Catholic Charities USA seeks minimum-wage hike

[chicago]

Yes! And the Church calls us as *indviduals *to pay the just wage. It doesn’t call on governments to determine the proper wage.

But when we fail to justly pay that wage, we as a society have the right to require it by law through our government. Particularly with the governmental system we have, this is an appropriate and legitimate manner of oversight in excercizing checks and balances, for the government is not seperate from us but an extension of us as a people.

 

[jman507]

But when we fail to justly pay that wage, we as a society have the right to require it by law through our government. Particularly with the governmental system we have, this is an appropriate and legitimate manner of oversight in excercizing checks and balances, for the government is not seperate from us but an extension of us as a people.

When it comes to min. wage, I probably won’t put up too much of a fight, though when it is debated all give my apology. In my opinion, it ends up being a bit simplistic, not that simplistic is bad, but it is a bit too general, it is hard to meet all the problems on the micro level. Which if the federal government tries to help general problem, it ends up being too general or it gets so specific that the legislation is up so huge it is hard for anyone to decipher much less execute.

My guess with the min wage is that the more effective it is, the more inflation will occur and/or jobs lost. Although the more jobs are lost the less inflation will probably occur.

In my opinion, I don’t think washing dishes ought to be a wage someone can raise a family on. For the working poor with families, I’d much rather see assistants come with a work/study program. That way the person can be responsible for a family and learn both how to be in a work environment and be able to increase skills. I would like people to be able to given a chance to do just work for a family sustainable wage.

 

[Kendy]

Yes! And the Church calls us as *indviduals *to pay the just wage. It doesn’t call on governments to determine the proper wage.

No, it doesn’t but no does it say it should. The church teaches that markets can and often need to be regulated. Now, whether this is a case that warrants, I don’t know. It may or may nor be, but that doesn’t exclude all government regulation.

 

[Kendy]

Kendy,

We agree more than we disagree. The question is not “what is the right thing to do?” The question is “who is responsible to do it.” There are limits to government involvement…especially a national government of such a large country of ours. This is why the Church wisely teaches the principle of subsidiarity. This is also why I am against a national minimum wage, and lukewarm on any minimum wage.

Pax,

Robert

Well, I can only assume that you believe either markets will resolve the problem of justice perfectly or that people are inherently just and therefore, don’t need persuasion.

Kendy

 

[rlg94086]

No, it doesn’t but no does it say it should. The church teaches that markets can and often need to be regulated. Now, whether this is a case that warrants, I don’t know. It may or may nor be, but*** that doesn’t exclude all government regulation***.

I have never said that…

 

[rlg94086]

But when we fail to justly pay that wage, we as a society have the right to require it by law through our government. Particularly with the governmental system we have, this is an appropriate and legitimate manner of oversight in excercizing checks and balances, for the government is not seperate from us but an extension of us as a people.

Did I ever say we don’t have a right? Obviously, we do, or we wouldn’t have a minimum wage already. The question is whether it is appropriate, beneficial, etc., not whether we have a right to do it.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Just as a general FYI usually free market principles prevail. In the US today the average wage is about $14/hr a sign of free market principles. The fact that some work and hire 60% below that wage indicates there is great diversity, and possibly some problems. Whether there are problems, and whether such problems if found should be ignored is the real issue. Also know that free market principles indicate unjustly installing/increasing the minimum wage would have a negative affect on the economy. Actual studies show the opposite, so there is evidence of some problems

 

[vern_humphrey]

Well, I can only assume that you believe either markets will resolve the problem of justice perfectly or that people are inherently just and therefore, don’t need persuasion.

Kendy

What you’re doing here is using the Fallacy of Limited Alternatives, that there are only two choices, when in fact there are many more – education being a good example.

You are also Begging the Question – asking us to accept your argument that raising the minimum wage will make things better – so you can prove that raising the minimum wage will make things better.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Just as a general FYI usually free market principles prevail. In the US today the average wage is about $14/hr a sign of free market principles. The fact that some work and hire 60% below that wage indicates there is great diversity, and possibly some problems. Whether there are problems, and whether such problems if found should be ignored is the real issue. Also know that free market principles indicate unjustly installing/increasing the minimum wage would have a negative affect on the economy. Actual studies show the opposite, so there is evidence of some problems

The problem is two-fold. The first is that we have a lousy education system – fully 30% of all children never graduate from high school. The second is that even for those who graduate, the education system ignores the needs of the job market.

Consequently, we have an oversupply of poorly-educated unskilled people, even while we have an undersupply of well-educated skilled people.

 

[hoosiertoo]

The problem is two-fold. The first is that we have a lousy education system – fully 30% of all children never graduate from high school. The second is that even for those who graduate, the education system ignores the needs of the job market.

