Catholic Church founded by Jesus?

[Dorothy]

I do not believe that Glenn is trying to start a fight here.

God bless you and all of us!

 

[BartholomewB]

Yes. Read an article that distinguishes from Latin use (universal) and the Greek katholikos (throughout the whole).

One is more inclusive/exclusive while the Greek not so much. That is one can take a sectarian view (the Latin-one turn of a compass, you are either in the circle or without), or the Greek - thru out whole (world)

Two brief points about that HuffPost article you linked to.

1. It’s eight years old.

2. The “one turn of a compass” explanation for the origin of the words “universe” and “universal” is misleading. It is true that the English words “universe” and “universal” are derived from the Latin universus, which in turn is formed from unum, one, and the verb vertere, to turn. In Latin, universus, literally “one turn,” contrasts with diversus, literally “two turns.” The author of the article seems to be confusing one with the other. Neither universus in Latin nor “universe” in English ever had the sense of one part of the whole, “inside the circle,” contrasting with another part, “outside the circle”. That concept might conceivably correspond to diversus, but never to its opposite, universus.

 

[Glenn]

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Glenn]

Technically it is not knowledge that saves us. Church is Ark of Salvation outside of which there is no Salvation… however that just means that everybody saved is automatically accepted into Catholic Church (all Saints are Catholic, but they didn’t have to be Catholic during life). However it is still Church of Christ through which Christ saves us.

Yes, one of the things I find difficult to convey to my Protestant friends is that more and more “information” is not what saves us. One popular Protestant preacher who is becoming influential in the Southern Baptist Church has written a book called The Nine Marks of a Healthy Church. There is a Nine Marks web site, an annual Nine Marks Conference each year at Southeastern Seminary, etc. But what this preacher considers the first and most important mark of a healthy church is Expositional Preaching.

All I can do is shake my head. I would rather say that a healthy church is “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.”

One of the questions I am asking myself right now is: Are we in the Church because we are in Christ, or are we in Christ because we are in the Church? I understand that the Church is the Body of Christ, but I am not sure at this point how to understand that. I love Augustine, but I wrestle with his statement, which I know is consistent with Catholic teaching, that in the Eucharist, “we become the Body of Christ.” I think I understand how the Church arrives at this position, and I appreciate its understanding of the Eucharist as the real presence of Christ, but I feel like I need to steer clear of anything that could appear to suggest that we somehow become God. Maybe I am not fully understanding what Augustine was saying.

 

[Glenn]

One of the questions I am asking myself right now is: Are we in the Church because we are in Christ, or are we in Christ because we are in the Church? I understand that the Church is the Body of Christ, but I am not sure at this point how to understand that. I love Augustine, but I wrestle with his statement, which I know is consistent with Catholic teaching, that in the Eucharist, “we become the Body of Christ.” I think I understand how the Church arrives at this position, and I appreciate its understanding of the Eucharist as the real presence of Christ, but I feel like I need to steer clear of anything that could appear to suggest that we somehow become God. Maybe I am not fully understanding what Augustine was saying.

This article did a really good job of addressing my concern:

Are We Gods?

 

[goout]

How do we know that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus?

Let me ask the question in a more pointed way:
Did Jesus in fact found a Church? Is Jesus the head of a real community? Or is Jesus just a teacher of ethics, more or less followed by loosely connected groups of followers making their own claims?

It all boils down to Christology.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

feel like I need to steer clear of anything that could appear to suggest that we somehow become God.

Whole point of our Earthly life is that we do become “gods”. “Ye are gods” (from Psalm 82:6).

In Eastern Christianity (Eastern Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy) there is term “Theosis”. It means something as “Deification” or “becoming god”. Our life is meant to be a road in which we do become “perfect like our Heavenly Father” as St. Paul puts it. Of course, we will never become God- we will never become Holy Trinity. But we will continually get closer. Reward in Heaven, what we call Beatific Visions, is that we will continually come closer and closer to God (and it will never end because God is infinite and we are finite). Early Church Fathers did emphasize that we ought to not become “like Christ” but “Christ himself”. We ought to not just imitate but also become Christ in our daily lives. None of this means we are Divine- it just means we can partake in Divine Nature through Holy Trinity that allows us to.

This article did a really good job of addressing my concern:

Ah, I noticed that after I wrote my post. It’s great explanation.

 

[mcq72]

Two brief points about that HuffPost article you linked to.

