his work doesn’t add enough value to the business, they can’t afford to pay him more – it’s that simple. And that’s why I challenged you to start your own business – that you might have an epiphany on the way to the Bankruptcy Court.

I’m smart enough to save my dollars instead of investing them in a venture which is doomed to fail. Owning a business, afterall, is not a right, it is a responsibility

You realize also that a family is an** obligation**, not a right? Before one starts a family, one should be sure one is able to support that family.

I disagree entirely. While a family is certainly an obligation, it is also a sort of natural right. No one ought to be made to feel unable or unworthy to have children because of their poor economic situation.

 

[rlg94086]

Ah…so you are in favor of all wages going up because of the minimum wage. That means all our costs will go up too. Great plan.

If someone is unhappy with their lot in life, they improve themselves and/or look for a better employer (one that pays a better wage) or start their own business.

You need to read Self Made in America , so you can see some examples of people who made it starting from nothing. The best story I remember is that of a Vietnamese refugee who literally swam to shore with no money whatsoever. He worked (and slept) in a bakery and eventually bought the bakery. He is now a millionaire.

I have no college degree, but worked my way up to a very good wage in sales. I would start my own business, but I’m not willing to take the risk - luckily, the founder of my company was willing!

Perhaps the problem lies in the reality that the minimum wage, being possibly too low, keeps the level that many a person CAN work at and earn too low, also. So, no, they aren’t earning the minimum, but they are only making $8.50 busting their butt as it’s the best they can get in an overly competitive marketplace.

 

[chicago]

To hell with those who are prevented from starting at the beginning because we can afford to ship the fruits formerly of their labor in from China now.

There, of course, the problem lies with the lack of buying virtue in supporting moral business practices. It is unfortunate that we seem to need a “lower class” to support our desired “better” lifestyles. It takes virtue (and dare I say Catholic rather than Calvinistic vision) all around in order to make things work well. Given, we live in a fallen world where such vision, virtues, and practice are not generally pursued; which is where the real “more harm than good” happens to come in.

I’m not unrealistic about the difficulties of living in an imperfect world, I’m only calling out for a higher good to be pursued as best as possible. And THERE is where the real risk and return is on more than just a monetary level!

 

[chicago]

Ah…so you are in favor of all wages going up because of the minimum wage. That means all our costs will go up too. Great plan.

'deed I do!

If someone is unhappy with their lot in life, they improve themselves and/or look for a better employer (one that pays a better wage) or start their own business.

But what if they can neither find nor afford either of those options? And why ought they be “unhappy with their lot in life” if they can live simply and with all their needs met?

You need to read Self Made in America , so you can see some examples of people who made it starting from nothing. The best story I remember is that of a Vietnamese refugee who literally swam to shore with no money whatsoever. He worked (and slept) in a bakery and eventually bought the bakery. He is now a millionaire.

He obviously was able to “get by” on whatever wages he made. I could tell you stories of Polish cleaning ladies who did likewise.

I have no college degree, but worked my way up to a very good wage in sales. I would start my own business, but I’m not willing to take the risk - luckily, the founder of my company was willing!

Ah, you got the opportunity for an initial job, staying on and “working your way up” (why ought you have had to work your way “up”?), and what you consider to be a “good wage”. Some don’t have those chances.

 

[Catholig]

But what if they can neither find nor afford either of those options? And why ought they be “unhappy with their lot in life” if they can live simply and with all their needs met?

Yes, communism is such a great thing!

 

[chicago]

Yes, communism is such a great thing!

Asking employers to pay a just (or family) wage and people to live simply in satisfaction of their state in life amounts to communism now?

 

[Catholig]

Asking employers to pay a just (or family) wage and people to live simply in satisfaction of their state in life amounts to communism now?

No just the way you suggested it That everyones “basic needs” must be met.

Catholig

 

[Kendy]

No just the way you suggested it That everyones “basic needs” must be met.

Catholig

That’s not communism. Communism requires state control of the means of production.

 

[chicago]

No just the way you suggested it That everyones “basic needs” must be met.

Catholig

Well, there’s a certain foundational degree which is essential.

Let me put it this way, by analogy. I believe that everyone ought to be able to attend the symphony (or a baseball game if you prefer). Now everyone can’t sit in the box seats (or skyboxes). Some will have to be on the main floor (or grandstand). Others are in the upper balcony (or upper deck), A fair number out in the bleachers (or 2nd gallery). I do not suggest that all must be able to afford a subscription series in the box seats (or season tickets right behind homeplate). But if you can’t find in your income the minimum cost of admission to be in the hall (or the stadium) at all, then there is a problem at play.

 

[Durendin]

In the UK we have a minimum wage of £5.50 and it has helped the poor and helped the economy, (which is booming in comparison to the US).

Looking for a selfish reason to keep a minimum wage? Consider the tax situation. The more people earn, the more they get taxed as a whole and the less people need welfare. Don’t complain about high taxes, slum areas and minimum wages in the same sentence!

