Catholic Church and freemasonary?

[Jerusha]

Although a study of comparative religions is good, and an open mind is good, Masonry carries an open mind too far into useless speculation and strange beliefs, which, in themselves can be cult-like.

That said, Catholicism and Masonry exist in a balance, each influencing the other. That balance, in itself, has some benefits.

 

[John_oxios]

what is this??

…Yes, you are a quasi-Masonic Moderns freemason and your postings here are totally dishonest. The quotations above, and I can provide you with dozens more if you wish, are not my opinions, but the opinions of highly respectable and respected literary and historical sources based upon official record and fact.

I am afraid that your are a typical Moderns who never deals with the issues but indulges in all of the traits highlighted in the quotation from Leon Hyneman.

You are simply an apologist and propagandist for the Moderns system of freemasonry which IS incompatible with the Christian Faith.

Now to make it easy for you, why don’t you take one quotation at a time and refute their arguments. I suspect that, true to form, you will merely make another ad hominem attack.

Hello PeterC,
Have you cracked? Or is Yellow Journalism your new tactic!

I am sorry I don’t follow opinions, I follow the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit. We all know what opinions are like everybody has one?

As far as your lodges go you keep beating a dead horse… I don’t care for them, I have no need for them, ergo whoever or whatever they are, if they are not accepted by the RC Church, I have no reason to even consider joining one.

I have nothing to do with any form of Free Mason lodges, nor do i want to have.

whats this suppose to mean??

After I post this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by John oxios
Again with the name callling? Tilting at windmillls are we??
You are calling me a quasi Catholic, because I don’t accept you’re okay to join your so -called Quasi free Masonrie? After all you resemble free masonry? but your not like those other free Masons?? Now That’s quasi by any definition!!

Take it up the Magisterium, convince them it’s okay ! And then I probably wouldn’t have the time to join your fake (after all your not like them) ‘free masonrie’ anyway, I spend a lot of my spare time @ RC Church. Which is Genuine authentic and real Catholicism!! All we got to give that is truly our own is our time,
God bless, John

You reply with this:

PeterC,
Our Free Masonrie was constituted by Royal Charter in AD926 and enshrined in statute law. Yours was illegally self-started, without a Charter by profane non-Masons in the back of a London drinking establishment in 1717.

We know what quasi means, and we certainly know a regular Free Mason when we see one, and you are not it, and never will be.

Moi a regular fre mason? get your head examined!!

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Post #108

I could share that specific location with you and all the secrets of that rock, if you join my lodge and pay your dues in advance.

God bless,
John

If you are not a Moderns Mason then your repetitive defence on behalf of their anti-Catholic cause, against the pure and original religious form of Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie shames you.

What you are actually saying is that you have trawled Moderns websites and merely repeated their calumnies without the basis of knowledge of the history of Free Masonrie, in an effort to discredit me and our Grand Lodge. Sheer vindictiveness in other words.

Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor: Ninth Commandment

I have said before. You disgust me. May God forgive you. :tsktsk:

 

[John_oxios]

If you are not a Moderns Mason then your repetitive defence on behalf of their anti-Catholic cause, against the pure and original religious form of Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie shames you.

What you are actually saying is that you have trawled Moderns websites and merely repeated their calumnies without the basis of knowledge of the history of Free Masonrie, in an effort to discredit me and our Grand Lodge. Sheer vindictiveness in other words.
I have said before. You disgust me. May God forgive you. :tsktsk:

  Now we're Anglo Saxon free Masonrie?  What happened to Cel' De?

Nice try, but i used a little sarcasm, Bklyn bridge sale, Peter minuet’s rock,
I perused through free mason websites, and yours, because you were not forth coming with anything but whining about the Pope not allowing Catholics in your so -called unique ‘Free Masonrie’ so far the only difference is your want to recruit Catholics, but still ban the Pope on your personal level.

Why go outside Christ’s Church to receive so called Pure and religious form of Free Masonrie…
Like I said get the Vatican to okay your order, otherwise you re asking me to defy My religious and spiritual leader.
God bless,
John

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Now we’re Anglo Saxon free Masonrie? What happened to Cel’ De?

Nice try, but i used a little sarcasm, Bklyn bridge sale, Peter minuet’s rock,
I perused through free mason websites, and yours, because you were not forth coming with anything but whining about the Pope not allowing Catholics in your so -called unique ‘Free Masonrie’ so far the only difference is your want to recruit Catholics, but still ban the Pope on your personal level.