Consequently, we have an oversupply of poorly-educated unskilled people, even while we have an undersupply of well-educated skilled people.

I don’t know that the “needs of the job market” should be paramount; I don’t think schools should become vocational training facilities, although even that would be an improvement for most public schools.

A good education - not just 4 years of attendance and passing a minimum competency test in 10th grade to get a diploma - is the best preparation for the job market. I get applications from people who can’t spell the name of the school from which they graduated. Even auto and truck technicians have to be able to follow trouble shooting procedures and think logically. I spend about $6000.00 per technician to send them to classes to gain expertise on the various systems we service and my biggest problem is finding people worth the investment of time and money.

I therefore end up with a wage disparity among mechanics in my shop. Those I can send to school command higher wages and the competition for their services is fierce. And expensive.

The mechanics I can’t train may work just as hard, and usually harder, but I can replace them more easily and their wages reflect that. Whereas a trained engine tech can command $25 an hour, I might pay a lube tech $9 and a guy who can do the grunt work under the truck $10-13.

We pay janitors $8-9 per hour.

Restaurant help is going for around $8.00 an hour here. Teenagers and housewives actually opt for lower paying part-time retail jobs because they are less work, in a cleaner environment and most of the retailers give whopping discounts to their employees. I think my wife worked for around$7.25 at Penney over the holidays, but she completely redid the decor in our house, upgraded her wardrobe and now works for considerably more than that in her area of expertise.

The effect of the minimum wage hike will be to increase the price of goods at WalMart and other retailers who have the lowest paid help in this area and make it more difficult to attract unskilled workers in the marginally better paying restaurant and janitorial positions.

 

[Listener]

I think it is kind of a Republican thing to be for a low minimum wage. Then everyone can pull him or herself up by their bootstraps so they can get a decent wage. The argument also goes that if people would just get an education, they wouldn’t be making minimum wage. Get the government off our backs, they say, and keep your hands off our money.

I think Catholic Charities is correct. Here is what is really happening. People who are too poor to afford food, housing, child care, and medical insurance because they earn minimum wage are being subsidised by the government. Therefore, if huge companies like Wal Mart can get away with paying sub-poverty wages, it costs more for all of us because of all of the government services that these poor people qualify for. This is just like making out a big welfare check and giving it to Wal Mart.

While it is true that people can improve their situations with education, someone has to change the sheets and clean the toilets when we stay in a motel. Someone has to bring us our food in a restaurant. These jobs are actually dignified work. Sometimes I think that the people that do them are treated worse than slaves. At least slaves had a place to sleep at night.

I think that Switzerland is an example of a country that believes in fair wages for a day’s work.

 

[jman507]

I think it is kind of a Republican thing to be for a low minimum wage. Then everyone can pull him or herself up by their bootstraps so they can get a decent wage. The argument also goes that if people would just get an education, they wouldn’t be making minimum wage. Get the government off our backs, they say, and keep your hands off our money.

I think Catholic Charities is correct. Here is what is really happening. People who are too poor to afford food, housing, child care, and medical insurance because they earn minimum wage are being subsidised by the government. Therefore, if huge companies like Wal Mart can get away with paying sub-poverty wages, it costs more for all of us because of all of the government services that these poor people qualify for. This is just like making out a big welfare check and giving it to Wal Mart.

While it is true that people can improve their situations with education, someone has to change the sheets and clean the toilets when we stay in a motel. Someone has to bring us our food in a restaurant. These jobs are actually dignified work. Sometimes I think that the people that do them are treated worse than slaves. At least slaves had a place to sleep at night.

I think that Switzerland is an example of a country that believes in fair wages for a day’s work.

One cannot go to the magic money tree, and make it sustainable for a company to increase payroll. Actually I take that back the government can go to the magic money tree, make more money, and increase inflation. One has to worry about how much it’ll increase unemployment in this demographic. How much it’ll increase the price of goods for this demographic.

My worry too is that it’ll increase wages for almost every high schooler employed, which might encourage them to work a bit too much to the neglect of their studies and encourage them to hold off on post-high school studies. What make look like great pay for someone right out of high-school, isn’t the same for sufficient pay for later if he/she wants to get married and have a family, but I worry the same person who thinks that might not have the good foresight to realize that.

The effects in the end I’m sure will be more subtle than noticeable – both good and bad effects. I think it’s higher on the good intentions and emotional feel good, and lower on real effectiveness. I don’t think it’s the best move to address problems, might even hurt, but sometimes you have to pick your fights, I don’t like it, but I doubt I’ll fight it too much.

 

[hoosiertoo]

The effects in the end I’m sure will be more subtle than noticeable – both good and bad effects. I think it’s higher on the good intentions and emotional feel good, and lower on real effectiveness. I don’t think it’s the best move to address problems, might even hurt, but sometimes you have to pick your fights, I don’t like it, but I doubt I’ll fight it too much.

