Catholic Charities USA seeks minimum-wage hike

[geezerbob]

While I’m not sure that is always going to happen (some people might, gasp, save!), I’m not convinced that this idea is a good thing. It puts our emphasis on materialism and work and achievement as the highest goods. A very Calvinistic ideology.

Paul tells us to work hard so we will have more to share with those in need. Earning money can be good or bad, depending on our attitudes and what we do with it.

 

[Kendy]

This actually means nothing to me. There are actually some economists who do not believe that tax cuts are good for the economy.

To me this is as simple as kindergarden education. If you let people keep more of the money that they earn they will have more disposable income. More disposable income is good for the economy. Why? Duh??? If there is more money floating around then there are more things being purchased and therefore helping the overall economy.

Economists are themselves self-serving. They take a stance one way or the other simply because they have prefer a political party.

"Well, Duh? " This is just laughable. The only problem here is that some are going to walk away treating like fact what experts know is a very debatable. I know this from good authority since I have had the chance to go school with the university that has the most lobel prize winners in econ in the world. Now, if you prefer libertarian economists, that’s your pergogative, but don’t act like the issue is settled because it’s not.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

But that wasn’t the point being made by Vern or Bob…the point is that having better education will allow you to get a job that pays better. All jobs have a certain value. Garbage collecting has more value than working at Burger King (although both pay more than minimum wage).

The more education you have, the more options you have. You could still prefer working as a garbage collector, but there are other jobs (some which pay less than garbage collecting) that require more education.

If we educated everybody equally well, someone would still have to collect garbage, bath old people (which pays about $8 a/hour), etc.

 

[rlg94086]

If we educated everybody equally well, someone would still have to collect garbage, bath old people (which pays about $8 a/hour), etc.

Where? That may or may not be a good wage. The new minimum wage increase may or may not increase that wage.

This is the reason I stated in my first response on this thread that I am not wholly opposed to a minimum wage, but I don’t think there should be a national minimum wage. Cost-of-living varies so wildly in this country that a national minimum wage is ridiculous.

 

[jman507]

That’s why an earned income credit makes so much more sense than raising the minimum wage. It actually helps poor people instead of creating artificially high wages for jobs that aren’t worth it.

I would go for that too. I see the problem when you want to make equal pay for equal work, you have a high schooler at the same wage as a parent trying to raise a family. If you set that too high, then there will be more incentive for more high schoolers to work more, to the point their schooling could be hurt. They’ll make a lot of money for a single person without a family, but they’ll kill their potenial options for higher income that would be better to raise a family. If it is set too low, then the parent at an entry level job cannot work and support a family.

Unfortunatly the problem with policies set at a federal level end up not being able to adjust to address local and personal problems. Then try to address that problem above, it’ll just become an ugly mess.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If we educated everybody equally well, someone would still have to collect garbage, bath old people (which pays about $8 a/hour), etc.

Are you saying we should leave some children uneducated so they can be employed collecting garbage, bathing old people and so on?

That is, of course what the Public School system does – and the uneducated are overwhelmingly the Black, Hispanic and poorest whites.

Not much has changed since George Wallace stood in the schoolhouse door, eh?

 

[sirduckjr]

The minimum wage has done wonderful things for us:

1. It has helped fuel inflation.

Almost any economic activity will fuel inflation, or the risk of inflation.

1. It has abolished some jobs altogether – jobs that simply aren’t economically worth the cost of hiring someone to do them.

This is not a bad thing. Its called being effiecent.

. It has driven many jobs overseas.

The “minimum wage” has not driven jobs overseas. The jobs being driven overseas are the union type jobs that pay a decent wage and benefits. Your home state has lost thousands of jobs that paid well over minimum wage to foreign manufactures. The root cause is globalization, not minimum wage requirements.
vern humphrey; 1801377:

1. It has helped fuel the enormous labor Black Market in this country.

Not nearly as much as the refusal of the current administration to enforce existing immigration laws.

1. It has blocked the poorest, least educated people from entering the economic mainstream.

Please explain your reasoning.

 

[hoosiertoo]

I might be willing to hire unskilled and poor Jim at “X”

Jim learns on the job and begins to acquire skills and soon enough his wages go up.

He sees that certain avenues that he may wish to pursue are closed to him because of his lack of education and goes to the local Community College to get it. All the time his value as an employee is increasing and so are his wages.

Say I don’t have a job within my company that will support Jim at his new value, so he takes his newly acquired skills to Vern’s company, and I hire a replacement for Jim.

Now the government has decided that the minimum wage is going to be set at “Y.”

I may decide that the job I hired Jim to do is not worth “Y” and so I don’t fill the position, instead doing it myself or spreading Jim’s duties among other employees.

That’s a position that is not available to another poor, uneducated person to enable him to join the mainstream.

 

[rlg94086]

That’s okay hoosiertoo, because you should just go out of business instead. You are a rich business owner, so you can just go and retire on a beach in the Bahamas.

I might be willing to hire unskilled and poor Jim at “X”

Jim learns on the job and begins to acquire skills and soon enough his wages go up.

He sees that certain avenues that he may wish to pursue are closed to him because of his lack of education and goes to the local Community College to get it. All the time his value as an employee is increasing and so are his wages.

Say I don’t have a job within my company that will support Jim at his new value, so he takes his newly acquired skills to Vern’s company, and I hire a replacement for Jim.

Now the government has decided that the minimum wage is going to be set at “Y.”

I may decide that the job I hired Jim to do is not worth “Y” and so I don’t fill the position, instead doing it myself or spreading Jim’s duties among other employees.

