Catholic Church founded by Jesus?

[Traddy1962]

I’m implying that if you ask Siri who founded the Catholic Church, it will reply that Jesus founded it. At least last time I asked, it did.

 

[Glenn]

Apparently, you have an axe to grind. You do as you wish, regardless of who you offend.

I am honestly seeking to understand the Catholic position here. If, in fact, the Catholic Church is the one and only Church founded by Jesus, then I want to know that. But I need to understand the evidence. And I don’t simply need someone to tell me that there is evidence. I need to be shown the evidence. And if you can’t accept the fact that I merely want to know the truth of the matter, then again, I don’t need to hear from you.

 

[Glenn]

’m implying that if you ask Siri who founded the Catholic Church, it will reply that Jesus founded it. At least last time I asked, it did.

I thought you were referring to some Hindu guru or something.

 

[BartholomewB]

I’m not sure why this is so confusing.

And I’m not sure why you find our answers so confusing. Outside the historical sources there can be no evidence. Or do you think there can be?

 

[Stephen_says]

It seems to me that the OP wants a list posted here of specific direct quotes from the sources that show the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ

 

[Glenn]

Outside the historical sources there can be no evidence. Or do you think there can be?

This is nothing but a terminology problem. I agree totally that outside of the historical sources, there can be no evidence. We want the historical evidence. We get to the evidence by reading the sources. But the sources are not the evidence. They provide us with the evidence by what they said. I want to know what they said that leads us to the conclusion that Jesus founded the Catholic Church.

 

[Glenn]

It seems to me that the OP wants a list posted here of specific direct quotes from the sources that show the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ

Yes. That is all that I’m asking for. Thank you. If someone asks what the Bible teaches, we go to the text. If we wants to know what Clement or Ignatius and Irenaeus taught, we go to the text.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It seems to me that the OP wants a list posted here of specific direct quotes from the sources that show the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ

Something along the lines of a document or stone tablet reading: "Hi, this is Jesus. I state unequivocally and in writing that the church I am founding is the Catholic Church. Not the Baptist Church, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church, or anything else other than the Catholic Church. Accept no substitutes. Signed, Jesus. " with all 12 Apostles as Witnesses.

 

[Pattylt]

I recommend starting with the Didache. It’s a sort of manual for the early church. Of course, it wasn’t referred to as The Catholic Church back then. It was just the church…or actually churches acting in unison with each other.

It could be argued that there were other Christianities in existence. Many writings by the Early Church Fathers describe dealing with these heresies…often pointing out their error and why the Fathers own churches were correct. Within those writings you will find the comments and practices still recognizable today within the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

If you are looking for specific practices then it would be easiest to list one or two and many here can explain where that specific practice came from and the biblical passages that support it as well as how early it is known to have been practiced.

 

[Glenn]

Something along the lines of a document or stone tablet reading: "Hi, this is Jesus. I state unequivocally and in writing that the church I am founding is the Catholic Church. Not the Baptist Church, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church, or anything else other than the Catholic Church. Accept no substitutes. Signed, Jesus. " with all 12 Apostles as Witnesses.

I only asked the question. The first response was to look at the historical evidence. So then I said: OK, what is that evidence? If there is something better that you would suggest, please do so.

Again, here is another representative of the Catholic Church that simply wants to be sarcastic and impugn my motives rather than attempting to understand a serious question.

 

[Glenn]

Many writings by the Early Church Fathers describe dealing with these heresies…often pointing out their error and why the Fathers own churches were correct. Within those writings you will find the comments and practices still recognizable today within the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Thank you.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The very first guy to answer you mentioned the Didache and other writings of the sort PattyIt also mentioned. You seemed to reject that response and want some other kind of evidence.

I’m not sure why you rejected adamhovey1988’s answer, but now are thanking PattyIt who said pretty much exactly the same thing. It may be that you didn’t realize what was actually in those writings being recommended to you, or there was just some big misunderstanding. In any event, it seems like the question was answered in the first response you got. Leaving a lot of other people wondering exactly what more you were seeking.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

But it still seems as if some are confusing the historical sources with the actual history. We go to the sources to find the history.

I don’t think you realize how confused this sentence is. Or, I think you intend something not conveyed by the words you’ve chosen. When it comes to matters of history, the historical record is our only choice in sources. We can’t hop in a time machine and go back to witness it first-hand. We have the traditions of the Church, we have the writings of the Fathers, we have the extra-Biblical histories recorded by the likes of Tertullian. We have the witness of the pagans around the Church (an excellent book on this is Hostile Wtinesses)… could you maybe elaborate more on what you’re looking for specifically, because so far your request just seems kinda vague.

