Catholic charity's appeal over gay adoption fails

[Corki]

No. You don’t know your law. You can’t keep arguing “coulds” and make any legal sense. Law is about what IS.

The adoption service is a public service done outside of the sacraments and outside the sanctuary. They go beyond counseling and assist with persons and the legal/civil documents. Adoption is not a practice of the central tenets of a faith, and it does not occur within the sanctuary. That it is done BY a religious organization is irrelevant in this case, the same way that systematically charging Muslims higher tuition at their schools would be a violation of discrimination law. Refusing to marry Muslims in their sanctuaries is not.

How is that diffferent than the routine practice of Catholic schools charging non-Catholics higher tuition rates? If Catholic Charities decided to limit its services to Catholic couples, would that be protected?

 

[Rence]

Originally Posted by larkin31
No. You don’t know your law. You can’t keep arguing “coulds” and make any legal sense. Law is about what IS.

It’s not different with regards to tuition. Catholic schools are private schools not government owned schools and if they want to charge Catholics one price and non-Catholics (including muslims) another price, they can do that – and that’s actually how it’s done. What they would have a problem with is if they charged specific tution rates for specific racial or ethnic or religious students. But they don’t do that. They have one rate for the Catholics, and one rate for non-Cathnolics. They can also have morality contracts, which can enable them to kick out students if the student OR the parent doesn’t live up to a particular standard. Catholic schools are not owned and operated by the state, they are private, and they are religious and can apply their religous laws in that arena.

Catholic Charties, during adoptions, works with the State. Catholic Charities doesn’t do adoptions, they do placements. The actual paperwork etc is done by the State. So they are not protected by the privelidge that comes with operating a private or religious organization when it comes to adoptions because they are ‘brokering’ them for the State.

Why isn’t this the same for marriages? Because a Catholic marriage is specific to the Catholic Church while secular marriage has nothing to do with the Church and is completely separate. Judges, reverends, priests, rabbis, all apply for the ability to marry people so your priest signs your civil marriage license. So when you get married in the Church and the priest signs your marriage license, you are getting married in the Church and by the State. If someone gets married ONLY in the Catholic Church and the priest does not sign the marriage license, then that couple is NOT recognized as married by the secular government. On the flipside, you don’t need any to go through the Church to get married, you can just go to city hall and be only civily married. The State will recognize it and the Church won’t (unless you’re not Christian then the Church recognizes it). The Catholic Church only marries Catholic couples, and doesn’t marry Jewish, Protestant, or other non-Catholic couples – the secular goverment does that. The two are separate. The two have nothing to do with each other. Secular marriage only provides secular benefits and limitiations, and Church marriage only provides religious benefits and limitiations.

Likewise, when one adopts, they adopt in law, secular law. They don’t adopt within the Church. The two are not the same, in fact, there is only one adoption – Civil. In this case the Church is brokering/working under the State and is therefore obligated to follow the State mandates.

 

[larkin31]

…Why isn’t this the same for marriages? Because a Catholic marriage is specific to the Catholic Church while secular marriage has nothing to do with the Church and is completely separate. Judges, reverends, priests, rabbis, all apply for the ability to marry people so your priest signs your civil marriage license. So when you get married in the Church and the priest signs your marriage license, you are getting married in the Church and by the State. If someone gets married ONLY in the Catholic Church and the priest does not sign the marriage license, then that couple is NOT recognized as married by the secular government. On the flipside, you don’t need any to go through the Church to get married, you can just go to city hall and be only civily married. The State will recognize it and the Church won’t (unless you’re not Christian then the Church recognizes it). The Catholic Church only marries Catholic couples, and doesn’t marry Jewish, Protestant, or other non-Catholic couples – the secular goverment does that. The two are separate. The two have nothing to do with each other. Secular marriage only provides secular benefits and limitiations, and Church marriage only provides religious benefits and limitiations.

