Catholic Church founded by Jesus?

[VeryBlessed]

I’m not disputing the need for some visible manifestation of the Church, but we know that there is a mystical body of Christ that includes everyone in the kingdom, including those outside of Church of Rome. Is that sufficient? Is that the unity Christ prayed for.

It is definitely discouraging to see all of the disunity and division, and I have tried to focus on those things that have united us, traditional orthodoxy and the creeds as the foundation of those things that we know to be true. I do not consider myself as part of one denomination or another, because there is just so much division, I cannot figure out who is right. Each group has its arguments, and they are often biblically based.

Yes yes! I could have written this myself. FYI I’m a revert, back in the church after decades in really good evangelical churches.

When the subject of unity came up amongst my evangelical brothers, I would often hear a response talking about an unseen mystical unity between believers, something like you’ve referred to. I think there’s truth in that. But I don’t think God would have been satisfied with a mere mystical unity, especially before the invention of the printing press, when no believer could be expected to have a Bible of their own.

So it comes down to a question of teaching authority. Did God by his Holy Spirit create a church with teaching authority, so as to shepherd people into the most correct interpretation of Scripture, especially in the many long years before the printing press was invented? And even in the years since, it’s wonderful we all have Bibles of our own, but as you said, how are we supposed to know which theological stand on any given issue is the correct one? Would God have left us so shepherdless?

Even more indefensible is what I used to hear among some evangelicals, that the true church died. In the year 100, near 300, the death of the last apostle. That is a supreme insult to the character and the heart of God. Jesus said, “lo I am with you always, even until the end of age.” To me, “always” does not mean taking a 1500 year vacation and thus depriving all those people of access to the fullness of truth.

Love your questions, glad you’re asking.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

This seems to be a precedent for an authoritative Church, not just an authoritative Book.

Exactly my point. Even Pharisees who rejected Christ had authority from God to teach. Now let us connect that with following Bible passage:
Matthew 21:33-45
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

What this tells us that Pharisees did posses authority from God to teach authoritatively. But God took their authority away when they killed His Son and gave it to different nation- Priestly nation, the Church of Christ.

Does one Church have it ALL right?

Creeds that are held as authoritative by almost any Christian denomination state belief in “One” Church. St. Paul often wrote to local Churches but then he said “Church (note the singular) is Pillar and Foundation of Truth”. We know St. Paul was aware that there are some heresies rising among Christians and that there are those who do not act Christ-like too. So what did he mean by saying such strong phrase in connection with One Church? Well, my understanding is that he meant that True Church of Christ has it ALL right

I’m not disputing the need for some visible manifestation of the Church, but we know that there is a mystical body of Christ that includes everyone in the kingdom, including those outside of Church of Rome.

How do we know this?

 

[Glenn]

So it comes down to a question of teaching authority. Did God by his Holy Spirit create a church with teaching authority, so as to shepherd people into the most correct interpretation of Scripture, especially in the many long years before the printing press was invented?

Yes, if we can believe that the Word of God is inspired and infallible, why is it a stretch to believe that God would be any less concerned about his people, His Body? But a stretch it is for a Protestant, because every doctrine with which he may have difficulty must be accepted. Protestants are used to picking and choosing what they believe and what they don’t believe. That is what I am used to, and that is why I am questioning my own willingness to submit to authority. I am Bible-believing, and I go to the Bible as my authority, but in many respects, I have been my own interpreter and therefore my own authority.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

Protestants are used to picking and choosing what they believe and what they don’t believe. That is what I am used to, and that is why I am questioning my own willingness to submit to authority. I am Bible-believing, and I go to the Bible as my authority, but in many respects, I have been my own interpreter and therefore my own authority.

That is a great insight and very key point. We might say that the virtue of Obedience is given to authority. Maybe it is said “I am obedient to the Scripture” with the belief that whatever we read will will interpret and understand, and then comply. But as you say, we’re usually struggling to make sense - when it “makes sense to us”, then we accept it and we comply. But we end up being our own authority - we’re obedient to ourself.

So often, as a Catholic, God teaches us something we don’t want to hear. It might take months of prayer to finally accept it. There’s no way we were being obedient to our own view. We had to change to the authority of the Church. That process of changing is our on-going conversion that makes us Saints.
We have the great Saints to observe also - and we can become like them, by submission to the same authority that they recognized. It wasn’t just the book, but it was the power, given by God, to the authoritative magisterium (teachers) that He appointed.

 

[VeryBlessed]

Protestants are used to picking and choosing what they believe and what they don’t believe. That is what I am used to, and that is why I am questioning my own willingness to submit to authority. I am Bible-believing, and I go to the Bible as my authority, but in many respects, I have been my own interpreter and therefore my own authority.

I know! It is so ironic Glenn. In rejecting papal authority, in a sense, each protestant sets himself up to be his own pope with his own magisterium. What I love about being back in the Catholic Church is its bigness. It’s so much bigger than my mind. I can submit even to those things I don’t really fully understand yet, because God himself is so much bigger than I will ever be able to take in. We will find him endlessly fascinating forever. Catholicism seems to embrace the bigness of God, and frees me from my own biases and blind spots. It is the ultimate trust-able pastor. And there is a lot of dying to self in accepting the church’s authority. That’s not a bad thing for us who are so prone to pride.

