Catholic Church and freemasonary?

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PeterClatworthy;6118948]Look, these are serious issues. We have to be very careful here with misuse of the English language.
A Mason or mason is not a Freemason or a Free Mason. There are thousands of masons around the world. Some of them built St Peters at Rome and you still need them to carry out repairs. You should not upset them.
Lets not confuse operative masonry with speculative masonry. There is a huge difference and we both know that.
The link. I followed the link and thank you for that but I was already completely familiar with it and the current situation. It is a part of my job description to communicate with Rome and we also have local representation in the form of the Grand Master’s personal representative, a Professor of Divinity at Milan University.
If it is your job to communicate with Rome as you say then some sort of documentation of your group being ok with Rome/Holy See should be not a problem to produce.
It is crystal clear that the pure and original form of original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry, by its very definition could NOT be included. Utterly impossible.
Then explain how.
If you think that it should be, then that is a different matter. If so, perhaps you would be kind enough to say why?
There is a link to our website hereunder.
I have been to your link that is in your signature. It was one of the first things I did when I saw your postings and I thank you for providing it. I must consider your sect ban. You are the one saying it is perfectly fine with the Holy See so the burden of proof lies with you.
Here is a question for you. If somebody started an organisation named the Poodle Club, or the Moderns changed its name to the Friends of the Pope in Rome, and never agin mentioned the word “freemasonry” would that mean that the ban would be lifted? Of course not.
It is not the word “freemason” that is banned, it is what the freemasonry is, what it does and what it means.
I understand that it is not the word freemason that is band it is the group. This was a group I had to leave when I came home to the CC. So I am not ignorant of it’s ongoings.
In terms of what The Grand Lodge of All England is, what it does, and what it means, it is totally impossible to be included in the ban. The ban has clear reasons and a clear description of what is banned. We, the Grand Lodge of All England is not included.
Lay out specifically why it is not under the ban then.
 
You still don’t get it do you? “Your statement will remain the status quo” on bed of shifting sand until YOU produce solid verifiable proof! Your word is NOT evidence for the snake oil your selling and until there is some solid research to back your claims (this needs to be in peer reviewed journals) your statements are meaningless!!

I believe you know this and its the reason you just repeat yourself instead of showing us the evidence. I’m sure once you present your evidence the Pope and Patriarchs will issue a statement saying if you spell Masonry with an “ie” your good to go!! :rolleyes:

There are many many many groups claiming to be true Hospitallers but to my knowledge there are only three (Russian, English Crown, Papal) that can prove they are true decedents form the original Knights Hospitallers. Until you can do the same you will just be another pretender group claiming to be the “real thing”!
Why are you, so aggresively, asking me to prove something that I do not believe?. You have slipped on somebody else’s snake oil old lad.

I have NEVER claimed any descendancy for the Grand Lodge of All England from the Knights Templar, or the Knights Hospitaller to Freemasonry, freemasonry or free Masonrie.

Now calm down and explain what your problem is?
 
PeterClatworthy;6118882]Not true. There are thousands of masons around the world who are not Freemasons. Some of them built St Peter’s at Rome and you need them for the repair work.
That would be operative masons you know stone workers. Not speculative masonry or aka freemasonry
agent_grey’s statement also misunderstands how ex-communication works. Ex-communication means that that a person is in a state of mortal sin and ex-communicate ( i.e. cannot receive Holy Communion).
It does NOT mean that he is not a Catholic. You cannot un-baptise a Catholic. It is a life sentence.
You are correct in saying one can not remove ones baptism. That does not change one is in a grave state of mortal sin and ex-communicated. This puts one’s eternal soul in jeopardy.
It is quite clear that if a Moderns Freemason resigns and then sincerely confesses that his former membership was a mortal sin then he will receive absolution.
You are correct on this. This applies to speculative forms of masonry as being a operative mason is not a sin.
 
Why are you, so aggresively, asking me to prove something that I do not believe?. You have slipped on somebody else’s snake oil old lad.