Thank you. Yes, the article begs some questions. He admits catholic can mean universal, then goes on to say it should mean thru out whole I think. Had to read a few times. I wondered if author was a " liberal", not liking distinctions. I do believe in circle, and “in” and an “out” of the kingdom, a child of Satan or a child of the Promise, of God, beginning in the Garden expulsion. But I like his idea of a truer meaning to " catholic", that I think some protestants hold (more universal approach to who is in and who is not, not based on sect). Fascinating…appreciate (name removed by moderator)ut…not sure why catholic and not universal is used in creed, if indeed if they mean same thing…to me, if you are apostolic you are holy, unified, and catholic (thru out world?)…it seems like you can be the others and not necesarily apostolic.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

not sure why catholic and not universal is used in creed, if indeed if the mean same thing

In my country, “universal” (literal translation) was used. However it denoted some problems with people thinking it means that not only Catholics are True Church so it was changed to “Catholic”.

 

[BartholomewB]

I don’t know, and haven’t attempted to find out, what the author’s motivation was. I just think he’s fantasizing. The whole story of different meanings of the Latin adjective universalis and the Greek adjective katholikos is a fabrication. In ancient Greece and Rome, both words meant the same thing.

 

[Glenn]

Did Jesus in fact found a Church? Is Jesus the head of a real community? Or is Jesus just a teacher of ethics, more or less followed by loosely connected groups of followers making their own claims?

It all boils down to Christology.

Yes, Jesus did found His Church, and yes, He is the Head of His Church, His Body. And no, he was not just a teacher of ethics who was followed by loosely connected groups of followers making their own claims. So I think you are right that the question is intrinsically related to our understanding of Christology, of Christ’s Body.

Protestants tend to answer the question from the perspective of Christ’s Mystical Body, which they consider to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic (at least those denominations that adhere to the Apostolic and Nicene Creeds). They believe that the visible Church is a mixture of wheat and tares. But the Mystical Body of Christ, consisting of only the truly redeemed, is understood to be one. The unredeemed have no part in this Mystical Body, His true Church, which he founded.

But I think that Christ desires us to be visibly united as well, and the only explanation I have for all of the division is our sinfulness. If Christ has indeed founded a Church that he sovereignly maintains, in spite of our sinfulness, as visibly one, I think the only logical candidate is the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[mcq72]

The whole story of different meanings of the Latin adjective universalis and the Greek adjective katholikos is a fabrication

Can a Jesuit literary scholar fabricate lol? (The research for article was a 1990 Jesuit article)…or would a Franciscan misrepresent a Jesuit lol?

 

[BartholomewB]

The same thought occurred to me. I am making inquiries on specialized websites. I’ll get back to you in due course. In the meantime, I suspect Ong’s original statement, whatever it was, may have been misinterpreted in some way. Unfortunately Ong is no longer around to answer questions.

 

[mcq72]

is Jesus just a teacher of ethics, more or less followed by loosely connected groups of followers making their own claims?

Strawman?

Pretty sure any group, community, church make their own claims of being apostolic, holy, even catholic, and a strong oneness that is hopefully not loose but strong in the baptism / rebirth into Christ.

It all boils down to Christology.

We have been over this. It boils down to something else for we believe in same Christology. It is more about how the now invisible Christ, and the Holy Spirit visibly manifest their leadership and headship in the visible body thru sundry offices and giftings.

 

[Buzzard3]

How do we know that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus

For the first 1000 years of Christianity there was only one Church - the Catholic Church. If this was not the Church founded by Jesus, what Church was?

 

[Buzzard3]

If the original Church was not the Catholic Church, what Church was?

 

[Montrose]

What other “universal” Church was there?

 

[Justin_Mary]

We have been over this. It boils down to something else for we believe in same Christology.

Not exactly.

 

[mcq72]

Not exactly.( we having same Christology)

If you mean Protestant run offs, correct ( JW’s, Mormons etc.).

Yet if I mean myself and goout then the same.

If you mean His nature is enveloped in a head office as opposed to presbyter leadership or councils being supreme etc., or in sacramental understanding, etc., etc…if all this is Christology, expanding the definition, then correct, we are " not exactly".

 

[mcq72]

If the original Church was not the Catholic Church, what Church was?

I think what was critiqued was the statement of only one (Catholic) church for a thousand years, not what was the " original church".

As for myself, I inherited all church HIStory, Orthodox, Protestant, not just Catholic, and various runoffs…all to be discerned and gleaned for His absolute truth and spirit.

So we look at today, and rightly rule it by what was also " yesterday", even at the beginning.

There is no once right (at the beginning) always right (today) by anyone prudent in the faith. Such eventual examination and dependency is Spirit led.