Why go outside Christ’s Church to receive so called Pure and religious form of Free Masonrie…
Like I said get the Vatican to okay your order, otherwise you re asking me to defy My religious and spiritual leader.
God bless,
John

“From a Masonic document now in my possession, I can prove that no very long time ago the Culdees of York were Freemasons, that they constituted the Grand Lodge of England, and that they held their meetings in the Crypt under the great Cathedral of that city. The circular chapter-house did very well for ordinary business, but the Secret Mysteries were carried on in the crypts. The Lodge, which was the Grand Lodge of All England, had been held under the Cathedral in the Crypt at York.” (SOURCE: p.718, Anacalypsis Vol. 1, Godfrey Higgins: 1833-1836.)

The Culdees of York were among the guardians of the Masonic tradition in the tenth century, and the Old Charges tell us that an assembly of Masons was held at York during the reign of King Athelstan, when a reorganization of the Craft took place. (SOURCE: A New Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry (Ars Magna Latomorum) and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: Their Rites, Literature, and History, Arthur Edward Waite: 1921)

"Culdees are recorded in church documents as officiating at St Peter in York until AD 939. According to the same church authorities, the Canons of York were called “Culdees” as late as the reign of Henry II (AD 1133-1189) (SOURCE: The Traditions of Glastonbury by E. Raymond, Capt, MA, AIA, FSA Scot.)

I am not asking you to do anything. The Pope does allow Catholics to be Fellows of The Grand Lodge at York. That is where we disagree. Get him to send me an email confirming that he doesn’t, and with his reasons.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

You are correct insofar as the Moderns system of freemasonry (we call them the revisionists) is concerned, but entirely wrong in respect of the Free Masons of The Grand Lodge at York.

Now, please specify what you consider to be “tosh”. A blanket personal, anonyous, unsupported opinion has little or no value to anybody.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

I have told you. We are Not the freemasonry that is condemned by Rome. We are the original religious form of Freemasonry actively supported by the Vatican.

"In the 12th century the Roman Catholic Church began to take a real interest in Ireland. Therefore, that Celtic Church in Ireland was not of Papal origin. Patrick (sic St Patrick) had endeavoured to convert pagan Judaistic Ireland before even the Roman Catholic Church had taken hold on the people. Dr. O’Donovan, upon the Four Masters, states in fact that, “Nothing is clearer than that Patrick engrafted Christianity on the pagan superstitions with so much skill that he won the people over to the Christian religion before they understood the exact difference between the two systems of beliefs; and much of this half pagan, half Christian religion will be found, not only in the Irish stories of the Middle Ages, but in the superstitions of the peasanrty of the present day.”

Finally, according to O’Driscoll, the Christian Church in Ireland as founded by St. Patrick, existed for many centuries free and unshackled and differed in many points from Rome. From the days of Patrick to King Henry’s Council of Cashel in 1172 was a bright and glorious career for Ireland. The ancient Celtic unfettered church was made bondage to the Papal throne from then on." * (SOURCE: Patrick, the Druids, and the Celtic Church)*

Not just my opinion, history. Celtic Christianity, free from Rome, was the religion of Ireland for 600 years before Rome even took a real interest in it.

Your opinion is historically incorrect, no matter how inconvenient. Bigotry is not history and no true Irishman would airbrush his own history out of existence.

 

[brigantine]

I have told you. We are Not the freemasonry that is condemned by Rome. We are the original religious form of Freemasonry actively supported by the Vatican.

I have stayed out of this because I made my points and you were unable prove yours but this statement is BS and you know it! Show were the Pope actively supported your supposed different form of Freemasonry! Thank you!

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Please stop falsely conflating the Freemasonry of the Moderns with our Ancient religious Free Masonrie. Repeating it does not make it true or have any effect upon us. The word “freemasonry” is just that, a word.