 

[Glenn]

Creeds that are held as authoritative by almost any Christian denomination state belief in “One” Church. St. Paul often wrote to local Churches but then he said “Church (note the singular) is Pillar and Foundation of Truth”.

Of course, the Protestant understanding here is that the One Church is the mystical Body of Christ, and not a single visible manifestation. But as you say, the passage in 1 Timothy that the “Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth” is certainly a powerful argument for the authority of the Church, and therefore a visible manifestation, and also of the Bible as belonging to the Church and not standing alone.

 

[Glenn]

So often, as a Catholic, God teaches us something we don’t want to hear. It might take months of prayer to finally accept it.

It seems that there is more appreciation in the Catholic Church of submission, that “the way down is the way up.” I do think there is this understanding among Protestants, but far less developed.

But born-again Protestants do have the Holy Spirit, and when they come to Scripture with a willingness to let the Scripture speak, the same thing happens. There is something in the Word that they struggle with, but knowing that it is God’s Word, they submit to it. Eventually, they come to understand it because in submitting to the Word, they have submitted to the mind of God.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

But born-again Protestants do have the Holy Spirit, and when they come to Scripture with a willingness to let the Scripture speak, the same thing happens. There is something in the Word that they struggle with, but knowing that it is God’s Word, they submit to it. Eventually, they come to understand it because in submitting to the Word, they have submitted to the mind of God.

Yes, exactly. That’s the theory and it seems true on first glance. The Born Again Christian has sincerity and willingness and openness. I have seen it many times. They will not just openly tell a lie to themselves or others. But the simple fact is that the process of “discerning the Spirit” is in no way as simple or clear as the Born Again idea would give us. The possibility of an individual, even very sincere, searching the Scriptures for being deceived is very high. That is why we have pastors. Otherwise, there would be little need. For Protestants, however, the pastor cannot be marked by Divine Authority. It’s normally by scholarship. The pastor graduated from a seminary, and the belief is that the Holy Spirit guided the seminary program, so the pastor is “annointed”.
But in your search for evidence, you have to look at this. There’s nobody in the Protestant seminary who can say, outside of subjective feeling, that they have authority from God to teach and ordain. There is no apostolic succession. All the authority is just a personal feeling, some logic, some scholarship. That gives us the church of scholars, or else just the church of charismatics - where the authority is in visible events like miracles and prophecies.
That latter view does help people - they see the pastor work a miracle, or they themselves see something. They find God’s guidance that way.
In the end though, eventually, it doesn’t work. Charismatic gifts of some kind are found in denominations with radically different beliefs. That cannot be the way to discern the Church that Jesus founded.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

But born-again Protestants do have the Holy Spirit, and when they come to Scripture with a willingness to let the Scripture speak, the same thing happens. There is something in the Word that they struggle with, but knowing that it is God’s Word, they submit to it. Eventually, they come to understand it because in submitting to the Word, they have submitted to the mind of God.

Problem is that we often misinterpret those things… it is actually so easy to do this. So many heresies through history are because of misinterpretation. Arius thought he is correct and that he discovered True Word of God when he claimed there is no Trinity. I remember many things I’ve read in the Bible that I thought meant something else but it was because I did not understand the cultural references behind it nor the real meaning. I was still new to faith, but even now I often misunderstand things that are written not only in the Bible but also in different documents of the Church- and they are much closer to us culturally than Bible is.

 

[Glenn]

I have to take some time off. But I appreciate all of the comments. It took awhile to get to this point in the discussion, but I think a lot of my questions are being addressed by folks who are identifying with some of my experiences and thinking. So I want to thank you all for that, and apologize to everyone whom I have in any way offended during this discussion.

I have been wrestling with the issue of the Catholic Church for some time. I have read the entire Catechism, and I am now reading Peter Kreeft’s book Catholic Christianity, a wonderful synopsis of the Catechism. In many ways, I have come to a much better understanding of issues that I once found difficult to accept, like the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Sainthood, the Real Presence of the Eucharist, etc.

But the biggest problem for me in entering the Church probably comes down to one of fear. In my Protestant upbringing, I have been taught that many of the doctrines of the Catholic Church are idolatrous. When I try to defend some of the Catholic doctrines to my Protestant friends, they appear to consider me like I’m a heretic.

At this point, I really don’t know who is right. I’m asking God to show me, because I can’t figure it out on my own. I really need to pray and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That is the only way I know to proceed. Many things are coming together in my mind, but God really needs to capture my heart in this matter.

But as far as questions go, I think this issue of the Catholic Church itself is the most pivotal for me. If the Catholic Church is the one true Church, the Church explicitly founded by Christ, and infallible, then I think all of these other issues will go away. I don’t know if or when I will be able to make that leap.

 

[julietteamdg]

Hello Glenn, I’ll be praying for you,

Obedience is one of the greatest virtues!

