Catholic Charities USA seeks minimum-wage hike

[mvinca]

Ah, yes. The good 'ole Protestant work ethic!

My great grandparents were good ole’ Italian Catholics. Just because they viewed hard work as a virtue doesn’t make them Protestant.

I don’t really understand why some people see hard work as a vice.

 

[josephdavid]

Are you living up to everything taught in the Catechism?

Not sure what you mean by this question.

 

[rlg94086]

Not sure what you mean by this question.

Well I made a point that the Catechism calls on business owners to pay a just wage, and you cast judgement on business owners. You seem to think that the government ought to enforce the Catechism, so we should start with you… Have you stopped beating your wife?

 

[boppaid]

That’s how my great grandparents did it. I don’t ever remember America promising a free ride, just opportunity.

I have to say that just because that’s how they did it “way back when” doesn’t make it right. We also used to not have car seats and bycicle helmets “way back when”. Sometimes things do improve over time, and I really believe that we should come to each other’s aid when necessary. If parents are gone from the home 120 hours a week, something is wrong. Those poor children!

 

[josephdavid]

Well I made a point that the Catechism calls on business owners to pay a just wage, and you cast judgement on business owners. You seem to think that the government ought to enforce the Catechism, so we should start with you… Have you stopped beating your wife?

Beating my wife? I would assume you are joking.

So you are saying all business are paying just wages? How would you conclude based on the facts I pointed out?

 

[rlg94086]

Beating my wife? I would assume you are joking.

Ya think? What tipped you off?

josephdavid:

So you are saying all business are paying just wages? How would you conclude based on the facts I pointed out?

I am questioning government’s role in enforcing the Catechism’s call for businessmen to pay a just wage. I think the combination of market forces and fellow Catholics speaking out about just wages (social pressure) might be sufficient.

 

[josephdavid]

Ya think? What tipped you off?

I am questioning government’s role in enforcing the Catechism’s call for businessmen to pay a just wage. I think the combination of market forces and fellow Catholics speaking out about just wages (social pressure) might be sufficient.

Sorry to question your sarcasm. I think this cold weather here and the Bears loss is setting me in grumpy mood haha.

What is the point of having a government if they will not defend the “lesser” of us.

I would agree some pressure is getting to congress on this issue. Otherwise I do not think the Democrats would of taken the House the way they did. I believe it was more than just Iraq that got them there. You now see even some Republicans going against the norm of that party to address this issue. A another good example is fighting AIDS in Africa. Before public and Church pressure to the White House the President pretty much ignored that problem.

Also I would ask about this part of the CCC:

2404 "In his use of things man should regard the external goods he legitimately owns not merely as exclusive to himself but common to others also, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as himself."The ownership of any property makes its holder a steward of Providence, with the task of making it fruitful and communicating its benefits to others, first of all his family.

2405 Goods of production—material or immaterial—such as land, factories, practical or artistic skills, oblige their possessors to employ them in ways that will benefit the greatest number. Those who hold goods for use and consumption should use them with moderation, reserving the better part for guests, for the sick and the poor.

2406 Political authority has the right and duty to regulate the legitimate exercise of the right to ownership for the sake of the common good.

Also:
Leviticus 19:9-15 nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/leviticus/leviticus19.htm

Isaiah 10: 1-5
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah10.htm

Jeremiah 22
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/jeremiah/jeremiah22.htm

Ezekiel 22: 25-31
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/ezekiel/ezekiel22.htm

Section VI of U.S. Catholic Bishops writing “A Place at the Table” is something I believe in whole heartedly. Because I had mentioned before it will take more than the Government to end poverty but society as a whole: The individual, the family, businesses and market place AND the government, to work together closely to end poverty. To defend the “lesser among us”

 

[mvinca]

I have to say that just because that’s how they did it “way back when” doesn’t make it right. We also used to not have car seats and bycicle helmets “way back when”. Sometimes things do improve over time, and I really believe that we should come to each other’s aid when necessary. If parents are gone from the home 120 hours a week, something is wrong. Those poor children!

To be fair, being “poorer”, we are talking seasonal jobs, so the 120 hours is more spring and fall. I seem them much more in the winter and summer. Plus, being Hispanic, they tend to still have some culture, which gives them a decent familiy size. So children aren’t left for themselves, they are left with the family. They haven’t fallen for the only have 1.3 kids fallacy yet.