Papal utterances in respect of Freemasonry:

Clement XII Apr 28 1738 In Eminenti; Benedict XIV May 18 1751 Providas; Pius VII Sep 13 1821 Ecclesiam; Leo XII Mar 13 1825 Quo Graviora; Pius VIII May 21 1829 Traditi Humilitati; Pius VIII Mar 25 1830 † Litteris altero; Gregory XVI Aug 15 1832 Mirari Vos e.; IX Nov 9 1846 ‡ Qui Pluribus e.; Pius IX Apr 20 1849 Quibus Quantisque Malis a.; Pius IX Dec 8 1864 ‡ Quanta Cura e. Syllabus of Errors: Pius IX Sep 25 1865 Inter Multiplices a.: Pius IX Oct 12 1869 ‡ Apostolicae Sedis c.: Pius IX Nov 21 1873 ? Etsi Multa e.: Leo XIII Jun 29 1881 †‡ Diuturnum: Leo XIII Feb 15 1882 ‡ Etsi Nos e.: Leo XIII Mar 20 1884 Humanum Genus e.: Leo XIII Dec 22 1887 † Officio sanctissimo: Leo XIII Oct 15 1890 Dall’alto Dell’apostolico Seggio e.: Leo XIII Dec 8 1892 † Custodi di quella fede: Leo XIII Dec 8 1892 † Inimica vis: Leo XIII Jun 20 1894 Praeclara: Leo XIII Mar 18 1902 Annum Ingressi: Paul VI Nov 21 1964 ‡ Unitatis redintegratio: Paul VI Oct 28 1965 ‡ Nostra Aetate

The first one was not issued until 1738. Why? What was going on in the previous 800 years?

They are ALL post-Moderns and directed specifically at the Moderns system. If not true, then name one of earlier date.

Some Grand Masters of The Grand Lodge at York pre-1717:

960 - St Dunstan, Archbishop of Canterbury; 1040 - St Edward the Confessor, King Edward I; 1077 - Gundulf, Archbishop of Canterbury, Bishop of Rochester; 1199 - Peter de Colchurch , a Norman priest-architect appointed by King Richard I to rebuild London in stone; 1216 - Peter de Rupibus, Bishop of Winchester; 1272 - Gauthier Giffard (Walter Gifford), Archbishop of York; 1307 - Gauthier or Walter Stapleton, Bishop of Exeter; 1353 - William of Wykeham, Bishop of Winchester; 1376 - Simon de Langham (c.1310-1376) Prelate, Statesman, Cardinal, Archbishop of Canterbury; 1413 - Henry Chicheley (1363-1443) Archbishop of Canterbury, Ecclesiastical Doctor of Laws; 1446 - William Waynflete (1395-1486), Bishop of Winchester; 1471 - Richard de Beauchamp, Bishop of Hereford; 1492 - John Islip (1464-1532) was Abbot of Westminster from 1500 until his death in 1532; 1509 - Cardinal Thomas Wolsey; 1551 - John Poynet (C.1514-1556) Bishop of Winchester, Bishop of Rochester.

Now you pop along to the Vatican library, and check your facts pre-1813 which is the date when the Roman Catholic Duke of Wharton lost his fight to regain control of Free Masomrie on behalf of Rome to the Hanoverian Protestant Crowns of Europe.

We are fed up being the meat in the sandwich of your “cat fight” with the Moderns. Our free Masons had their properties confiscated; their titles and estates sequestered; they were imprisoned; exiled, and executed for their Catholic Faith and you abandon them so easily.

Fair weather friends.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Oh no I am not. My name is Peter Clatworthy. I am the Grand Secretary of The Grand Lodge of All England at York. I am a Christian Priest in Holy Orders.

Our address, my telephone number, and my email addres are all on our website.

And this matter will never be closed. It has not been closed for the last 1200 years. I doubt that you have the ability to close it, except to silence any opposition on this forum out of fear for the truth.

You ask His Holiness to make a statement about SPECIFICALLY our Grand Lodge with his reasons. Until he does the status quo pertains. Roman Catholics are permitted to become members of our Grand Lodge and to continue to receive the Holy Sacraments, which they will.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

NO we are not. You have not established that because you have not answered MY submissions or questions. Only opinions. The status quo remains.

The Johannine Celtic Christian Church does have apostolic succession. That is another thread. And we will never agree on that one will we?

Tiny group? What do you know? Oh, you don’t know. We are a world-wide faith.

At odds. WHY? You have not given me ONE reason.

I am a proud Irishman, but even so I do not approve of racism. Shame on you.

History is a matter of academc record. It should be reported, and not invented to suit you.

Are you actually saying that Catholics are not allowed to worship God anywhere other than in a catholic Church? That is the implication. Quite shocking. Its a good job that the Grand Lodge meets in the Crypt at the York Minster really, isn’t it?

 

[PeterClatworthy]

How do you know? Free Masonrie does not publish its membership.

We do not tell you that at all.

That is how you feel but that is yet another issue where we will disagree.

You still have not answered my question. That is because you are frightened of what you might find if you answered it.

