Catholic Church and medicinal marajuana?

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Dan_Grelinger said:
I agree with much of what you have written. Proof in these types of sciences is very hard to come by. From the rest of your post, it would appear that you reasonably accept a cause/effect relationship between any marijuana use and reduced driving performance (short term effect).
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Actually, in science it is impossible to prove anything. I’m not sure that I accept that any marijuana use would reduce driving performance. That’s only because I still don’t know exactly how much marijuana would cause problems. In the research several subjects were removed because there was no measurable THC in their serum; I’m assuming they did smoke the marijuana given to them. That confuses me and I don’t know if it’s the testing methods, sloppiness, or what. I do find it hard to believe that any subject in the study would have refused free, government-supplied marijuana.
Increased samples sizes only serve to further reduce uncertainty. Uncertainty is never eliminated. If you are a student of statistics, then you know that sample sizes alone do not determine uncertainty. The amount of variation in the observed results have a significant influence as well. This study was not so complete as to provide statistical uncertainties. Given all that, a reasonable person would likely conclude that; proof? no. Strong indication? yes.
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Increased sample sizes tend to reduce confounding variables. For example, if I have an n of 20, the chance of an unrecognized factor being in some of them is much greater than if I have an *n *of 2000. Taking subjects randomly, if n=20, then there is a higher probability that 14 of them are male compared to a project where n=2000. If 14 subjects in my study are male how do I know if my obtained results are from whatever I am studying or from my subjects being male? It leads to more confounding factors, which is a headache for researchers. At least that is what was pounded into my brain when I was learning this stuff.

I agree that uncertainty is never eliminated (I’m fighting with someone on another thread on that very issue). Never. And you are right that sample size is not the only factor. The two posts I wrote took me about two hours to write. They’re simplified because I didn’t want to spend a week or so really teasing apart all the variables. I just can’t do that anymore.

If you’re saying there’s a strong indication that ingestion of marijuana increases impairment based solely on this study, I would have to say “no.” Taking the studies I’ve read as a whole (and I’ve barely made a dent) I would say “yes.” I wouldn’t want to take the chance anyway. If no THC was found in the serum of some subjects in these studies, it’s an indication that people vary in their ability to metabolize it. I might be extra-sensitive. I would never use MM and drive. Never.
I’m still missing your point of the health of the subjects. In most substance effect studies, poor health tends to exacerbate the substance induced effect. If you suggest that marijuana induced driving impairment would have been even more pronounced in unhealthy subjects (supposed relationship to medical marijuana use), then I would agree. But it would seem a far reach to suggest that unhealthy subjects would respond less significantly to substance effects than healthy subjects.
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My point is that by using healthy subjects it lessens the applicability of the obtained results to those who will most likely use MM. I agree with you - patients in chronic pain are probably not driving as well as healthy individuals anyway. So it may be that the combination of their pain and ingestion of marijuana would be correlated with significantly more impairment in their driving. I haven’t read any research on this.

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Did the document indicate that the subjects were alone in the car during these tests? If so, I see your point. If an observer was in the vehicle, then your point is lost on me. Thousands of inexerienced student drivers are on our roads every day, but we pretty readily accept that risk, as long as an instructor (or mentoring adult) is in the car with them. If conducted in this way, I would suggest that this study would have been no more dangerous than allowing supervised student drivers on our public roads.
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That is a good question! I don’t know for sure but I think they were alone. I didn’t get real deep into the methodology because of time constraints but limited myself mostly to the abstract, results, and discussion. That thought never entered my mind! That would make for an interesting study, though, and add another factor which would be taken into consideration. Hmmm…I wonder if a person who smoked marijuana would have less driving impairment just because another person is in the car? Now you’ve got me thinking! I wonder if a person who *hasn’t *smoked marijuana drives with more skill when another person is in the car? Now I’m going to think about this all night…I still have problems with any researcher conducting his/her study in high-density traffic. That’s what bothered me the most. It’s like playing with fire. I wouldn’t have risked it. Besides, don’t the cars that have student drivers have two steering wheels in them and big letters stating “Student Driver”? They did when I learned to drive. Maybe they don’t anymore. What if a child ran out into the street? A person who may possibly be impaired (and the researchers wouldn’t know that until the study was done) might have a significantly slower reaction time. What about the liability? On the one hand it puts the subjects into a realistic setting (which would solve a lot of problems), but on the other hand I can just see some little kid running out into the street after a dog or something…That scares me.
Cheers,
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Dan Grelinger
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Cheers right back atcha! 🙂 Thank you. This has been a stimulating discussion. I haven’t been able to do research for so long and it kind of made me feel like I had come home. It made me think. For the first time in many years I haven’t felt stupid from the opiates.
Thank you. God bless! 🙂
 