You are right that “way back when” doesn’t make it right. But no where do I see the church saying that working hard is a sin. In fact, I see them saying that selfishness and laziness are sins. Their working for a better life is selfless and very much not a lazy attitude.

 

[rlg94086]

All good points…as are mine. There is more than one way to look at the issue in light of the Catechism and the Bible.

I for one would vote for a local minimum wage increase, if it was required and/or made sense. I am wholly opposed to a national minimum wage, because it does not make sense.

To me, it makes as much sense as the UN putting in place an international minimumm wage. Of course, I shouldn’t give them any ideas, they just might try it!

Sorry to question your sarcasm. I think this cold weather here and the Bears loss is setting me in grumpy mood haha.

What is the point of having a government if they will not defend the “lesser” of us.

I would agree some pressure is getting to congress on this issue. Otherwise I do not think the Democrats would of taken the House the way they did. I believe it was more than just Iraq that got them there. You now see even some Republicans going against the norm of that party to address this issue. A another good example is fighting AIDS in Africa. Before public and Church pressure to the White House the President pretty much ignored that problem.

Also I would ask about this part of the CCC:

2404 "In his use of things man should regard the external goods he legitimately owns not merely as exclusive to himself but common to others also, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as himself."The ownership of any property makes its holder a steward of Providence, with the task of making it fruitful and communicating its benefits to others, first of all his family.

2405 Goods of production—material or immaterial—such as land, factories, practical or artistic skills, oblige their possessors to employ them in ways that will benefit the greatest number. Those who hold goods for use and consumption should use them with moderation, reserving the better part for guests, for the sick and the poor.

2406 Political authority has the right and duty to regulate the legitimate exercise of the right to ownership for the sake of the common good.

Also:
Leviticus 19:9-15 nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/leviticus/leviticus19.htm

Isaiah 10: 1-5
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah10.htm

Jeremiah 22
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/jeremiah/jeremiah22.htm

Ezekiel 22: 25-31
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/ezekiel/ezekiel22.htm

Section VI of U.S. Catholic Bishops writing “A Place at the Table” is something I believe in whole heartedly. Because I had mentioned before it will take more than the Government to end poverty but society as a whole: The individual, the family, businesses and market place AND the government, to work together closely to end poverty. To defend the “lesser among us”

 

[josephdavid]

All good points…as are mine. There is more than one way to look at the issue in light of the Catechism and the Bible.

I for one would vote for a local minimum wage increase, if it was required and/or made sense. I am wholly opposed to a national minimum wage, because it does not make sense.

To me, it makes as much sense as the UN putting in place an international minimumm wage. Of course, I shouldn’t give them any ideas, they just might try it!

It would not make sense for me either if more than 23 states were proactive in addressing this issue. Or better yet corporations such as Walmart address their issues.

But overall as you can see from my previous as your assertion there is more than one way to look at this. I had mentioned before Target’s and Walmart’s claims that they can not pay living wages in city of Chicago. They say it is not possible. However they were unable to answer how some one like Costco, Whole Food Markets, Ikea, and more, are able to and hold same prices.

 

[rlg94086]

It would not make sense for me either if more than 23 states were proactive in addressing this issue. Or better yet corporations such as Walmart address their issues.

I believe in states’ rights (Constitutional perspective) and subsidiarity (Catechetical perspective). Is your state one of the 23? If not, then you should butt out IMHO. If it is, then work locally to change things.

Again, it is no different than the UN forcing India or China to pay a minimum wage, because the standard of living of their impoverished isn’t high enough. There would be outrage if the UN tried this.

 

[josephdavid]

I believe in states’ rights (Constitutional perspective) and subsidiarity (Catechetical perspective). Is your state one of the 23? If not, then you should butt out IMHO. If it is, then work locally to change things.

Again, it is no different than the UN forcing India or China to pay a minimum wage, because the standard of living of their impoverished isn’t high enough. There would be outrage if the UN tried this.

Illinois has their own minimum wage and are increasing it.

I do agree to a certain point… however I am talking Americans doing what is right for all Americans not just the select few.

 

[rlg94086]

Illinois has their own minimum wage and are increasing it.

Well, there you go. Whether it is the appropriate amount or not, Illinoisans (sp?) have spoken. Obviously, that will also take care of your complaints against Target and Walmart in Chicago.

josephdavid:

I do agree to a certain point… however I am talking Americans doing what is right for all Americans not just the select few.

I’m sure your heart is in the right place, but that’s not the way subsidiarity works. One minimum wage would not be right for all Americans. The idea of the Constitution and Subsidiarity is that people on a local basis have a better idea of how things should be done.