You stay in your cosy bubble where you do not have to justify anything. Whatever you do, don’t allow history, or fact bother you.

 

[gamewell45]

Please stop falsely conflating the Freemasonry of the Moderns with our Ancient religious Free Masonrie. Repeating it does not make it true or have any effect upon us. The word “freemasonry” is just that, a word.

Papal utterances in respect of Freemasonry:

Clement XII Apr 28 1738 In Eminenti; Benedict XIV May 18 1751 Providas; Pius VII Sep 13 1821 Ecclesiam; Leo XII Mar 13 1825 Quo Graviora; Pius VIII May 21 1829 Traditi Humilitati; Pius VIII Mar 25 1830 † Litteris altero; Gregory XVI Aug 15 1832 Mirari Vos e.; IX Nov 9 1846 ‡ Qui Pluribus e.; Pius IX Apr 20 1849 Quibus Quantisque Malis a.; Pius IX Dec 8 1864 ‡ Quanta Cura e. Syllabus of Errors: Pius IX Sep 25 1865 Inter Multiplices a.: Pius IX Oct 12 1869 ‡ Apostolicae Sedis c.: Pius IX Nov 21 1873 ? Etsi Multa e.: Leo XIII Jun 29 1881 †‡ Diuturnum: Leo XIII Feb 15 1882 ‡ Etsi Nos e.: Leo XIII Mar 20 1884 Humanum Genus e.: Leo XIII Dec 22 1887 † Officio sanctissimo: Leo XIII Oct 15 1890 Dall’alto Dell’apostolico Seggio e.: Leo XIII Dec 8 1892 † Custodi di quella fede: Leo XIII Dec 8 1892 † Inimica vis: Leo XIII Jun 20 1894 Praeclara: Leo XIII Mar 18 1902 Annum Ingressi: Paul VI Nov 21 1964 ‡ Unitatis redintegratio: Paul VI Oct 28 1965 ‡ Nostra Aetate

The first one was not issued until 1738. Why? What was going on in the previous 800 years?

They are ALL post-Moderns and directed specifically at the Moderns system. If not true, then name one of earlier date.

Some Grand Masters of The Grand Lodge at York pre-1717:

960 - St Dunstan, Archbishop of Canterbury; 1040 - St Edward the Confessor, King Edward I; 1077 - Gundulf, Archbishop of Canterbury, Bishop of Rochester; 1199 - Peter de Colchurch , a Norman priest-architect appointed by King Richard I to rebuild London in stone; 1216 - Peter de Rupibus, Bishop of Winchester; 1272 - Gauthier Giffard (Walter Gifford), Archbishop of York; 1307 - Gauthier or Walter Stapleton, Bishop of Exeter; 1353 - William of Wykeham, Bishop of Winchester; 1376 - Simon de Langham (c.1310-1376) Prelate, Statesman, Cardinal, Archbishop of Canterbury; 1413 - Henry Chicheley (1363-1443) Archbishop of Canterbury, Ecclesiastical Doctor of Laws; 1446 - William Waynflete (1395-1486), Bishop of Winchester; 1471 - Richard de Beauchamp, Bishop of Hereford; 1492 - John Islip (1464-1532) was Abbot of Westminster from 1500 until his death in 1532; 1509 - Cardinal Thomas Wolsey; 1551 - John Poynet (C.1514-1556) Bishop of Winchester, Bishop of Rochester.

Now you pop along to the Vatican library, and check your facts pre-1813 which is the date when the Roman Catholic Duke of Wharton lost his fight to regain control of Free Masomrie on behalf of Rome to the Hanoverian Protestant Crowns of Europe.

We are fed up being the meat in the sandwich of your “cat fight” with the Moderns. Our free Masons had their properties confiscated; their titles and estates sequestered; they were imprisoned; exiled, and executed for their Catholic Faith and you abandon them so easily.

Fair weather friends.

Peter,

Your not going to brainwash these people with your brand of “masonrie” no matter how hard you try. Lets save some valuable bandwidth here; give it a rest. As a suggestion, devote your time to other worthy causes wherever it is your from.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

I am not brainwashing anyone. Why you people bother being on a discussion forum baffles me. You are nor prepared to discuss anything unless everybody agrees with what the Pope tells you on everything.

Why don’t you just cut and paste Papal Encyclicals and save your energy?

Do you ever think for yourselves?

I notice you didn’t deal with the issue - again. What happened pre-1738?