I have NEVER claimed any descendancy for the Grand Lodge of All England from the Knights Templar, or the Knights Hospitaller to Freemasonry, freemasonry or free Masonrie.

Now calm down and explain what your problem is?
LOL! By suggesting that your form of freemasonry is per-Davidic is borrowing from the themes used by many to connect freemasonry to ancient times. IF YOU would like to say YOUR free masonrie is pre-Davidic then YOU need to prove this.

Also, I’m not excited I just don’t like when people try to fool innocent people with shady word plays that could lead them astray. I get that you have no connection to real freemasonry but you are borrowing some themes, making others up, and connecting the dots in ways that don’t make sense.
 
That would be operative masons you know stone workers. Not speculative masonry or aka freemasonry

You are correct in saying one can not remove ones baptism. That does not change one is in a grave state of mortal sin and ex-communicated. This puts one’s eternal soul in jeopardy.

You are correct on this. This applies to speculative forms of masonry as being a operative mason is not a sin.
Agreed,
agreed,
not agreed. I do not believe that this term is used in any ban or condemnation as a blanket reference. The term used is “freemasonry” with a clear and specifc description, not “all forms of speculative freemasonry.”

We should not use the word mason when we mean Freemason, freemason, or Free Mason. It is not fair to include stone masons as opposed to Freemasons in the condemnation and ban due to poor grammar.

Out of interest, the word “speculative” first appeared in a manuscript dated 1420 referring to Prince Edwin of York’s Mastership of the Grand Lodge at York (AD926).
]“of speculatyf was he a Master …”
 
LOL! By suggesting that your form of freemasonry is per-Davidic is borrowing from the themes used by many to connect freemasonry to ancient times. IF YOU would like to say YOUR free masonrie is pre-Davidic then YOU need to prove this.

Also, I’m not excited I just don’t like when people try to fool innocent people with shady word plays that could lead them astray. I get that you have no connection to real freemasonry but you are borrowing some themes, making others up, and connecting the dots in ways that don’t make sense.
We have proved it. Take a look at our website. When you have read the historical source references, get back to me, and please let me know EXACTLY why you would disagree with the history of Free Masonrie. Then I might give you another long list.

Saltair Na Rann; Tracing our Ancestors by Frederick Haberman; The Veil of Isis or Mysteries of the Druids, W. Windwood Reade, 1861; The Collected Works of John Chrysostom, 5th century Christian Bishop of Constantinople; The works of Dion Chrysostom, Greek Philosopher; the works of Ammianus Marcellus, Historian AD 350; The Spirit of Masonry revised by Dr George Oliver, published by Bell Publishing, Wiliam Hutchinson: New York, 1775; Bulfinch’s Mythology, Thomas Bulfinch, 1855; St. Paul in Britain, Rev’d R. W. Morgan: 1860; Not in His Image, published by Chelsea Green Publishing Company, John Lamb Lash, 2006; The Druids and the Politics of Celtic Scholarship, John Toland: 1670-1722; The Royal Masonic Cyclopaedia of History, Rites, Symbolism, and Biography, published by J.W. Bolton, Kenneth R.H. MacKenzie: New York, 1877; Local Studies Collection, The County Library: Tallaght, Dublin, Eire; The Celtic Church and the Influence of the East, Rev’d John Stirton, B.D., F.S.A. [Scot.]: 1923; The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles; Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, 1833-1836; Secret Traditions in Freemasonry, published by Rebman Limited, Arthur Edward Waite: London 1911; Masonic Eclectic or Gleanings from the Harvest Field of Masonic Literature Part 2, John W. Simons, 1860; The Mysteries of Britain: Secret Rites and Traditions of Ancient Britain Restored, 1905; The Arcane Schools, a Review of their Origin and Antiquity with a History of Freemasonry, John Yarker: Belfast 1909; Encyclopaedia Brittanica 11th edition: 1911; Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man: the Evolution of Religious Doctrine from the Eschatology of the Anciet Egyptians; publihed by George Allen and Company Ltd., Albert Churchward: London England, 1913; Ancient Freemasonry: An Introduction to Masonic Archeology, The Culdees as Early Masons, by Frank Higgins: New York, 1919; A New Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry (Ars Magna Latomorum) and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: Their Rites, Literature, and History, Arthur Edward Waite, 1921; The Roots of Freemasonry by Trevor Jenkins, Nautilus Lodge 4259, United Grand Lodge of England; Ancient Mystic Rites, Charles Webster Leadbetter, 1926; The Traditions of Glastonbury by E. Raymond, Capt, MA, AIA, FSA Scot.; Patrick, the Druids, and the Celtic Church; The Northern Antiquarian: Megalithic Sites, Holy Wells & Ancient Remains of Northern Britain, Roms Law Circle (moot or meeting place); The Templar Papers: ancient mysteries, secret societies, and the Holy Grail, Oddvar Olsen: 2006; Irish Origins of Civilization, Appendix I, Druidic Symbolism, The Druids, Michael Tsarion: 2008; A Brief History of Lodge Mother Kilwinning No. 0, Grand Lodge of Scotland; British History Online; The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton, 1914; Craft, Trade or Mystery, Part One, Britain from Gothic Cathedrals to The Tolpuddle Conspirators - Dr Bob James. 2001; The Complete Freemason or Multa Paucis, Anon, 1763; The Holy Land of Scotland, Jesus in Scotland & the Gospel of the Grail by Barry Dunford; Fabric Rolls and accounts of the York Minster.