The effects are easily noticeable. The government gets a tax increase.

An increase in the mininum wage by 40% = the working poor give the government a pay raise. Too few people get this. There is more than one way to gouge a taxpayer.

 

[josephdavid]

Isaiah 10:1-4
1Woe to those who enact unjust statutes and who write oppressive decrees,
2 Depriving the needy of judgment and robbing my people’s poor of their rights, Making widows their plunder, and orphans their prey!
3 What will you do on the day of punishment, when ruin comes from afar? To whom will you flee for help? Where will you leave your wealth,
4 Lest it sink beneath the captive or fall beneath the slain? For all this, his wrath is not turned back, his hand is still outstretched!

Jeremiah 22:11-17
11 Thus says the LORD concerning Shallum, son of Josiah, king of Judah, who succeeded his father as king. He has left this place never to return.
12 Rather, he shall die in the place where they exiled him; this land he shall not see again.
13 Woe to him who builds his house on wrong, his terraces on injustice; Who works his neighbor without pay, and gives him no wages.
14 Who says, “I will build myself a spacious house, with airy rooms,” Who cuts out windows for it, panels it with cedar, and paints it with vermillion.
15 Must you prove your rank among kings by competing with them in cedar? Did not your father eat and drink? He did what was right and just, and it went well with him.
16 Because he dispensed justice to the weak and the poor, it went well with him. Is this not true knowledge of me? says the LORD.
17 But your eyes and heart are set on nothing except on your own gain, On shedding innocent blood, on practicing oppression and extortion.

Deuteronomy 24: 14-
14 "You shall not defraud a poor and needy hired servant, whether he be one of your own countrymen or one of the aliens who live in your communities.
15 You shall pay him each day’s wages before sundown on the day itself, since he is poor and looks forward to them. Otherwise he will cry to the LORD against you, and you will be held guilty.
16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death.
17 "You shall not violate the rights of the alien or of the orphan, nor take the clothing of a widow as a pledge.
18 For, remember, you were once slaves in Egypt, and the LORD, your God, ransomed you from there; that is why I command you to observe this rule.
19 "When you reap the harvest in your field and overlook a sheaf there, you shall not go back to get it; let it be for the alien, the orphan or the widow, that the LORD, your God, may bless you in all your undertakings.
20 When you knock down the fruit of your olive trees, you shall not go over the branches a second time; let what remains be for the alien, the orphan and the widow.
21 When you pick your grapes, you shall not go over the vineyard a second time; let what remains be for the alien, the orphan, and the widow.
22 For remember that you were once slaves in Egypt; that is why I command you to observe this rule.

Exodus 22
20 "You shall not molest or oppress an alien, for you were once aliens yourselves in the land of Egypt.
21 You shall not wrong any widow or orphan.
22 If ever you wrong them and they cry out to me, I will surely hear their cry.
23 My wrath will flare up, and I will kill you with the sword; then your own wives will be widows, and your children orphans.
24 "If you lend money to one of your poor neighbors among my people, you shall not act like an extortioner toward him by demanding interest from him.
25 If you take your neighbor’s cloak as a pledge, you shall return it to him before sunset;
26 for this cloak of his is the only covering he has for his body. What else has he to sleep in? If he cries out to me, I will hear him; for I am compassionate.
27 "You shall not revile God, nor curse a prince of your people.
28 "You shall not delay the offering of your harvest and your press. You shall give me the first-born of your sons.
29 You must do the same with your oxen and your sheep; for seven days the firstling may stay with its mother, but on the eighth day you must give it to me.
30 "You shall be men sacred to me. Flesh torn to pieces in the field you shall not eat; throw it to the dogs.

 

[rlg94086]

Those are great quotes and demonstrate God’s call to us as individuals to do the right thing as employers.

It also speaks of “unjust statutes.” A small business owner could easily agree with that passage from Isiah as an example of why the government should not force a national minimum wage which would effect small businesses in smaller, lower wage states much worse than larger, higher wage states.

Isaiah 10:1-4
1Woe to those who enact unjust statutes and who write oppressive decrees,
2 Depriving the needy of judgment and robbing my people’s poor of their rights, Making widows their plunder, and orphans their prey!
3 What will you do on the day of punishment, when ruin comes from afar? To whom will you flee for help? Where will you leave your wealth,
4 Lest it sink beneath the captive or fall beneath the slain? For all this, his wrath is not turned back, his hand is still outstretched!

