Catholic Church and freemasonary?

[PeterClatworthy]

Louis Armstrong was a Prince Hall Freemason.

Oh, I see. You are looking at the poplular list of famous freemasons. There is a disclaimer on that page.

“This is a general, popular list, comprising freemasons from many different Masonic obediences from around the world, not just from the Grand Lodge of All England.”

We make no claim to any but our own.

 

[brigantine]

“The Druidical College of Derry was converted into a Culdee Monastery. About the year 561 Columba and twelve companions left Ireland to build the Monastery of Icolmkill (sic Iona), and Masonic legend assigns the lectures of Harodim to this Monastery; they founded Colleges at Govan and Kilwinning.” (SOURCE: The Druids and the Politics of Celtic Scholarship, John Toland: 1670-1722)

Peter I think we are at an impasse because your using bits and pieces to thread together a history of Christianity that is not excepted by the Church. This would be like me using Nestorius for my thoughts on the Churches teachings of the nature of Christ. It does not work. You are asking Catholics to except that they can join YOUR form of Freemasonrie because it is different from other Freemasnry but are giving no evidence why. While I except John Toland may except this as Truths would a Catholic scholar form the same opinion? If so why no Catholic works about this form a freemasonrie? You are selling a bill of goods to Catholics so your sources need to be excepted by Catholics. This is why I’ve been telling you to publish your research and present it to Papal scholars.

 

[brigantine]

Oh, I see. You are looking at the poplular list of famous freemasons. There is a disclaimer on that page.

We make no claim to any but our own.

Ok but why have them there at all? You strongly protest being associated with the “Moderns” (Ed’s group) yet list many of their member their. This would be like my Church the OCA listing some schismatics on there website with a disclaimer on the bottom. Does this make any sense?

 

[masonicinfo]

Oh, I see. You are looking at the poplular list of famous freemasons. There is a disclaimer on that page.

In point of fact, there is no indication whatsoever that he was a member of any Masonic organization but was rather a member of the Knights Of Pythias. www.masonicinfo.com/famousnon.htm has the story.

We make no claim to any but our own.

HILARIOUS. Not only do you have “Stachmo” on your website but you’ve also got hundreds of others who died a LONG time before your four year old organization ever saw the light of day - and don’t bother to prattle on with the dances about existing before time immemorial and all that poo.

People can see what you’re doing, Peter: you’re trying to get attention in all the places that will, obviously, want to give you some. Isn’t it time to go back to David Icke’s forums and pound around there to get to your 5,000 posts? (He’s now at over 4,200, folks - which should tell you an awful lot. He’s compatible with Icke and Catholics: hmmmm… )

Ed King
Webmaster www.masonicinfo.com Anti-Masonry: Points of View
And about Mr. Clatworthy’s group, see www.masonicinfo.com/allenglend.htm

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Peter I think we are at an impasse because your using bits and pieces to thread together a history of Christianity that is not excepted by the Church. This would be like me using Nestorius for my thoughts on the Churches teachings of the nature of Christ. It does not work. You are asking Catholics to except that they can join YOUR form of Freemasonrie because it is different from other Freemasnry but are giving no evidence why. While I except John Toland may except this as Truths would a Catholic scholar form the same opinion? If so why no Catholic works about this form a freemasonrie? You are selling a bill of goods to Catholics so your sources need to be excepted by Catholics. This is why I’ve been telling you to publish your research and present it to Papal scholars.

Oh I know that it is not accepted by “The Church”. I am not “selling” anything brigantine because there is no profit in it except countering any slanders upon our good name.

I came here simply to reply to threads about Freemasonry per se from our (GLoAE) point of view. You have your view but you must admit that our Free Masonrie is NOT the freemasonry of the Enlightenment, far from it. Chalk and cheese.

What is clear, from the very careful,description included in all of the Papal edicts, bans and statements, that the precise form of freemasonry that is considered anti-Catholic is the Moderns form, and not our pure and religious Anglo-Saxon form.

If, as I asked earlier, you would bullet point the objections that the Catholic Church has towards Freemasonry it will be self evident.