Hi to everyone. I’m making a general announcement in the threads I am participating in. My health has deteriorated to the point where I can no longer participate in the forums.

I apologize for leaving any questions asked of me and points presented to me unanswered.

I do have one request: Please pray for the safety of all unborn children.

Thanks, guys. It’s been wonderful being here and I’ve enjoyed it, learned much, and my faith has been strengthened.

May God bring us all peace…

christina
 
I am so happy I came back to this thread after a while away. I have been praying for all those needlessly suffering on this forum that are ill and that I know could be helped with MM (education, like everything in life is the key – not the barrier). I have also been praying for those of you still who have not seen the light on Gods greatest gift to us – Cannabis for so many applications – medicine, clothing, food, fuel, paper, and so on and so on – look up hemp ecology and spend your day researching how this one single plant could replace nearly every pharmaceutical company, chemical company – and your need to buy their, for the most part, poisons (Read recent time, Newsweek, wired, and many other periodical for recent research.) I thank them for their true and sincere efforts to help mankind – and I would like to request an apology for the lies concerning the plant – read articles circa 1936/37 concerning two articles coming out informing the America that Hemp would be our first BILLION dollar crop – this was in the 30’s.
It can be used in over 90,000 products to eat, wear, build houses with (you mix the inner core of the plant and it is mixed with lime and water to create a mineral that is a lot like cement – but better in so many ways. It replaces about 4-5 layers on your typical building. Look up HempCrete and the other products like it.)
Why would such a wonderful plant from God be prohibited? So many reasons – here are a few:
  1. The Tax act of 37 was based on, for a complete majority, information provided by William Randolph Hearst – a newspaper man trying to protect his timber interests used by his printing presses. It also was heavily influenced by DuPont who had just figured out how to make plastics from coal and oil. This created nylon and nearly everything else we have that is light. (You can also make plastic from hemp – Henry Ford built some of his first cars from hemp plastic. MBenz is using some in their new cars, over 40pounds.)
  2. It paved the way for thousands upon thousands of Rx meds that for a most part are not needed. Whats not needed? Pretty much everything from chemo, radiation, diabetic medication, cholesterol meds and so on. I have personal experience with some of them – and know others that cover the rest – the DEA and FDA have an “I can’t if you won’t let me” and vice versa relationship that WILL NOT ALLOW HUMAN TRIALS. Though totally unnecessary – it’s a totally non-toxic plant given to us by GOD – proven not in the lab – but over thousands of years and not one poisoning from the plant alone. And the testing the have very recently done using cancer cells injected in mice/rats that the anti-mutagen properties of Cannabis allow it to selectively attack mutated cells – leaving healthy cells next to it alone – does that sound better than CHEMO?
  3. If you believe the bible at all – we are in end times. Likely complete proof from the word of GOD:
    a. Genesis 1:11 And God said “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding……
    b. Genesis 1:12 - ……saw that it was GOOD. (all of a sudden NOT good? Man told us this, and who would give such a man such power on earth to say something GOD said was good was bad? Satan?)
    c. Genesis – 1”29 And God said “Behold, I have given you EVERY HERB BEARING SEED….shall be for MEAT”
    d. And now for the fun stuff….1 Timothy 4 – Now the Spirit speaketh EXPRESSLY, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of DEVILS; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience SEARED with a hot iron; forbidding to marry (???); and COMMANDING to abstain from MEATS, which GOD hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which BELIEVE and know the TRUTH. For every creation of God is good and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: for it is SANCTIFIED by the word of GOD
    Sooooo….when in doubt – check the BIBLE – not the DEA, FDA, DuPont, CNN, Fox, Shell – no one cares about a fix for everything – except for those below the cap of the pyramid! I assume that includes most of us here right? This is a People issues if you live on Earth.
    Watch “Run from the Cure” on YouTube by Rick Simpson from Canada – it will show you just how disgusting this battle really is – they tried as hard as they could to tell Canada and the world that they can CURE cancer with Hemp/Cannabis oil – ingested just like food. Watch to see what happened.
    I would wholeheartedly encourage each and every one of you to pray on this. We are not just talking about MM here – this is the “fix”. Unless we can’t fix it because Satan and his minions that rule us unjustly won’t let it happen. They sure won’t fix this for us. We have to know for a FACT what the facts are – and make sure we are not just regurgitating a totally false position. This topic may, might, just maybe, will require you to not 100% trust your government – I know I know – it will be hard at first but you will get used to it after a few hours of research.
    May the anointed one be with you (yeah, it’s in the original translations of the anointing oil recipe given to Moses from God. Does that mean we have all been falsely anointed and that if Jesus was the anointed one that he would have received this fire baptism from John to get the Holy Spirit?)
 