Jeremiah 22:11-17
11 Thus says the LORD concerning Shallum, son of Josiah, king of Judah, who succeeded his father as king. He has left this place never to return.
12 Rather, he shall die in the place where they exiled him; this land he shall not see again.
13 Woe to him who builds his house on wrong, his terraces on injustice; Who works his neighbor without pay, and gives him no wages.
14 Who says, “I will build myself a spacious house, with airy rooms,” Who cuts out windows for it, panels it with cedar, and paints it with vermillion.
15 Must you prove your rank among kings by competing with them in cedar? Did not your father eat and drink? He did what was right and just, and it went well with him.
16 Because he dispensed justice to the weak and the poor, it went well with him. Is this not true knowledge of me? says the LORD.
17 But your eyes and heart are set on nothing except on your own gain, On shedding innocent blood, on practicing oppression and extortion.

Deuteronomy 24: 14-
14 "You shall not defraud a poor and needy hired servant, whether he be one of your own countrymen or one of the aliens who live in your communities.
15 You shall pay him each day’s wages before sundown on the day itself, since he is poor and looks forward to them. Otherwise he will cry to the LORD against you, and you will be held guilty.
16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death.
17 "You shall not violate the rights of the alien or of the orphan, nor take the clothing of a widow as a pledge.
18 For, remember, you were once slaves in Egypt, and the LORD, your God, ransomed you from there; that is why I command you to observe this rule.
19 "When you reap the harvest in your field and overlook a sheaf there, you shall not go back to get it; let it be for the alien, the orphan or the widow, that the LORD, your God, may bless you in all your undertakings.
20 When you knock down the fruit of your olive trees, you shall not go over the branches a second time; let what remains be for the alien, the orphan and the widow.
21 When you pick your grapes, you shall not go over the vineyard a second time; let what remains be for the alien, the orphan, and the widow.
22 For remember that you were once slaves in Egypt; that is why I command you to observe this rule.

Exodus 22
20 "You shall not molest or oppress an alien, for you were once aliens yourselves in the land of Egypt.
21 You shall not wrong any widow or orphan.
22 If ever you wrong them and they cry out to me, I will surely hear their cry.
23 My wrath will flare up, and I will kill you with the sword; then your own wives will be widows, and your children orphans.
24 "If you lend money to one of your poor neighbors among my people, you shall not act like an extortioner toward him by demanding interest from him.
25 If you take your neighbor’s cloak as a pledge, you shall return it to him before sunset;
26 for this cloak of his is the only covering he has for his body. What else has he to sleep in? If he cries out to me, I will hear him; for I am compassionate.
27 "You shall not revile God, nor curse a prince of your people.
28 "You shall not delay the offering of your harvest and your press. You shall give me the first-born of your sons.
29 You must do the same with your oxen and your sheep; for seven days the firstling may stay with its mother, but on the eighth day you must give it to me.
30 "You shall be men sacred to me. Flesh torn to pieces in the field you shall not eat; throw it to the dogs.

 

[josephdavid]

Those are great quotes and demonstrate God’s call to us as individuals to do the right thing as employers.

It also speaks of “unjust statutes.” A small business owner could easily agree with that passage from Isiah as an example of why the government should not force a national minimum wage which would effect small businesses in smaller, lower wage states much worse than larger, higher wage states.

is not the owner or executive of a business an invidual relying on others to perform the work?

Is not a government made of individuals?

How is it we hold a government official responsible for the life of the unborn but nothing for the poor? Is it not Christ’s calling for us all to be charitable?

Also there are no documented proof that I can find that shows affects of past minimum wage hikes. Only I find that after the last one unemployment and prices stayed very steady until 2001.

 

[fix]

How is it we hold a government official responsible for the life of the unborn but nothing for the poor? Is it not Christ’s calling for us all to be charitable?

That is the question I asked in a long ago post in this thread. Where can I find that the Church binds us in matter of minimum wage in the same way it binds us regarding the teaching on abortion?

 

[hoosiertoo]

Is it not Christ’s calling for us all to be charitable?

It is Christ’s calling for you to be charitable.

Government action does not absolve you from responsiblity.

One should examine the principle of subsidiarity carefully.

 

[josephdavid]

It is Christ’s calling for you to be charitable.

Government action does not absolve you from responsiblity.

One should examine the principle of subsidiarity carefully.

Where did I say that the individual is absolved? Would not a combined effort be more effective?

Why is it so difficult to allow the government to also help feed the poor and make sure they had adequate healthcare?

Why should we as a society allow 13 million children to live in poverty and 46 million women and children live with out adequate healthcare?

What is wrong with making business be more responsible for the well being of their employees? instead of exploiting them with lower and lower wages which only produces more burden on the government?

 

[jman507]

Why should we as a society allow 13 million children to live in poverty and 46 million women and children live with out adequate healthcare?

What is wrong with making business be more responsible for the well being of their employees? instead of exploiting them with lower and lower wages which only produces more burden on the government?

Of the 13 million children to live in poverty and 46 million women and children who live without adequate healthcare, how much will raising the min. wage net-impact that?