That’s a position that is not available to another poor, uneducated person to enable him to join the mainstream.

 

[estesbob]

Well, I’m speaking more generally about the circumstances at play. Simply saying, “eh, it only takes $10 G, go for it!” doesn’t take into account the realities in most people’s lives.

As far as “dictating how we should run our businesses”, I’m not dictating at all. I’m simply citing Catholic principles which are to be adhered to. In fact, I have considered starting my own business and these are things which I have had to factor into any potential plan for the shop to suceed. So I do take them very much personally to heart.

No you are not citng catholic prnciples. you are merely citing your “opinion” of what catholic principles are. An opinion that would change, I suspect, if you actually had to depend on your own business to provide for your livilihod. The Church has absolutely no stand on the minimum wage.

I am always amazed how us businessmen are made out to be the bad guys in these discussion. I provide the livilihood for 13 other people in two States. How about you?

 

[jimi22]

Now the wage hike news just gets better and better. It seems that it will apply to everywhere but American Samoa, Most of the island works for starkist tuna, company headquarters is in San Francisco; Slick trick by our new speaker who doesn’t want this to apply to a big comany in her own backyard. The wage there is 3.05 per hour, I guess those people don’t deserve an increase like the rest of America does.

 

[estesbob]

Now the wage hike news just gets better and better. It seems that it will apply to everywhere but American Samoa, Most of the island works for starkist tuna, company headquarters is in San Francisco; Slick trick by our new speaker who doesn’t want this to apply to a big comany in her own backyard. The wage there is 3.05 per hour, I guess those people don’t deserve an increase like the rest of America does.

She has already backed down. I suspect the end result will be Starkist will move their plant to indonesia or the Philipnes.

 

[mvinca]

It’s also one reason why Catholic Charities won’t be getting any money from me this year.

Yes, I stopped giving to Catholic Charities a long time ago. They get too involved with politics for my liking (especially since they are on the wrong side of politics ). I give to Catholic Relief Services instead. I especially like their Microfinance Fund. Now that makes good economic sense.

 

[mvinca]

This actually means nothing to me. There are actually some economists who do not believe that tax cuts are good for the economy.

To me this is as simple as kindergarden education. If you let people keep more of the money that they earn they will have more disposable income. More disposable income is good for the economy. Why? Duh??? If there is more money floating around then there are more things being purchased and therefore helping the overall economy.

It is actually more than just more money in the economy. Tax cuts also increase tax revenue. When Regan reduced the taxes from 70% to 50% to 28%, the tax revenue into the governement actually went up. Why? Because at 70% there was absolutely no incentive to make money. At 28%, alot more people are willing to go into business and make money, causing more money to flow into the governement.

 

[CathCentrist]

Minimum wage hiking isnt the problem, its things such as GATT -'93 NAFTA, Globalization, Govt and its insidious relationship with Big Business, etc

I am pro union, anti NAFTA, anti GATT and moderate on an approach to globalizing. People who say MW hikes are ruinous arent looking at the real big picture.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes, I stopped giving to Catholic Charities a long time ago. They get too involved with politics for my liking (especially since they are on the wrong side of politics ). I give to Catholic Relief Services instead. I especially like their Microfinance Fund. Now that makes good economic sense.

Thanks for the heads up…it looks like a good organization to support.

 

[SnorterLuster]

You know all this talk about garbage collectors reminded me of a discussion we had in a class I took. To set the scene, the course was Social Economics taught by Dr. Brinker at the University of Oklahoma. Dr. Brinker was a very liberal professor, but also very fair who really like a good discussion. One day he brought a local paper to class and read us a bit where a public school teacher was testifying before the legislature. She was lobbying for a pay raise and part of her testimony was that garbage collectors get paid more than teachers. She pointed out that teachers were responsible for educating our children and had college degrees. She claimed it wasn’t fair that garbage collectors got paid more than college graduates.

Dr. Brinker then noted that if the teacher thought there was an imbalance in pay, she should just change careers. There was no barrier from her becoming a garbage collector. Even though he was very committed to “social justice”, he realized that the market ultimately provided a fair value for our labor. He noted that people became teachers instead of garbage collectors, for less pay, for the prestige of teaching, for the influence they could wield over children, for the white collar, inside work. In other words, if economics was the only thing that drives us, then the teacher would not bellyache about her pay, she would go apply to the sanintation department for a job.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Minimum wage hiking isnt the problem, its things such as GATT -'93 NAFTA, Globalization, Govt and its insidious relationship with Big Business, etc

I am pro union, anti NAFTA, anti GATT and moderate on an approach to globalizing. People who say MW hikes are ruinous arent looking at the real big picture.

Isn’t it odd how many of those who strongly support such things as raising the minimum wage in the name of Social Justice also vehimenently oppose giving the poorest of the poor – those who live in Third World Contries – any shot at all at joining the World economy?

 

[Kendy]

Where? That may or may not be a good wage. The new minimum wage increase may or may not increase that wage.

This is the reason I stated in my first response on this thread that I am not wholly opposed to a minimum wage, but I don’t think there should be a national minimum wage. Cost-of-living varies so wildly in this country that a national minimum wage is ridiculous.

In Florida, and I agree with you that regional minimum wages would be better than national minimum wage.

 

[Kendy]

Are you saying we should leave some children uneducated so they can be employed collecting garbage, bathing old people and so on?

That is, of course what the Public School system does – and the uneducated are overwhelmingly the Black, Hispanic and poorest whites.

Not much has changed since George Wallace stood in the schoolhouse door, eh?

You have twice suggested that I think people should be left uneducated. I think you know that that is not what I mean.