Now, you may have forgotten, but what was the point that you were trying to make about the Knights Hospitaller in reference to Freemasonry, freemasonry, or Free Masonrie? By your aggressive tone it was obviously important to you. I think you used some derogatory American term such as “snake oil” or something.

If you have changed your mind, I will accept your apology.
 
We have proved it. Take a look at our website. When you have read the historical source references, get back to me, and please let me know EXACTLY why you would disagree with the history of Free Masonrie. Then I might give you another list.

Saltair Na Rann; Tracing our Ancestors by Frederick Haberman; The Veil of Isis or Mysteries of the Druids, W. Windwood Reade, 1861; The Collected Works of John Chrysostom, 5th century Christian Bishop of Constantinople; The works of Dion Chrysostom, Greek Philosopher; the works of Ammianus Marcellus, Historian AD 350; The Spirit of Masonry revised by Dr George Oliver, published by Bell Publishing, Wiliam Hutchinson: New York, 1775; Bulfinch’s Mythology, Thomas Bulfinch, 1855; St. Paul in Britain, Rev’d R. W. Morgan: 1860; Not in His Image, published by Chelsea Green Publishing Company, John Lamb Lash, 2006; The Druids and the Politics of Celtic Scholarship, John Toland: 1670-1722; The Royal Masonic Cyclopaedia of History, Rites, Symbolism, and Biography, published by J.W. Bolton, Kenneth R.H. MacKenzie: New York, 1877; Local Studies Collection, The County Library: Tallaght, Dublin, Eire; The Celtic Church and the Influence of the East, Rev’d John Stirton, B.D., F.S.A. [Scot.]: 1923; The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles; Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, 1833-1836; Secret Traditions in Freemasonry, published by Rebman Limited, Arthur Edward Waite: London 1911; Masonic Eclectic or Gleanings from the Harvest Field of Masonic Literature Part 2, John W. Simons, 1860; The Mysteries of Britain: Secret Rites and Traditions of Ancient Britain Restored, 1905; The Arcane Schools, a Review of their Origin and Antiquity with a History of Freemasonry, John Yarker: Belfast 1909; Encyclopaedia Brittanica 11th edition: 1911; Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man: the Evolution of Religious Doctrine from the Eschatology of the Anciet Egyptians; publihed by George Allen and Company Ltd., Albert Churchward: London England, 1913; Ancient Freemasonry: An Introduction to Masonic Archeology, The Culdees as Early Masons, by Frank Higgins: New York, 1919; A New Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry (Ars Magna Latomorum) and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: Their Rites, Literature, and History, Arthur Edward Waite, 1921; The Roots of Freemasonry by Trevor Jenkins, Nautilus Lodge 4259, United Grand Lodge of England; Ancient Mystic Rites, Charles Webster Leadbetter, 1926; The Traditions of Glastonbury by E. Raymond, Capt, MA, AIA, FSA Scot.; Patrick, the Druids, and the Celtic Church; The Northern Antiquarian: Megalithic Sites, Holy Wells & Ancient Remains of Northern Britain, Roms Law Circle (moot or meeting place); The Templar Papers: ancient mysteries, secret societies, and the Holy Grail, Oddvar Olsen: 2006; Irish Origins of Civilization, Appendix I, Druidic Symbolism, The Druids, Michael Tsarion: 2008; A Brief History of Lodge Mother Kilwinning No. 0, Grand Lodge of Scotland; British History Online; The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton, 1914; Craft, Trade or Mystery, Part One, Britain from Gothic Cathedrals to The Tolpuddle Conspirators - Dr Bob James. 2001; The Complete Freemason or Multa Paucis, Anon, 1763; Fabric Rolls and accounts of the York Minster.
If you think this is proof then so be it but you are wrong and will never be taken serious until you figure out scientific proof thing!
Now, you may have forgotten, but what was the point that you were trying to make about the Knights Hospitaller in reference to Freemasnry, freemasnry, or Free Masonrie? By your aggressive tone it was obviously important to you. I think you called it my “snake oil” or something.