A submission to Rome is already well under way in preparation and will be made towards the end of this year, 2010.

 

[brigantine]

People can see what you’re doing, Peter: you’re trying to get attention in all the places that will, obviously, want to give you some. Isn’t it time to go back to David Icke’s forums and pound around there to get to your 5,000 posts? (He’s now at over 4,200, folks - which should tell you an awful lot. He’s compatible with Icke and Catholics: hmmmm… )

Now this is troubling! Icke’s believes in lizardmen and masonic conspiracy theories.

I think Catholics here should have enough info to make an informed decision. Thats all I wanted to do was make sure nobody does anything that will get them in trouble.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Now this is troubling! Icke’s believes in lizardmen and masonic conspiracy theories.

I think Catholics here should have enough info to make an informed decision. Thats all I wanted to do was make sure nobody does anything that will get them in trouble.

Yes, I entirely agree with you. That is why they need to know the actual situation and not a perceived situation.

IMHO David Icke is completely bonkers, but his website and forum is widely read.

It is a major part of my job to be the public voice for the Grand Lodge at York. Part of this is countering any unfair or damaging claims that are made in the public arena.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Publish your work and have your peers review it! When I did my thesis on Nitrogen Sinks in Aquatic Wetlands, I published this in a scientific journal and it was reviewed and changes made accordingly. This is what YOU need to do! Find am Archeological Society that is recognized by major scientific institutions and present you research to them for publishing in their journal. If and only if they allow this then present your evidence to the Pope! Its very simple if you have credible work. I can also guarantee you that if your work is proven true you will make a ton of money!!

First of all let me make it quite clear that I am not personally interested in money. I am very satisied with my employment with the Grand Lodge of All England, which pays me a small stipendiary. The Grand Lodge itself is very well supported and funded. I take it that you are not suggesting that this is our motivation because I am a great believer that you judge others by the standards that you set for yourself.

We publish articles on our blog: grandlodge.blogspot.com/ and the history of Grand Lodges in England, on our website, is extensively and independently sourced and referenced.

You asked me why it is impossible for pure and original Anglo-Saxon to be included in the ban. The reason is that the Papal Bulls, edicts and bans are specific in their description of the Moderns form of freemasonry (a naturalistic religion). There is no doubt about this and it is disingenuous to suggest that the ban is on “all forms of freemasonry”. That is simpy not true.

It would be totally ridiculous to append the Bulls or edicts or descripions and conditions to pure and religious Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie. The founder of the Grand Lodge at York was the man who was responsible for the translation of the Holy Bible into Anglo-Saxon English from Latin in order to spread Christianity amongst the English speaking peoples.

Now you agreed, quite correctly, that it cannot simply be the word “freemasonry” that is the object of the ban but what an organisation is, what it means, and what it does. On all three counts, membership of The Grand Lodge of All England is wholly compatible with parallel membership of the Roman Catholic Church.

It is now up to you to tell me why you think that this is not the case. I can do no more and indeed we do not need to do anything else. Hiwever, we are preparing a detailed submission which will be delivered by hand to Rome later this year.

 

[brigantine]

It is now up to you to tell me why you think that this is not the case. I can do no more and indeed we do not need to do anything else. Hiwever, we are preparing a detailed submission which will be delivered by hand to Rome later this year.

If I was Catholic I would wait till Rome gives its thoughts on your organization before joining because I do not believe it is exceptable now. Like I stated before you use many names of your website of known “modern” Freemasons and then add a disclaimer to justify this. You call out Ed here and his group (which is modern Freemasonry) yet its Ed’s group that many of the named Freemasons belong to. So what is your position? Are you connected with modern freemasonry or not? You seem to what your cake and eat it to. By this I mean you want the notoriety that comes with these famous names but not the baggage their Freemasonry comes with! If you claim to be some groups that originally descended from the Druids and is TOTALLY apart from modern Freemasonry (getting around the Papal bans) then you should have absolutely no connections to people belonging to modern Freemasonry.

I think I’ve laid out my reasons I believe true practicing Catholics are NOT allowed to join your group pretty clear in my posts. You may not agree with my reasons but they are based on facts and until the Pope issues a word on your group then Catholics (and Orthodox) should stay away!