 

[jimi22]

Most of What Chicago is saying is socialist theory. The nanny state much like Europe. Everyone in the U.S. has the same basic opportunity to succeed; no not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth but if the are willing to work hard and take those low paying jobs,then they have the means to pay for their education. It’s not about having the “Right” to have children it’s about setting your priorities and making the right choices. People always want to blame someone else for their problems, the problem is that they should blame themselves for their choices. It is not the Governments job to tell me what to eat or where to sleep. It is insane to be willing to accept higher prices for an increase in the wage, it is self defeating and illogical. You gain more money over here but you pay more over there so now it’s a wash and nothing is gained.

 

[rlg94086]

But what if they can neither find nor afford either of those options? And why ought they be “unhappy with their lot in life” if they can live simply and with all their needs met?

Anyone can find a way to afford the needed improvements and find a better job. There are a lot of ways to do it. If they can live simply and have all their needs met, then there is no reason for their employer to be forced by the government to give them a raise.

chicago:

He obviously was able to “get by” on whatever wages he made. I could tell you stories of Polish cleaning ladies who did likewise.

He worked, ate and lived in the bakery in order to save up the money to buy it, and now he is a millionaire. People do what they need to do to succeed (whatever their definition of success is). It’s called sacrifice. What is your point?

chicago:

Ah, you got the opportunity for an initial job, staying on and “working your way up” (why ought you have had to work your way “up”?), and what you consider to be a “good wage”. Some don’t have those chances.

What are you talking about? Who doesn’t have a chance at a good job and the ability to work their way up?

What opportunity are you talking about? My opportunity to work as a busboy (my first job), or my opportunity to work as a teller at a bank (when I quit restaurants/hotels), or my opportunity in credit/collections (when I quit the bank), or my opportunity in sales (when I applied for it at the company I was doing credit/collections)? Can you explain to me what stellar qualifications I had that someone else couldn’t have those same opportunities?

As you can surmise from my brief resume above, my first job was minimum wage. I never worked for minimum wage again. Why? Because the other “entry level” jobs (teller, credit/collections) paid more than minimum wage.

In the last few years, I’ve been through a layoff, lost my house, moved three times for work, tried to change careers and failed, and finally worked my way back to my 1999 income. It’s called adversity. I worked through it. People do it every day. If someone is staying in the same minimum wage job, or working serial minimum wage jobs, there is something wrong with them.

 

[chicago]

Anyone can find a way to afford the needed improvements and find a better job. There are a lot of ways to do it.

Why should they have to find what you consider to be a “better job” if this job is right for them?

If they can live simply and have all their needs met, then there is no reason for their employer to be forced by the government to give them a raise.

I might well agree to that. But we certainly aren’t at that level with the current minimum wage, now are we?

He worked, ate and lived in the bakery in order to save up the money to buy it, and now he is a millionaire. People do what they need to do to succeed (whatever their definition of success is). It’s called sacrifice. What is your point?

So how much was he getting paid, then? How much added income in food and rent and utilities was he receiving by sleeping in house? It’s certainly not the norm these days, afterall.

What are you talking about? Who doesn’t have a chance at a good job and the ability to work their way up?

You’re seriously kidding, right?

What opportunity are you talking about? My opportunity to work as a busboy (my first job), or my opportunity to work as a teller at a bank (when I quit restaurants/hotels), or my opportunity in credit/collections (when I quit the bank), or my opportunity in sales (when I applied for it at the company I was doing credit/collections)? Can you explain to me what stellar qualifications I had that someone else couldn’t have those same opportunities?

Some people get stuck. Others have to compete with a lot more applicants. You were hired. Consider yourself lucky.

As you can surmise from my brief resume above, my first job was minimum wage. I never worked for minimum wage again. Why? Because the other “entry level” jobs (teller, credit/collections) paid more than minimum wage.

Why should you have had to quit one job to “move up” to a sustainable level?

In the last few years, I’ve been through a layoff, lost my house, moved three times for work, tried to change careers and failed, and finally worked my way back to my 1999 income. It’s called adversity. I worked through it. People do it every day.

Sometimes making all too little.

If someone is staying in the same minimum wage job, or working serial minimum wage jobs, there is something wrong with them.

Or with the economy.

 

[chicago]

Most of What Chicago is saying is socialist theory.

No, it’s simply Catholic principles. I’m not talking about all kinds of government programs. Just wage laws which require that as private citizens and corporations we have a minimum standard in keeping with the public good. That’s entirely appropriate and legitimate. But, then, I suppose some people would have cried that child work laws and all of the reforms needed during the industrial revolution (which, ironically, are only being repeated as abuses in the countries which now make our imported goods for cheap) were inappropriate government interventions, also.

Now, if we could perhaps have a little more government funding for the symphony, admittedly, I won’t object.

Everyone in the U.S. has the same basic opportunity to succeed…

In theory, not necessarily in reality.