Don’t you find life exceedingly boring?

 

[brigantine]

I am not brainwashing anyone. Why you people bother being on a discussion forum baffles me. You are nor prepared to discuss anything unless everybody agrees with what the Pope tells you on everything.

It is you who does not answer questions. Just cut in paste responses. You are the person coming here selling your bill of goods yet you want Catholics to produce a letter from the Pope condemning your particular group of freemasonry. Its not up to them to produce anything its up to you to produce a letter from the Pope saying your group is good to go! Do it or stop bothering arguing mute points.

You still have yet to answer my post asking you why you had so called moderns listed on your site!

Ok but why have them there at all? You strongly protest being associated with the “Moderns” (Ed’s group) yet list many of their member their. This would be like my Church the OCA listing some schismatics on there website with a disclaimer on the bottom. Does this make any sense?

You spend a ton of time and energy protesting being group with these “moderns” yet are all to happy to try and use there famous members. Why is that?

Until you start producing some proof and some letters from Vatican or Orthodox Leadership then there is no point of having further discussions with you.

 

[brigantine]

That would be funny! I’ve been trying to get Peter to realize he needs to provide the proof but have had little luck with that.

I’m not sure sure what early Irish (I’m Irish/Italian) Church life was like and how much Orthodoxy had an influence on it but I do know a little about Irish/Celtic Monasticism. The Irish form of early Monasticism had a good deal of Egyptian Desert influence on it. Irish Monasticism differed for a long time from other Western form of Monasticism. I’m not sure when this died out or changed but it did at some point. Like I said I’m not sure what normal Church life was like but I would assume it was more Western in its orientation. I think they used the Sarum Rite if I’m not mistaken which is Western?

I think what Peter is trying to get is the Irish Church was influenced more by the Druids than either the Western or Easter halves of Christianity. The Druids left no written records so its really hard to say what influence, I’m sure there was some, took place. Peter is overplaying this with his free masionrie group though.

 

[workingman]

I see Peter is still rambling on with miniscule points. Show us what we all would love to see Peter. Show us the letter from the Pope or a Patriach that allows membership in your version of “Christian Freemasonry”. Where is the letter? This is what is being asked for so produce one. Sow Me The Letter!!!

 

[PeterClatworthy]

I know the rules and you use them whenever anyone disagrees with you. We are NOT anti-Catholic. What we are saying is that our Free Masonrie is specifically excluded from the Catholic ban for the reasons given. I cannot demand a letter from the Pope. You can. So get on and do it.

Now that is the status quo. It is well within the rules of this forum.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This pre-1717 painting, complete with its Masonic All Seeing Eye may be found at the Vatican. Photographed in 2006.

Now you have a choice. You can deal with the issues and stand your corner, or you can retreat in ignorance by silencing truth based upon evidence.

Your choice. It makes absolutely no difference to me or us. I am here to provide YOU with accurate information and that is all.

I say again we are fed up being the meat in the sandwich of your cat fight with the Moderns. That is your problem, not ours.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Thank you for this posting, it contains a certain amount of truth, but from a Catholic point of view. It ignores the nature of the Masonic Priesthood that has enjoyed continuous existence for many hundreds of years.

"This church and the civilization introduced by the Romans were swept away by the Picts and Saxons, and the members, called Culdees, were compelled to hide in the wilderness of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and the small islands between Great Britain and Ireland; chiefly in Anglesey and Iona, where they preserved their Apostolic institutions, which were modeled after the most ancient Christian church, which, it is well known, was** the secret or Masonic form**. (SOURCE: The Mysteries of Britain: Secret Rites and Traditions of Ancient Britain Restored: 1905)

What you do not know about you should not comment upon. Leave it to those of us who are Free Masons and who do know our history. We have a substantial membership in Northern Ireland and Eire. I was in Dublin just two weeks ago for a visit.

"Without freedom of will there is no humanity; freedom of conscience was both the birth and the breath of manhood; the essence of the soul was will. (SOURCE: Pelagius, Bishop of Bangor on Dee, c. AD 390)

 

[PeterClatworthy]

I still have not received an answer to my question. Why was Freemasonry never mentioned, let alone banned, prior to 1738?

It is no coincidence that this coincided EXACTLY with the publication of Dr Anderson’s second Book of Constitutions which de-Christianised the Moderns system of Freemasonry confirming Hanoverian (Protestant) control over English Freemasonry, against the political interests of the Roman Catholic Church.