 

[John_oxios]

Look, these are serious issues. We have to be very careful here with misuse of the English language.

A Mason or mason is not a Freemason or a Free Mason. There are thousands of masons around the world. Some of them built St Peters at Rome and you still need them to carry out repairs. You should not upset them…

It is crystal clear that the pure and original form of original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry, by its very definition could NOT be included. Utterly impossible.

If you think that it should be, then that is a different matter. If so, perhaps you would be kind enough to say why?

In terms of what The Grand Lodge of All England is, what it does, and what it means,** it is totally impossible to be included in the ban.** The ban has clear reasons and a clear description of what is banned. We, the Grand Lodge of All England is not included.

Hi PeterC,
How about the serious mis-use of Scripture? Wasn’t it you who stated words don’t change, in our discussion of yesteryears use of the term ‘myth’?

Bottom line, If you refuse to believe in the authority of the Pope, The RCC? Practicing Catholics will refuse to believe that’ freemasons,’ ‘FRee Masons,’ ‘Free masonries’ rules, regulations, laws haven’t changed, whatever, whoever you say you are.

I have a buddy, a devout Catholic, single, never been married, age forty… there’s a local Protestant church in Suffolk cty. called the 'Upper Room, a huge faciliry which puts on some serious plays time to time… Frank got invited and went, they grabbed him, tried to sell them their religion, he wouldn’t budge, but they had a hook, they told him they run dance’s once a month, and to come down and literally said, “Check out their women.” Frank called me and wanted to go, isaid Frank, that’s their hook they got you’re attention, but do you really think those gals once you get interested, are not going to sell you their religion? He nor I never went to their dance’s.

Your Hook? Seems to be, its okay, we are not whom we seem to be!

I won’t buy that! Why associate with an organization, however you spell it, knowing what it stands for, and try to claim it is not like those others???

God bless,
john

 

[John_oxios]

Look, these are serious issues. We have to be very careful here with misuse of the English language.

A Mason or mason is not a Freemason or a Free Mason. There are thousands of masons around the world. Some of them built St Peters at Rome and you still need them to carry out repairs. You should not upset them…

It is crystal clear that the pure and original form of original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry, by its very definition could NOT be included. Utterly impossible.

If you think that it should be, then that is a different matter. If so, perhaps you would be kind enough to say why?

In terms of what The Grand Lodge of All England is, what it does, and what it means,** it is totally impossible to be included in the ban.** The ban has clear reasons and a clear description of what is banned. We, the Grand Lodge of All England is not included.

Hi PeterC,
How about the serious mis-use of Scripture? Wasn’t it you who stated words don’t change, in our discussion of yesteryears use of the term ‘myth’?

Bottom line, If you refuse to believe in the authority of the Pope, The RCC? Practicing Catholics will refuse to believe that’ freemasons,’ ‘FRee Masons,’ ‘Free masonries’ rules, regulations, laws haven’t changed, whatever, whoever you say you are.

I have a buddy, a devout Catholic, single, never been married, age forty… there’s a local Protestant church in Suffolk cty. called the 'Upper Room, a huge faciliry which puts on some serious plays time to time… Frank got invited and went, they grabbed him, tried to sell them their religion, he wouldn’t budge, but they had a hook, they told him they run dance’s once a month, and to come down and literally said, “Check out their women.” Frank called me and wanted to go, isaid Frank, that’s their hook they got you’re attention, but do you really think those gals once you get interested, are not going to sell you their religion? He nor I never went to their dance’s.

Your Hook? Seems to be, its okay, we are not whom we seem to be!

I won’t buy that! Why associate with an organization, however you spell it, knowing what it stands for, and try to claim it is not like those others???

God bless,
john

 

[PeterClatworthy]

We accept the authority of the Pope, for Romans Catholics,

I have already dealt with the question of the fundamental difference between pure and original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie (constituted AD926) and the self-created assembly of the Moderns, The Grand Lodge of London (constituted 1723), “a product of the Enlightenment”.