Likewise, when one adopts, they adopt in law, secular law. They don’t adopt within the Church. The two are not the same, in fact, there is only one adoption – Civil. In this case the Church is brokering/working under the State and is therefore obligated to follow the State mandates.

Thanks

Yes

 

[Corki]

It’s not different with regards to tuition. Catholic schools are private schools not government owned schools and if they want to charge Catholics one price and non-Catholics (including muslims) another price, they can do that – and that’s actually how it’s done. What they would have a problem with is if they charged specific tution rates for specific racial or ethnic or religious students. But they don’t do that. They have one rate for the Catholics, and one rate for non-Cathnolics. They can also have morality contracts, which can enable them to kick out students if the student OR the parent doesn’t live up to a particular standard. Catholic schools are not owned and operated by the state, they are private, and they are religious and can apply their religous laws in that arena.

Catholic Charties, during adoptions, works with the State. Catholic Charities doesn’t do adoptions, they do placements. The actual paperwork etc is done by the State. So they are not protected by the privelidge that comes with operating a private or religious organization when it comes to adoptions because they are ‘brokering’ them for the State.

I see this as a distinction without a difference. A Catholic school also works “with” the state. They deliver an education that meets state requirements per grade, issue a state-recognized diploma and use different levels of state and federal funding in the delivery of the service (education).

On the flip side, a private adoption, brokered by an attorney can place a child with whoever the attorney or birth parent chooses. If a birth parent told an attorney only to negotiate an adoption with a married heterosexual couple, that’s legal, but if the Catholic Church via Catholic Charities does the same it’s not legal?

 

[larkin31]

I see this as a distinction without a difference. A Catholic school also works “with” the state. They deliver an education that meets state requirements per grade, issue a state-recognized diploma and use different levels of state and federal funding in the delivery of the service (education).

On the flip side, a private adoption, brokered by an attorney can place a child with whoever the attorney or birth parent chooses. If a birth parent told an attorney only to negotiate an adoption with a married heterosexual couple, that’s legal, but if the Catholic Church via Catholic Charities does the same it’s not legal?

What do you mean by “private adoption” exactly? My sense is that state moneys are involved, but I am not sure…

the school is not state funded

 

[Corki]

What do you mean by “private adoption” exactly? My sense is that state moneys are involved, but I am not sure…

the school is not state funded

A private adoption usually means a one-to-one interaction, often through an intermediary such as an attorney, between the birth parents and the adoptive parents.

I don’t know where you live but in the US, most Catholic schools receive some (but very limited) state, federal and/or local funding.

Is Catholic Charities state funded? If so, could they just refuse further state funding and continue as adoption brokers?

 

[larkin31]

A private adoption usually means a one-to-one interaction, often through an intermediary such as an attorney, between the birth parents and the adoptive parents.

I don’t know where you live but in the US, most Catholic schools receive some (but very limited) state, federal and/or local funding.

Is Catholic Charities state funded? If so, could they just refuse further state funding and continue as adoption brokers?

I am a teacher at a private school. I am familiar with some of the law. Part of our accreditation is whether we state that we adhere to the federal antidiscrimination law or not. And of course, as employers, we are bound by certain laws. And as teachers we are bound by other laws. And if we take a certain threshold of state money, we become bound by more laws.

I don’t know the adoption situation, but I am sure that it is governed by specific statutes. And if money is traded hands, and legal guardianship is transfered, the govt is very interested in being careful with this. But I don’t know the specifics.

I do know that this is NOT the same as conducting the sacrament of marriage in a church between consenting adult Catholics.

 

[Corki]

I am a teacher at a private school. I am familiar with some of the law. Part of our accreditation is whether we state that we adhere to the federal antidiscrimination law or not. And of course, as employers, we are bound by certain laws. And as teachers we are bound by other laws. And if we take a certain threshold of state money, we become bound by more laws.

I don’t know the adoption situation, but I am sure that it is governed by specific statutes. And if money is traded hands, and legal guardianship is transfered, the govt is very interested in being careful with this. But I don’t know the specifics.