LittleSoldier said:
Actually, in science it is impossible to prove anything. I’m not sure that I accept that any marijuana use would reduce driving performance. That’s only because I still don’t know exactly how much marijuana would cause problems. In the research several subjects were removed because there was no measurable THC in their serum; I’m assuming they did smoke the marijuana given to them. That confuses me and I don’t know if it’s the testing methods, sloppiness, or what. I do find it hard to believe that any subject in the study would have refused free, government-supplied marijuana.

Increased sample sizes tend to reduce confounding variables. For example, if I have an n of 20, the chance of an unrecognized factor being in some of them is much greater than if I have an *n *of 2000. Taking subjects randomly, if n=20, then there is a higher probability that 14 of them are male compared to a project where n=2000. If 14 subjects in my study are male how do I know if my obtained results are from whatever I am studying or from my subjects being male? It leads to more confounding factors, which is a headache for researchers. At least that is what was pounded into my brain when I was learning this stuff.

I agree that uncertainty is never eliminated (I’m fighting with someone on another thread on that very issue). Never. And you are right that sample size is not the only factor. The two posts I wrote took me about two hours to write. They’re simplified because I didn’t want to spend a week or so really teasing apart all the variables. I just can’t do that anymore.

If you’re saying there’s a strong indication that ingestion of marijuana increases impairment based solely on this study, I would have to say “no.” Taking the studies I’ve read as a whole (and I’ve barely made a dent) I would say “yes.” I wouldn’t want to take the chance anyway. If no THC was found in the serum of some subjects in these studies, it’s an indication that people vary in their ability to metabolize it. I might be extra-sensitive. I would never use MM and drive. Never.

My point is that by using healthy subjects it lessens the applicability of the obtained results to those who will most likely use MM. I agree with you - patients in chronic pain are probably not driving as well as healthy individuals anyway. So it may be that the combination of their pain and ingestion of marijuana would be correlated with significantly more impairment in their driving. I haven’t read any research on this.

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“impossible to prove anything”? Will people stop posting that nonsense?

There’s the Sun. Right there!

See this ball? Every time I let go, it falls to the ground. Every time. I think this gravity idea has some merit.

Sheesh.

God bless,
Ed
 
so what about cigarettes, they kill you fast than pot, why are they legal?
 
OraLabora said:
It may help to steer this discussion to know that not all physicians agree that medicinal marijuana is necessary or desirable.

Many eminent physicians believe that proper use of existing legal pain control drugs are sufficient, and that the issue is insufficient training into their use.
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Eminent beliefs can easily be bought. There is little profit for “eminent” physicians to prescribe or recommend a common plant.

.
 
edwest2 said:
“impossible to prove anything”? Will people stop posting that nonsense?
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Ed, I would appreciate it very much if you would discontinue your practice of taking my words out of context, twisting and mangling them, in order to fit them into your own agenda.