If it was not different, then it would not have needed a new constitution.

 

[flameburns623]

My understanding is that the reason that Freemasonry in any form is objectionable is that the rituals of the movement:

1. Imply religious indifferentism–that all religious systems lead equally to God;
2. Imply in places that membership in Freemasonry, or doing the good works of a Freemason, in some way are meritorious for salvation;
3. Require memberts to take blood-oaths which are in the first place not taken for a morally serious reason, and which in the second place cast serious aspersion on the goodness and holiness of God by the very shocking and graphic nature of the oaths.
4. In addition, Freemasonry has a longstanding history of un-Christian gender-separation and (in it’s American variants) of racial segregationism.

These problems are apart from the issues raised by ‘Continental’ or ‘Grand Orient’ variants of Masonry, which tend to be anti-clerical and sometimes militantly anti-religious in addition.

Freemasons themselves deny that the three problems I underscored above are genuinely intended by the ritual. They insist they have dully addressed the issues of sexism and racism.

However, the Catholic Church and other organizations have looked closely at the issues involved, and determined for their own members that the spiritual dangers of Masonry are too great. Therefore, Freemasonry is proscribed for Roman Catholics.

Some quasi-Masonic organizations exist, such as the Odd-Fellows, Moose and Elk lodges, and so forth. These organizations are not expressly proscribed by the RCC and it tends to be left to the informed consciences of Catholics themselves whether or not they may be members in good conscience. Prior to the 1960’s, few Catholics were attracted to such fraternities; in the more-ecumenical culture since Vatican II, there have been fewer reservations against membership in such groups.

If Peter Clatworthy has re-imagined the Masonic ritual in such a way that his ‘Free Masonrie’ avoids all of the issues of classic British and/or Continental Freemasonry–it is possible his organization would fall outside the proscriptions of the Catholic Church. Nonetheless, one might well be guilty of scandal and of an ‘appearance of evil’, for which reason I for one would be reluctant to associate myself with the so-called ‘Order of Free Masonrie’.

 

[John_oxios]

We accept the authority of the Pope, for Romans Catholics,

I have already dealt with the question of the fundamental difference between pure and original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie (constituted AD926) and the self-created assembly of the Moderns, The Grand Lodge of London (constituted 1723), “a product of the Enlightenment”.

If it was not different, then it would not have needed a new constitution.

Helllo Peter C,
Actually we’re still dealing with what you call the 'fundamental difference’s, we don’t se any fundamental difference.

Its not a question for you to accept that Roman Catholics accept the authority of the Pope, :tiphat: thank you very much!!! But as you call yourselves Catholic to accept it, which as you call yourself a priest of the Order of Celi De, will not.

There are 22 Catholic Church’s some of whom may not accept him as a Church Leader (as in adminstrative), but respect his authority as a Spiritual leader, (i.e. Byzantine Catholic Church for one)

In this Country of ‘religious freedom,’ although it was well known that Catholics accepted the authority of the pope, before Pres. Kennedy, in this country, because Catholics accept and believe in the Authority of the Pope it became a reason not to allow or keep them from entering public office, this whole country is Pope 'ophobic. The oldest bias in the US of A is anti Catholicism.
So my question to you do you in your fremasonrie, have Catholics in your higher degree? has any been Catholic?
2nd show me RCC documentation saying its Okay, to join your sect/fraternal org. because you are different from all the other known masons. Real References, no stained glass pics please.

As far as product of the enlightenment? That would be revelation of God through His Church, founded by Christ, through His apostles and the Roman Catholic Church.

God bless,
John

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Helllo Peter C,
Actually we’re still dealing with what you call the 'fundamental difference’s, we don’t se any fundamental difference.

Take the blindfold off and the earplugs out and you will stand a chance.

bigot: obstinate believer who is intolerant of others.* (SOURCE: Oxford English Dictionary)*

 

[workingman]

Take the blindfold off and the earplugs out and you will stand a chance.

bigot: obstinate believer who is intolerant of others.* (SOURCE: Oxford English Dictionary)*

PeterC, Let me say it since you did it. Quit cherry picking and answer the question. I have also asked for the same documentation and time and again you do not provide it. So where is it?