 

[Glenn]

Individual statements, even though not used out of context, but without context, rarely satisfy anyone who is not already on board. This is true of scripture and its true of early church writings. So I could go and find a few statements out of those documents, but I doubt you would be convinced (assuming you are not convinced right now), and I think you know that to be the case. If one wants to read the Church Father’s, one will get a real sense that the early Church was most certainly Catholic. Even without doing that, most of us know a few things about the early Church:

• it organized with a hierachy, the Bishop being the head of the Church in a given city and its surrounding area. There were deacons and priests.
• it places a high focus on the Eucharistic celebration
• Baptism was very important for initiation into the Church

Yes, I think these things are helpful–the actual practices of the early Church. I don’t expect, as one comment suggested, things to be written in stone. I know history and reason are important here, but somehow, there must be conviction from the Holy Spirit. Sometimes, however, this conviction comes from something that someone says that seems to be particularly relevant. At this point, I’m just not sure what to believe, but I think I am open to the truth. If the Catholic Church is the one and only Church, then all of the other doctrinal issues automatically resolved…

 

[Pattylt]

It took a few comments from @Glenn to figure out what he was specifically looking for as I think it did other readers. Perhaps even he wasn’t clear what he meant? I just chalk it up to a miscommunication and a bit of uneasiness from a new poster that is Baptist.

@Glenn, please understand that your initial post was a bit confusing and we have had many experiences of non Catholics coming here and being deceptive on their reasons for their questions. You deserve the benefit of the doubt and forgive us our suspicions.

The type of quotes you seem to be looking for are found in the quoted links to the Early Fathers writings. I’m still not sure exactly what type of quotes you are looking for as it depends on what topic or area of early Christianity you seek…but you will find the Catholic Church in there. Have fun in your readings!

 

[Glenn]

could you maybe elaborate more on what you’re looking for specifically, because so far your request just seems kinda vague.

adanhovey1988 initially responded, “historical EVIDENCE… FROM such and such SOURCES.”

Then I responded, OK, what is the evidence?

Then I got the responses from others saying that the sources ARE the evidence.

That was confusing to me, because all I was being told was WHO was providing the evidence, and not what the actual nature of the evidence was. So yes, in one sense, the sources are the evidence. But in another sense, they are the SOURCES for the evidence. We still need to know what that evidence is.

I don’t know any other way to clarify this.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

not what the actual nature of the evidence was

The nature of the evidence is their writings, their experiences, their teachings, the witness of their lives… is that what you’re looking for, because you’re still not making a lot of sense, sorry.

We still need to know what that evidence is.

Then you need to go read the ECFs, the didache, Tertullian, etc.

Are you asking us to post this stuff here?

The ECF’s spoke frequently of a unified church, and Peter’s primacy as the Pope (though the word pope wasn’t around yet, the office of the papacy and its primacy were clearly understood.)

https://www.catholic.com/tract/peters-primacy

Is this the sort of thing you’re looking for? If so, there’s way more of it than we could ever hope to post here. That’s why I’ve directed you to a couple of books that’ll hep you out.

 

[Glenn]

The type of quotes you seem to be looking for are found in the quoted links to the Early Fathers writings. I’m still not sure exactly what type of quotes you are looking for as it depends on what topic or area of early Christianity you seek…but you will find the Catholic Church in there.

I agree that reading the early Church Fathers can help to answer my question. And this is the particular turn the discussion took after the initial response. I don’t know, however, that this is the only way to answer the question. So I tried to phrase the question as simply as I knew how: “How do we know…?”

Things that turn the lights on for one individual might not work for another. Again, I’m sure that whatever convinces me, it won’t be pure reason, because in our search for truth, the Holy Spirit must be involved.

 

[OddBird]

Unless I know what they actually said, the fact that they existed is worthless.

That’s quite a subjectivist worldview - as if things didn’t exist as long as you don’t know they exist.

The evidence is there, whether you know of it or not.

 

[BartholomewB]

to be sarcastic and impugn my motives rather than attempting to understand a serious question.

I don’t think you are asking a serious question. Do you expect us to comb through the New Testament, the Didache, the Epistle of Clement, Irinaeus, Eusebius, and all the rest of them, and cut and paste a few paragraphs that we hope you may kindly condescend to find acceptable as what you call “actual evidence”? Or, if that’s not what you’re asking, then what are you asking, exactly?