You cut out part of my sentence which resulted in the meaning being changed. Don’t you *ever dare *do that to me again!
There’s the Sun. Right there!
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See this ball? Every time I let go, it falls to the ground. Every time. I think this gravity idea has some merit.
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No, Ed, I don’t see your ball. I wonder if you even have a ball. In fact, I don’t see you. All I see are words on a computer screen.

I suggest you take your ball (if you really have one) and go back to playing bounce-bounce, educate yourself on scientific method, and then return when you are capable of participating in an important discussion (which is not about gravity and balls, but about MM and the Church).

I have noticed you still have not responded to my query to you about your paying for the Marinol you believe I can take if I need MM. You also did not respond to my point that Marinol is not indicated for pain control, is exorbitantly expensive, and therefore is not an option.

You also did not reply to my discussion about your mean-spirited, uncharitable parody of language usage among poorly educated people. As I pointed out then, you insulted my family.

You also ignored the facts that I am already taking medication much stronger than marijuana, and that your “Dope Store” scenario doesn’t pass muster. Your “concern” about those of us who may use MM and then move onto stronger drugs is extremely simplistic. As I noted before, I am *already *taking stronger drugs.

Why is it that you ignore so much? Your world is so simple, Ed, so black and white. There are no grey areas in your world. MM is bad. The people who use MM don’t need to take it because they can take Marinol. Those who use MM will go onto stronger drugs.

You need a reality check. Let me please repeat (because you don’t seem to hear): Marinol is not used to treat pain. It is used as an anti-emetic and sometimes to stimulate appetite. In other words, Ed, MARINOL DOES NOT HELP THOSE IN CHRONIC PAIN.

I didn’t want to return to the forum. I am very ill at the present time. But I checked this thread to see what was going on and what I found is a forum member who doesn’t even have the courtesy to quote me correctly. DO NOT DO THAT TO ME AGAIN.

I’m not strong enough to fight with you, Ed, and I have no desire to do so. But I get very angry when I see such a lack of compassion and intellectual capacity in any human being - the lack of compassion and intellectual capacity you show in your posts I quoted and responded to earlier.

We are supposed to be the good guys - the ones who love everyone; the ones who help those who are in pain and suffering. What happened to your compassion? What happened to your empathy?

I honestly don’t think you have the capacity to comprehend how much pain many, many people suffer with daily, nor do I believe you care. I am very tired. I’ve been living with degenerative disc disease for sixteen years and with temporomandibular joint disorder pain for several decades. ***I HURT AND I AM SO TIRED OF HURTING. I DON’T LIVE. I EXIST. ALL I’M WAITING FOR IS TO DIE SO THAT THE PAIN WILL STOP.

AND I AM NOT GOING TO LET AN IMMORAL LAW STOP ME FROM DOING WHAT I AM SUPPOSED TO DO - TO ACTUALIZE MYSELF AND TRY TO BRING SOME NEEDED CHANGES INTO SOCIETY.

YOU ARE NOT HELPING.***
God bless,
Ed
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This is one of my least favorite type of posts.
Insult.
Insult.
Insult.
God bless.
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And somehow that “God bless” at the end is supposed to make it all OK. But it doesn’t. It doesn’t erase your mockery, lack of compassion, and confusion about scientific method. It seems rather empty to me; just something you throw in at the end without really thinking about it.

I don’t believe it means a thing.
 
I would like to make an addition to my prior post.

It’s possible that Marinol, either alone or mixed with other medications, may become indicated for pain relief. I have mixed feelings about this.

The major problem I have is that I could not afford it. There is no way on God’s green earth that I can come up with several hundred dollars a month to pay for it. I can’t do it.

But I can grow a plant and learn how to use the buds and leaves and brew them into a tea and maybe it would help me.

Why would it be morally acceptable for a pharmaceutical company to charge an outrageous amount of money for a product that I can obtain for close to free?

It does not make sense.

It makes me think there is something else going on here besides pain relief and that something else is profit. Pharmaceutical companies will receive no profit if I and others grow marijuana to be used for pain relief.

And money is so much more important than the alleviation of severe chronic pain. Isn’t it?
 