 

[graceandglory]

Catholics cannot be Masons.** It is forbidden and has canonical consequences that bar the Catholic from the Sacraments until they renounce their association with the Masons.**

But I have a friend who is a Mason, and a reader and an EMHC. She has her Mason sticker prominently on the back of her car.

 

[John_oxios]

Take the blindfold off and the earplugs out and you will stand a chance.

bigot: obstinate believer who is intolerant of others.* (SOURCE: Oxford English Dictionary)*

  Al the discrepancies are on your side of the fence, you keep telling us what  Free masons isn't, instead of telling us what free masons is , you keep telling us what The RC Chruch says is O-kay, with no reference's?  Pope syas have nothing to do with such organizations.. you say Oh he didn't mean that!!

I base my beliefs on Faith in Christ and His RC Church, through apostolic succession of Peter. You want us to believe that we ought to or need to learn your Gnostic Principles based on the mysticism of a pre Davidic era?? What? The secrets of the pentagram? The four points represent the four elements Earth wind, fire, water and the fifth the Holy Spirit with God in the center and a few other secret words in between?? There’s a group around here of witch’s and warlocks who will tell you the same thing I can’t think of their name off hand… they believe they’re preaching the truth also !!!

In later days the five ponts can represent the five wounds of Christ…

I am firm in my faith in the RCC, because that is where the Holy Spirit led me, after yrs. of not wanting to be RC. I really don’t need anything else.

C’mon enlighten us to the super secrets of your mumbo jumbo words and rituals, tell us what its rally about… chance’s are your so called ‘secrets’ can be found in any book store.

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Take the blindfold off and the earplugs out and you will stand a chance.

bigot: obstinate believer who is intolerant of others.* (SOURCE: Oxford English Dictionary)*

 Bigot? Why?  Because I refuse jump in and join your free masonrie rhetoric?

Getting a little frustrated? are we, Seems to mei’m in pretty good company in this forum, Bible reading Catholics can do that to Protestants,

I don’t know about your Bible but mine says “TEST EVERYTHING”

1Th 5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good,
22 abstain from every form of evil.

Your soothsaying isn’t adding up to any heartfelt truths.

2Cr 11:10 “As the truth of Christ is in me, this boast of mine shall not be silenced”

Bigot:
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

This is a hoot, I have a great understanding of Jehovah Witnesses, and welcome them into my home, I attend Lutheran, baptist, presbyterian, Episcapalian, and Salvation Army Bible studies regularly, They all know My Catholic belief, and I do not interrupt any Study unless they say something untruthful about the RCC. Most of the time they’ll ask first, is it correct John, " that the RCC_____"

Now, contempt is someone who hates something prior to investigation.

We started this in the thread about biblical history… which you deny as historical, even though some three thousand prophecies that were foretold came to be?

then you try to introduce some pre-Davidic truth program, where basically nothing can be found as viable reference’s because there is none!!

Ever hear of the “Liberty Valence effect” Watch the movie, At one point, the guy who got credit for shooting liberty Valance (Jimmy Stewart) confesses to the Bookwriter, “I did not really shoot Liberty Valance” @ that point the writer rips up all his notes, (jimmy Stewart) says hey aren’t you gonna tell my story? The write states, “When the legend becomes fact, print the legend”
All I believe your presenting is the Legend, nothing you’ve given us is based on Facts.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

No, you are a bigot because you refuse to see sense when the essential difference between pure original religious Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie and the Moderns self-started version, “a naturalistic religion” and “a product of the enlightenment” which is a fact of history.

That is simply stubborness borne out of blind prejudice and so you fit the definition to a tee.

"Who will show me the Mother Lodge? Those of London we have discovered to be self-erected in 1716. Ask for their archives. They tell you they were burnt. They have nothing but the wretched sophistication of the Englishman Anderson and the Frenchman Desagulliers. (SOURCE: Freemasonry - Its Pretensions Exposed In Faithful Extracts Of Its Standard Authors, 1828)

Now this event IS a fact of history.