If you have changed your mind, I will accept your apology.
My point was there are TRUE verifiable groups of Hospitallers that can trace their lineage to the original Hospitallers with co-opting others history. There are also groups of Hospitallers that form and make unsubstantiated claims on their websites (like yours) using names, dates, and sources that are not theirs to use. This comparison between you and the pseudo-Hospitallers is a good one so no apology will be coming!

Also, read what I wrote in context without mixing things. This may help your understanding of what I’m writing! 😉
 
If you think this is proof then so be it but you are wrong and will never be taken serious until you figure out scientific proof thing!

My point was there are TRUE verifiable groups of Hospitallers that can trace their lineage to the original Hospitallers with co-opting others history. There are also groups of Hospitallers that form and make unsubstantiated claims on their websites (like yours) using names, dates, and sources that are not theirs to use. This comparison between you and the pseudo-Hospitallers is a good one so no apology will be coming!

Also, read what I wrote in context without mixing things. This may help your understanding of what I’m writing! 😉
I will take you seriously when you read this preliminary list of source documents and references and then criticise them, and not me on the basis of ignorance.

We do not mention the Knights Hospitaller on our website. What is your point about the Knights Hospitaller and The Grand Lodge of All England?

You are quick to deride but very slow to answer a simple question.

What is your problem?

This may help you because you clearly have no intention of educating yourself with the preliminary reading list that I offered you.

Let us start with a key issue. Are you trying to say that the Celtic Christian Church did not have Druidic roots? Once we clear that one up we can move on. We can get back to see what Druidism was, and where it came from, and then we can move forward from the Culdees to the Culdee Free Masons at the York Minster and at Kilwinning in Scotland.
 
We do not mention the Knights Hospitaller on our website. What is your point about the Knights Hospitaller and The Grand Lodge of All England?
Are you serious? Who said you did? Read what I said and why I said it! I used FALSE groups of usurpers Hospitallers as a COMPARISON to you and your group. I said they also yous names and dates that are not theirs to use as you have! I never said your group or any freemason group has anything whatsoever to do with Hospitallers.

I already answered what what my problem is but again you did not read what I wrote!
 
Why would you have Prince Hall Masons listed on your site? Since they were formed as a fraternity for African Americans based on Modern Freemasonry and are now excepted by most Grand Lodges why would your group list them? Maybe to blur the lines between real Freemasons and your group?
 