Edwest2, I am waiting for your responses to the points I made regarding your posts. I notice you have time to post on several other threads, but for some reason you ignore this one. Is this your normal behavior - post a couple of uncharitable posts and then just leave and never return?

It makes me think you can’t respond and/or you agree completely with what I have stated.

How do you think that makes you look to the people who are reading this thread?

tick tock…tick tock…tick tock…
 
thistle said:
That doesn’t make it right!!

Abortion is already legal. Are you saying that makes it right?
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Abortion = murder of the innocent
Smoking/vaporizing/eating weed = relief from bothersome or painful symptoms or simply a way to relax and watch a movie or listen to music.

No moral equivalence.

Granted, there is a lot of violence involved in the weed trade, but that’s 100% a function of its illegality. I’ve recently obtained a doctor’s recommendation and have no problem going to obtain my medical weed. I feel no fear of being shot or mugged and the operators of the dispensary have only to worry about people trying to come steal their product because it has high street value. Dispensaries sell high quality marijuana which is generally grown indoors (some is grown outdoors, and they’ll tell you if you ask) under highly controlled conditions, not “skank weed” (which kids nowadays are calling “stress”). Remove the illegality and the street value will fall quickly as the existing supply can easily meet the demand.
 
Qoeleth said:
Intoxication is sinful, because it is a way of evading reality. Cigarettes do not cause intoxication. Alcohol (if in moderation) does not produce intoxication.

But there is no way you can smoke dope without aiming to be stoned.

It is not a serious sin, of course, and most of us have used it at one stage of life.

But ask yourself this, if you had a teenage child, or a younger brother or sister, would you encourage them to smoke hash? Probably not. Well the exact same reasons you would give them apply also to you.
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Yes, some strains will cause one to become “stoned” but others can give a relaxing effect without affecting the ability to think clearly. I have a doctor’s recommendation for medical marijuana for two reasons: first, I have a form of arthritis that some strains help with the pain. For that, I would use a stronger strain that can give a “stoned” effect. The key is to know how much to use to get the relief you need.

I also suffer from major depression. Now, I could take a heavy-duty petroleum-based drug that will change my brain chemistry but what happens when I run out of these meds due to lack of money? We’ve all read stories of people going crazy because their brain chemistry is out of whack due to these hard, brain altering drugs (antidepressants). On the other hand, there is a particular strain of medical marijuana that is VERY effective for helping me in using behavioral-cognitive techniques for dealing with depression. It allows me to relax, slow down my thought processes, write down the problematic thoughts and work them through the techniques that I’ve learned. Without the mild, relaxing effects of the medical marijuana, this would be next to impossible…I know, I’ve tried it.
 
OraLabora said:
It may help to steer this discussion to know that not all physicians agree that medicinal marijuana is necessary or desirable.

Many eminent physicians believe that proper use of existing legal pain control drugs are sufficient, and that the issue is insufficient training into their use.
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You mean meds that are supposed to be taken until you (1) vomit or (2) have diarrhea or (3) get relief (usually last)? How about the meds that list death as a possible side effect. How about meds that reorganize brain chemistry to the extent that an absence of the drug can cause psychosis? Do you mean these things?
 
prodigalson12 said:
It’s legal when it’s prescribed, so that’s not a good argument for that matter, regardless of it’s origin, natural or man made.

There is a lot of scandal and corruption going on with the pharmaceutical companies and hospitals, entirely since there is a lot of money at stake. Staff get many direct perks from the companies selling medication to them, ask any doctor hooked up to a lie detector, they’ll agree.
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Interestingly, in California, at least, doctors who provide recommendations for medical marijuana cannot talk about dosage or where to obtain the medicine. There’s no financial stake in whether or not the patient uses the recommendation.
 
stringbeanduck said:
Well you sure didn’t indicate that, because that statement seemed to be in close relation with the one about dead brain cells. And even so I’m sure John89 is well aware of the temporary mental effects from marijuana, which leads me to believe he was refering to long term affects.
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That’s what I got, too. Yes, in the short term, most strains of marijuana will cause mental impairment, but in the long term, not so much.
 
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