I believe the Feds should not be involved in social welfare at all. We don’t need to move taxpayer money from Iowa to the federal government and redirect it to California, or vice versa. Similarly, the federal government should not be telling either Iowa or California what their business should pay employees.

 

[mvinca]

I do agree to a certain point… however I am talking Americans doing what is right for all Americans not just the select few.

As we saw in the statistics we milled over earlier, 1.9% of American families are working (as opposed to not working, a seperate issue) for a minimum wage. I would say 1.9% would be the “select few.” I’m not saying they shouldn’t be helped, but I think it supports the argument that maybe a nation-wide attack on the issue is a little over the top.

***How to calculate 1.9%: Minimum Wage 5.15 * 40 * 52 = 10.7k. Using charts referenced earlier: 4055k of families in that bracket - 2571k of families in that bracket not working = 1484 k of families working for minimum wage (or less, assumably part time, but maybe illegal wages?) 1484k is 1.9% of 77418k families in the report. Feel free to check the math, because I kinda did it quick.

 

[josephdavid]

We don’t need to move taxpayer money from Iowa to the federal government and redirect it to California, or vice versa. Similarly, the federal government should not be telling either Iowa or California what their business should pay employees.

Its Constitutional

 

[rlg94086]

Its Constitutional

Well, if you say so…

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Kindly point out where the Constitution delegates the regulation of wages or the redistribution of wealth in the form of social programs to the United States.

 

[chicago]

My great grandparents were good ole’ Italian Catholics. Just because they viewed hard work as a virtue doesn’t make them Protestant.

I don’t really understand why some people see hard work as a vice.

Hard work certainly isn’t a vice, but a virtue. Yet, the underlying mindset of “getting ahead” by being overworked and becoming societally accepted as “accomplished” which we adhere to (or almost adore) in America is essentially a Calvinistic ideal at it’s root and in the way it is practiced.

 

[rlg94086]

Hard work certainly isn’t a vice, but a virtue. Yet, the underlying mindset of “getting ahead” by being overworked and becoming societally accepted as “accomplished” which we adhere to (or almost adore) in America is essentially a Calvinistic ideal at it’s root and in the way it is practiced.

It’s not quite so black-and-white as you make it sound. I think we are much more conflicted about hard work in America. On the one hand we applaud the accomplishments of someone who worked 'til they dropped and found great success. On the other hand, you will be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn’t preach that balance between home and work life are paramount. I bought into “success theology” before I converted, and most of the self-help books attached with it talk about balance and priorities - God first, then Family, then Country, then your job.

I think the bigger problem we have in society is not the hard work, but rather the goal. I used to desire a mansion, big car, etcetera. After maturing, converting to Catholicism, reading and praying more, my desires are still for a “nice” lifestyle but not much more than a decent house and retirement. I could care less about my car, as long as it is working well. I still have attachment to material things, but not nearly as out-of-whack as before.

 

[chicago]

It’s not quite so black-and-white as you make it sound. I think we are much more conflicted about hard work in America. On the one hand we applaud the accomplishments of someone who worked 'til they dropped and found great success. On the other hand, you will be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn’t preach that balance between home and work life are paramount. I bought into “success theology” before I converted, and most of the self-help books attached with it talk about balance and priorities - God first, then Family, then Country, then your job.

And, yet, there remains at the root of this all a Calvinitic (which is Christian and God believing, remember, just not with the clarity and fullness of a Catholic ethos) mindset of hard work and accomplishment being a necessary sign of your chosenness. Such is how we, secularly unaware, adjudicate someone’s worth in our society and assume that everyone ought to be striving towards by whatever means neccessary. If you can’t “make it” (ironically, through your own efforts), then clearly you are unworthy; not one of the Lord’s Blessed. And that’s your own fault for failing to choose otherwise.

I think the bigger problem we have in society is not the hard work, but rather the goal. I used to desire a mansion, big car, etcetera. After maturing, converting to Catholicism, reading and praying more, my desires are still for a “nice” lifestyle but not much more than a decent house and retirement. I could care less about my car, as long as it is working well. I still have attachment to material things, but not nearly as out-of-whack as before.

And, here, I beleive that you have hit upon what it is that the Church is calling us to in our own approach to work and the morality of human wages.

 

[rlg94086]

And, here, I beleive that you have hit upon what it is that the Church is calling us to in our own approach to work and the morality of human wages.

No argument here…we just differ on the approach.