Are you serious? Who said you did? Read what I said and why I said it! I used FALSE groups of usurpers Hospitallers as a COMPARISON to you and your group. I said they also yous names and dates that are not theirs to use as you have! I never said your group or any freemason group has anything whatsoever to do with Hospitallers.

I already answered what what my problem is but again you did not read what I wrote!
Well that is not very nice is it? Look, brigantine, whoever you are, why don’t we deal with the issues?

Let us start from my previous posting and we can move this forward to a informed conclusion.

The question. Are you saying that there are no connections between the Celtic Christian Church and Druidism?

Once that link has beeen demonstrated to you beyond all reasonable doubt, that is a key point in Masonic history.

We can then go back to the origins of Druidism to pre-Davidic times, and forward to the Free Masons of York Minster and Kilwinning, providing a seemless link to the Free Masonrie of today.

I think that this approach is not only reasonable, but a scientific one.

Your choice. Your biased opinion based upon ignorance, or self-education that might improve your mind and your knowledge of the world around you.

Please yourself. The offer is there.
 
Let us start with a key issue. Are you trying to say that the Celtic Christian Church did not have Druidic roots? Once we clear that one up we can move on. We can get back to see what Druidism was, and where it came from, and then we can move forward from the Culdees to the Culdee Free Masons at the York Minster and at Kilwinning in Scotland.
LOL you really have no idea what I know! 😃

Try reading a book by Father Gregory Telepneff called ***The Egyptian Desert in the Irish Bogs: The Byzantine Character of Early Celtic Monasticism *** and you may start to grasp the real character of early Celtic Christianity! The book is published by the “Center for Traditional Orthodox Studies” and is a great piece to get references for further study. 👍
 
Well that is not very nice is it? Look, brigantine, whoever you are, why don’t we deal with the issues?
I think I’ve been pretty restrained in this discussion but if you feel I’m not being nice I apologize. I’m not trying to be mean to you just show you are not a real historic group.
 
Why would you have Prince Hall Masons listed on your site? Since they were formed as a fraternity for African Americans based on Modern Freemasonry and are now excepted by most Grand Lodges why would your group list them? Maybe to blur the lines between real Freemasons and your group?
You and others are exactly right in noting that Mr. Clatworthy’s dance is nothing but wordplay.

His self-styled “Grand Lodge of All England” is but four years old - and only in the last two months have they eschewed the word “Freemasonry” in favor of their current design of “Free Masonrie” (much like a Farie Tale!).

They’re quite quick enough to produce a VERY lengthy list of Freemasons. If they didn’t want to be associated with ‘that’ ‘Freemasonry’, then why have the list? It’s simple: obfuscation.

Mr. Clatworthy can’t produce anything from the Holy See and they could hardly care about this little group with but a handful of members, trying to play dress-up.

Mr. Clatworthy also wants to use a single example to prove a universal point; his logic falls totally flat but he’s not one to back down from a fight and has threatened many on the internet with lawsuits for having the audacity to question his statements. It should also be noted that Mr. Clatworthy, using the screen name of Grandsecretary, has been banned from this forum previously. It should be obvious to all why…

I’d encourage all of you to not waste your time with idle foolishness such as this. There are so many more important things in the world than an old Brit craving for attention.

Ed King
Webmaster www.masonicinfo.com Anti-Masonry: Points of View
And about Mr. Clatworthy’s group, see www.masonicinfo.com/allenglend.htm
 
LOL you really have no idea what I know! 😃

Try reading a book by Father Gregory Telepneff called ***The Egyptian Desert in the Irish Bogs: The Byzantine Character of Early Celtic Monasticism *** and you may start to grasp the real character of early Celtic Christianity! The book is published by the “Center for Traditional Orthodox Studies” and is a great piece to get references for further study. 👍
I will. Thank you for that reference. I have not read the work, but I certainly will.

You are quite right, I know more of what you do not know.