I do know that this is NOT the same as conducting the sacrament of marriage in a church between consenting adult Catholics.

Why do you keep bringing up marriage? Trying to change the subject?

This ruling, by US standards, is an infringement on the rights of a Catholic (or other religious) organization to act in a manner consistent with the Catholic faith. I am just trying to understand just how slippery this slope actually is. You claimed earlier to “know the law” and I was hoping to get a clearer understanding.

 

[distracted]

Why doesnt Catholic Care take the bull by the horns and defy the Charity Commission? As Catholics, we have a responsibility to combat the results of evil legislation, and, if handing helpless children over to same-sex shackups isnt CHILD ABUSE, then what is it?!!!

There has to be a showdown, and the sooner, the better. Carrying on like a bunch of wimps isn`t the right way.

Instead of continuously retreating, we should downface the enemy, now that hes so visible. Were in a spiritual war, and our counter-attack is long overdue. We should be praying that our spiritual leaders will see the reality, and have the courage to say and do what God expects of them. Ditto for the rest of us.

"United, we stand! Divided, we fall!!"

im fed up with this continuous retreat!*** ***Is there any backbone left?*** ***Were supposed to be The Church MILITANT!

Thanks be to God for the Manhattan Declaration! May it be followed by many others, and may its words be put into action!

i agree… but i dont even understand this thing entirely… Who are these agencies anyway? are they govt-funded??? Who the h- are they to say that homosexuals make good parents… and if THEY can say, why can’t the Catholic Care people say???

why do they HAVE to comply?

just off the top of my head… if i were head of the agency, i would CLOSE rather than give children to gay couples…

 

[larkin31]

I see this as a distinction without a difference. A Catholic school also works “with” the state. They deliver an education that meets state requirements per grade, issue a state-recognized diploma and use different levels of state and federal funding in the delivery of the service (education).

On the flip side, a private adoption, brokered by an attorney can place a child with whoever the attorney or birth parent chooses. If a birth parent told an attorney only to negotiate an adoption with a married heterosexual couple, that’s legal, but if the Catholic Church via Catholic Charities does the same it’s not legal?

Sorry

marriage and adoption were made equivalent in another thread. I cross-referenced here. My bad.

Again, I don’t know how “private” these Catholic adoption services are, and, as I said, operating privately does not mean that one is not subject to state and fed statutes.

 

[rossum]

Why do you keep bringing up marriage? Trying to change the subject?

This ruling, by US standards, is an infringement on the rights of a Catholic (or other religious) organization to act in a manner consistent with the Catholic faith. I am just trying to understand just how slippery this slope actually is. You claimed earlier to “know the law” and I was hoping to get a clearer understanding.

The ruling is by the Charities Commission. If the organisation wishes to continue to be recognised as a charity, and get the appropriate tax advantages then it needs to conform to the Charities Commission ruling. It can always become a fully private limited company and pay the extra tax.

rossum

 

[Corki]

Sorry

marriage and adoption were made equivalent in another thread. I cross-referenced here. My bad.

Again, I don’t know how “private” these Catholic adoption services are, and, as I said, operating privately does not mean that one is not subject to state and fed statutes.

Catholic Charities, at least in the US, is a private organization but they are not usually arranging private adoptions.

My question is, could CC change its business model to provide private adoptions and be able to continue in the adoption business without having to make immoral placements?

My cross reference to schools was that since Catholic schools can discriminate with regard to students and/or employees to limit interaction to those that reflect the Catholic Church’s values, why can’t Catholic Charities do the same?

 

[Corki]

The ruling is by the Charities Commission. If the organisation wishes to continue to be recognised as a charity, and get the appropriate tax advantages then it needs to conform to the Charities Commission ruling. It can always become a fully private limited company and pay the extra tax.

rossum

In the UK, then I assume that Churches are taxed.