… but if the are willing to work hard and take those low paying jobs,then they have the means to pay for their education.

Again, what this really amounts to is a sort of Calvinistic argument with rewards for the chosen according to the “Protestant Work Ethic”. (With “education” being ultimately no more than code for “job training” - as our trade school “universities” typically are.) It fails to respect the intrinsic dignity of every worker in all jobs. What if, for instance, it is a man’s call to mop the floor or pack grocery bags? He has no right to a family wage because this sort of work is deemed by some to be less important or economically advantageous? Rubbish!

It’s not about having the “Right” to have children it’s about setting your priorities and making the right choices. People always want to blame someone else for their problems, the problem is that they should blame themselves for their choices.

It would seem that you want to blame and penalize some for what you consider to be their bad choices.

It is not the Governments job to tell me what to eat or where to sleep. It is insane to be willing to accept higher prices for an increase in the wage, it is self defeating and illogical. You gain more money over here but you pay more over there so now it’s a wash and nothing is gained.

Water finds it’s own level.

 

[Nurse_Joy]

It fails to respect the intrinsic dignity of every worker in all jobs. What if, for instance, it is a man’s call to mop the floor or pack grocery bags? He has no right to a family wage because this sort of work is deemed by some to be less important or economically advantageous? Rubbish!

That’s insane!

Imagine all the people who want a career working 2 hours a day testing the solitaire game for Microsoft. By your logic we have to respect the intrinsic dignity of this career path.

You don’t get a family wage for that. No one will pay for that.

These arguments leave out the fact that economics determines the allocation of scarce resources using prices. Putting a fake high price on a resource results in no one paying for that resource.

Who pays their babysitter $7.50 an hour? What if I want my career to be babysitting one kid at a time? How long do you think my customer list will be?

 

[estesbob]

Well, how much is the “someone else” making? Can they afford to pay the workers more if they cut back on their own “profit taking”? Or are they just scraping by, themselves.

I recognize that we don’t exactly live in an ideal world, but ideally a good business plan ought to account for just wages to it’s workers as a prerequisite for sustainability.

I’d hardly call expounding upon Catholic teaching on a Catholic message board “rhapsodizing”, though.

Can you show me in the Cathecism where it calls for a minimum wage? Can you show me where it defines for me a “just wage” Who should decide the proper wage for a job. The govt, you or the employer?

Why dont you determine what you consider to be a just wage and find several people making less than it and supplement their income to bring them up to what you think is fair?

Its so easy to be noble with other peoples money.

 

[estesbob]

I’m sure that there are plenty of energetic, risk-taking, and hard working men and women who can’t afford to start their own business, just as there are lazy business people who let others do the work and only reap the rewards. What a silly and simplistic argument!

This shows such a profound ignorance of business realities it nearly takes one breath away. I am a CPA who has been in busness for 26 years. i have dealt with thousands of businesses over those years on a daily basis. I have NEVER run into a businessman who didnt work and reaped the reaped the rewards.

You can afford to start a business. I started mine with less than 10,000. Of course that would entail you taking a risk-better to live off somene elses business and pontificate on how they should run it.

 

[estesbob]

In the UK we have a minimum wage of £5.50 and it has helped the poor and helped the economy, (which is booming in comparison to the US).

Looking for a selfish reason to keep a minimum wage? Consider the tax situation. The more people earn, the more they get taxed as a whole and the less people need welfare. Don’t complain about high taxes, slum areas and minimum wages in the same sentence!

Since nearly 50% of Americans pay no income tax. Raisnig the minimum wage has a neagtive effect on taxes. The employer pays less income tax(but higher social security and medicare tax) while the employee pays no additional tax.

 

[SnorterLuster]

Chicago,
Do you ever get frustrated with the phone menus and scream “Why can’t I talk to a human!”? Did it ever dawn on you that even at minimum wage, businesses learned that the cost savings of voice mail far outweigh your frustration. So, at least in this case, the government setting wages, even minimums, has done nothing for employees except put receptionists out of work.

Are you old enough to remember when businesses used to deliver the merchandise regardless of size or price? Ever wonder what happened to that service? It started disappearing when the minimum wage went up to $1.00.

I am in a small manufacturing company that my family has had for over 50 years. When I went to work in the business in 1965 we hired minimum wage workers that would learn a trade as apprentices. It was a trade that was transferrable to many businesses across the U.S. When the minimum wage got too high, we quit hiring minimum wage workers. They runined more parts than their wages could cover. To remain in business, we started automating. In my small case, all the minimum wage has done is deprive many young men over the last 25 years from learning a trade that would make them a living wage for the rest of their life. Today, we put out as much work, with higher quality than we did 40 years ago. We can do that with two shop workers instead of the 18 we had in 1965. And no, we didn’t get our hat full because we had to pay fewer people. All we did was survive. Today, we compete against companies who send all their fabrication to Mexico or China. Many of my competitors did not survive though.