The answer to the question please and then we can move forward. 👍
 
I will. Thank you for that reference. I have not read the work, but I certainly will.
Your welcome! Its a good read and its pretty short. It will act as a gateway for further study.
The answer to the question please and then we can move forward. 👍
If you mean was there Druidic influence in early Celtic Christianity the answer is maybe. Its hard to say for sure because there is no Druidic writings by the Druids themselves. There is much more evidence that early Celtic Christianity was influenced by Saint Anthony the Great, Saint Pachomios, and Saint Cassian than the Druids. Do I personally believe the Druids had some influence on early Celtic Christianity? Yes, some. I believe this because Christianity always adapted to the places it was. They call parts of the Russian forest the Northern Thebaid beach of the influence of the Egyptian Monastic of the Thebaid, but it still has Russian characteristics. This would give me reason to believe that early Celtic Christianity would have had “some” outward influences of the druids if for no other reason the weather/seasons in Ireland compared to the Desert.

All this still does not make the leap of faith that is needed to explain what your trying to explain. Like I said before if you really feel you have proof publish your findings because I’m sure the world would love to see it. Until that time it is speculation at best and nothing more.

Again I’m not trying to be mean just factual!
 
This whole thread reinforces my decision. I am a Free Mason until midnight tonight 12/31/09. I have resigned as I am in the process of ‘coming home’ to the Catholic Church. I have been a FM for 40 some years. I have seen my error and will confess prior to my confirmation.
:blessyou:
 
Why would you have Prince Hall Masons listed on your site? Since they were formed as a fraternity for African Americans based on Modern Freemasonry and are now excepted by most Grand Lodges why would your group list them? Maybe to blur the lines between real Freemasons and your group?
What are you talking about?
 
Your welcome! Its a good read and its pretty short. It will act as a gateway for further study.

If you mean was there Druidic influence in early Celtic Christianity the answer is maybe. Its hard to say for sure because there is no Druidic writings by the Druids themselves. There is much more evidence that early Celtic Christianity was influenced by Saint Anthony the Great, Saint Pachomios, and Saint Cassian than the Druids. Do I personally believe the Druids had some influence on early Celtic Christianity? Yes, some. I believe this because Christianity always adapted to the places it was. They call parts of the Russian forest the Northern Thebaid beach of the influence of the Egyptian Monastic of the Thebaid, but it still has Russian characteristics. This would give me reason to believe that early Celtic Christianity would have had “some” outward influences of the druids if for no other reason the weather/seasons in Ireland compared to the Desert.

All this still does not make the leap of faith that is needed to explain what your trying to explain. Like I said before if you really feel you have proof publish your findings because I’m sure the world would love to see it. Until that time it is speculation at best and nothing more.

Again I’m not trying to be mean just factual!
“The Druidical College of Derry was converted into a Culdee Monastery. About the year 561 Columba and twelve companions left Ireland to build the Monastery of Icolmkill (sic Iona), and Masonic legend assigns the lectures of Harodim to this Monastery; they founded Colleges at Govan and Kilwinning.” (SOURCE: The Druids and the Politics of Celtic Scholarship, John Toland: 1670-1722)
“Nothing is clearer than that Patrick engrafted Christianity on the pagan superstitions with so much skill that he won the people over to the Christian religion before they understood the exact difference between the two systems of beliefs; and much of this half pagan, half Christian religion will be found, not only in the Irish stories of the Middle Ages, but in the superstitions of the peasantry of the present day.” (SOURCE: Annals of the Kingdom by the Four Masters)
"Was Patrick a converted Druid? Well we do know that from the Annals of the Kingdom by the Four Masters he had a Druidic Master/Tutor, Milcho, and perhaps knowing the doctrine of the old religion helped him develop a path of revival and lead the people away from quasi-Levitic rites and ceremonies to real spiritual Christianity and the worship of Christ. (SOURCE: Patrick, the Druids, and the Celtic Church)
The “snakes” that were driven out of Ireland is a reference to the conversion of the Druids to Chrisitianity. Druidism was known as a “Snake Cult” due to their habit of carrying an anguinum on their persons, known as a Druid’s Egg.
 
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