 

[larkin31]

The ruling is by the Charities Commission. If the organisation wishes to continue to be recognised as a charity, and get the appropriate tax advantages then it needs to conform to the Charities Commission ruling. It can always become a fully private limited company and pay the extra tax.

rossum

roger

thanks

 

[Rence]

I see this as a distinction without a difference. A Catholic school also works “with” the state. They deliver an education that meets state requirements per grade, issue a state-recognized diploma and use different levels of state and federal funding in the delivery of the service (education).

On the flip side, a private adoption, brokered by an attorney can place a child with whoever the attorney or birth parent chooses. If a birth parent told an attorney only to negotiate an adoption with a married heterosexual couple, that’s legal, but if the Catholic Church via Catholic Charities does the same it’s not legal?

A Catholic School is a private entity. A lawyer working for a private adoption is a private transaction. Catholic Charities negotiating adoptions is not private.

 

[Corki]

A Catholic School is a private entity. A lawyer working for a private adoption is a private transaction. Catholic Charities negotiating adoptions is not private.

And that’s what I am trying to understand. Catholic Charities is not a public institution. It is a private organization. So why is the situation so different and how could CC restructure to keep operating morally and serving the children?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Why doesnt Catholic Care take the bull by the horns and defy the Charity Commission? As Catholics, we have a responsibility to combat the results of evil legislation, and, if handing helpless children over to same-sex shackups isnt CHILD ABUSE, then what is it?!!!

There has to be a showdown, and the sooner, the better. Carrying on like a bunch of wimps isn`t the right way.

Instead of continuously retreating, we should downface the enemy, now that hes so visible. Were in a spiritual war, and our counter-attack is long overdue. We should be praying that our spiritual leaders will see the reality, and have the courage to say and do what God expects of them. Ditto for the rest of us.

"United, we stand! Divided, we fall!!"

im fed up with this continuous retreat!*** ***Is there any backbone left?*** ***Were supposed to be The Church MILITANT!

Thanks be to God for the Manhattan Declaration! May it be followed by many others, and may its words be put into action!

Sadly what will happen here is that Catholic Orphanages would just shut down rather than give in to sin.

 

[Rence]

And that’s what I am trying to understand. Catholic Charities is not a public institution. It is a private organization. So why is the situation so different and how could CC restructure to keep operating morally and serving the children?

Catholic Charities is not a public institution and cannot process adoptions. It’s the same reason that a the government doesn’t recognize Catholic marriages without the marriage license being signed by either a JOP or priest. Yes, another comparison between marriage and adoption – because they are both CIVIL contracts. Neither are “Catholic” contracts.

 

[Corki]

Catholic Charities is not a public institution and cannot process adoptions. It’s the same reason that a the government doesn’t recognize Catholic marriages without the marriage license being signed by either a JOP or priest. Yes, another comparison between marriage and adoption – because they are both CIVIL contracts. Neither are “Catholic” contracts.

I feel like I am talking in circles. I KNOW it is not the same as a marriage - I never brought up marriage. I am trying to make an apples to apples comparison.

How is what CC does different than a private adoption which also has to be recognized by a government authority and certified by a judge (a public official)? Could CC structure itself as a service brokering private adoptions (like attorneys do) rather than its current structure as a private organization that brokers adoptions? Or does the word “Catholic” create such a big bulls-eye that nothing it does will ever satisfy?

 

[Rence]

How is what CC does different than a private adoption which also has to be recognized by a government authority and certified by a judge (a public official)?

A private adoption is different because it’s one-on-one, and privately arranged, not done through a broker that processes multiple applications for multiple applicants and children.

Could CC structure itself as a service brokering private adoptions (like attorneys do) rather than its current structure as a private organization that brokers adoptions?

I’m sorry, I can’t answer that because I don’t have enough information. Along your line of thinking, a lawyer referred by the diocese may be able to serve in that capacity, in a private adoption, but that still leaves Catholic entities that serve as adoption agencies to follow the same laws for non-private transactions.

Or does the word “Catholic” create such a big bulls-eye that nothing it does will ever satisfy?

A “Jewish” organization would be held to the same standards.