The problem with protestants listening and discerning the Holy Spirit by themselves, as you said, is that we are VERY easy to deceive, the devil is always around, leading us away from the Truth. I can read a bible passage, and struggle over it, and discern it until I feel the Holy Spirit has guided me to the truth, but how do I know that’s what that actually meant? One protestant will do the same thing and come up with a different interpretation and so will another and so forth. Which is the truth? They can’t ALL be right, then that would mean there are many truths, which can’t be right since God is Truth, there is but one truth.

 

[Lucy_1]

I am honestly seeking to understand the Catholic position here. If, in fact, the Catholic Church is the one and only Church founded by Jesus, then I want to know that. But I need to understand the evidence. And I don’t simply need someone to tell me that there is evidence. I need to be shown the evidence.

The problem is that there is a lot of evidence, so it’s difficult to reproduce it here, as in it would take a lot of time and efforts to type up all the quotes.

I became Catholic by reading the very early church fathers and believe me, the last thing in the world I wanted to be was Catholic, so they are very persuasive evidence.

 

[adamhovey1988]

The sources are not the evidence

Did you bother READING them? If not, don’t tell me such nonsense.

 

[Theo520]

Those are the historical sources. What is the actual evidence?

Sorry, we deleted the CCTV recordings from that era

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Sorry, we deleted the CCTV recordings from that era

Let’s not bully a man who mustered enough courage and love for God to come and ask us about our Faith in pursuit of Truth. He is considering Catholic Church because he is under impression it may be true- he wasn’t born into Faith and as many of us know path into the Church isn’t easy.

I myself don’t quite get the source vs evidence thing but I guess it meant that he needs direct evidence not exactly “just read Church Fathers” kind of stuff. That’s perfectly fine too. Conversation is going nicely, he apologized and said he didn’t meant to offend anyone (which I wholeheartedly believe) and as such all of us should be over that issue.

 

[Justin_Mary]

But as far as questions go, I think this issue of the Catholic Church itself is the most pivotal for me. If the Catholic Church is the one true Church, the Church explicitly founded by Christ, and infallible, then I think all of these other issues will go away. I don’t know if or when I will be able to make that leap.

Stay open to the truth, whatever that might be. I originally thought the same, the authenticity of the Catholic Church being the Church founded by Christ was my stumbling block. Then I came to an understanding about the Eucharist that didn’t make sense outside the Catholic Church. Once I came to that understanding everything else just fell into place, or wasn’t a “big deal” anymore.

Pray, hope, & don’t worry.

 

[Horton]

But the biggest problem for me in entering the Church probably comes down to one of fear. In my Protestant upbringing, I have been taught that many of the doctrines of the Catholic Church are idolatrous. When I try to defend some of the Catholic doctrines to my Protestant friends, they appear to consider me like I’m a heretic.

At this point, I really don’t know who is right. I’m asking God to show me, because I can’t figure it out on my own. I really need to pray and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That is the only way I know to proceed. Many things are coming together in my mind, but God really needs to capture my heart in this matter.

But as far as questions go, I think this issue of the Catholic Church itself is the most pivotal for me. If the Catholic Church is the one true Church, the Church explicitly founded by Christ, and infallible, then I think all of these other issues will go away. I don’t know if or when I will be able to make that leap.

I converted from a Protestant faith. I had never been taught anything negative about the Catholic Church and I am grateful for that. I was open to learning more about the Catholic Church but waited awhile to actually commit to converting. The kicker for me was everything started to just make sense. As a kid in church everything just seemed so random, I couldn’t see what the plan was, couldn’t really see the end goal. I knew I wanted to go to heaven but I really didn’t know how that actually happened. Love God, don’t sin too much, and pray.

In becoming Catholic and really learning about the Triune God, the bible, salvation, it all came together. For me it was the bible that really did it. Learning how to really read the bible, to know who the writer was, who the writer’s audience was, what was the culture. Most of all that to know the message, you need to read the passage, not a couple of verses.

The evidence for the truth of the Catholic Church is in the bible. John 6, The Bread of life Discourse speaks truth, it is the Eucharist. What Church still celebrates the Eucharist? The Wedding Feast at Cana, bringing marriage to the level of a sacrament. Jesus’ teaching on divorce, which Church still does not allow a marriage to be dissolved by man? There are many more, I don’t have time to search them out now and I don’t remember them all. But look at some of the New Testament teachings through a Catholic perspective. You may see the evidence you seek there.

 

[BartholomewB]

For me it was the bible that really did it. Learning how to really read the bible, to know who the writer was, who the writer’s audience was, what was the culture.

That was my experience too.

 

[mcq72]

As mentioned by others, Protestantism is eliminated in this process. Those churches cannot have been the Church founded by Jesus. Their history cannot be traced back to the apostles.

“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet”.

Apostolic is as apostolic does.

What does it mean if other churches smell as sweet, and do as the apostles would?

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you . But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

seems to be a precedent for an authoritative Church, not just an authoritative Book.

I agree. However, many take a blind eye to the flip side, that at times, beware of their leaven (false doctrine). You also did not highlight the rest of the text, about hypocrysy.

“Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees… Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.”

 

[Dorothy]

Many Catholics are well aware of the problems in the Church. They are silently praying, making sacrifices and allowing the Lord to sanctify them.